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Thread: Fitting height troubles with Shamir?

  1. #1
    Rising Star rob.optician's Avatar
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    Smilie Fitting height troubles with Shamir?

    Does anyone have problems with the fitting heights for Shamir progressive lenses?

    I like their products and I know they chose their fitting heights b/c that is what they feel gives the best possible vision.

    The Shamir Genesis in Poly is a min. of 22 mm.!

    It seems like most patients I fit have 17 or 18 - so I could use their short corridor (Shamir Piccolo) but...why use a short corridor when I can use a different prog. lens that fits and is not "short corridor."

    I just want to know if I'm the only one that has issues with their fitting heights....b/c otherwise I really do like their products!!!
    ABOC, NCLC, CPO, FNAO

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    Optical Educator
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    fitting height for Genesis

    Hi Rob,

    It is my understanding that the recommended fitting height for the Shamir Genesis is 19mm, regardless of material.

    For more information, you can visit their website:

    www.shamirlens.com

    : )

    Laurie

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    One of the worst people here
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    So did Shamir change its fitting height just like everyone else?

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    All my different sources show a MFH of 19mm for Genesis. In general, your patients will be happier if you use a short corridor lens for any FH less than 19.5.

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    Rising Star rob.optician's Avatar
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    response

    In Poly the fitting height for Gensis is 22. They have a computer that does some magical calculation and figures out what the best fitting height will be - and for some reason - for Poly it says 22.

    My Shamir rep. was in last week and we have discussed this before - she said to go ahead and fit a little lower and I shouldn't have problems. I don't feel comfortable fitting it lower than what is recommended...any time I have a 22 or higher I am starting to use it more.

    ----
    You said a pt. will be happier any time the fitting height is lower than 19.5 with a short corridor? What about the Comfort of Summit ECP that have an 18 min. fitting height - are you saying the best thing for the patient would be to put them into a short corridor??
    ABOC, NCLC, CPO, FNAO

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    I could never get a straight answer from Shamir as to why the height variance on the Genesis. My Shamir printed info says 19 min., poly 20mm minimum. Ok....why the difference? Is the Poly Genesis a different design? Must be. That is the only thing that makes sense to me. It seems a bit deceitful to me.

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    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Fezz,

    I don't know if the design is different, but it does have a different distance from the fitting cross to the prism/main reference point (2mm) compared to the other materials (4mm).
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
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    www.roberts-optical.com
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    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

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    Sorry for getting slightly off track....

    Robert-

    You make a good point. I wish they would give an answer. Why? I can only guess that it is a different design. I don't see the reason for a different drop from one material to another.


    PS. Why won't Shamir put the Piccolo in Trivex? I have asked repeatedly and have gotten the same response=none! My rep got tired of me asking him to dig up some info as to if and when. He never came thru. Needless to say, I don't ask anymore.....don't use them much now.

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    Master OptiBoarder TLG's Avatar
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    I've used Shamir almost exclusively the past 2 years. My specs jive with Fezz's - 19mm hi for all materials but poly, which is 20mm. I am not aware of the shorter fitting cross of 2mm however.

    I have fit a ton of Piccolo with almost NO complaints, but I'm beginning to feel suspicious about Genesis lately. Seems when I fit it 19 hi nearly everyone complains about having to look right at the very bottom edge to get full reading. I've started changing my 19 hi's to Piccolo or GT2 and have had fewer complaints. I wear the Genesis in a polarized sun and think they're just awesome but can't figure out why patients are having problems with them lately. Also wondering why they don't make the Genesis in poly Transitions.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob.optician View Post
    In Poly the fitting height for Gensis is 22. They have a computer that does some magical calculation and figures out what the best fitting height will be - and for some reason - for Poly it says 22.

    My Shamir rep. was in last week and we have discussed this before - she said to go ahead and fit a little lower and I shouldn't have problems. I don't feel comfortable fitting it lower than what is recommended...any time I have a 22 or higher I am starting to use it more.

    ----
    You said a pt. will be happier any time the fitting height is lower than 19.5 with a short corridor? What about the Comfort of Summit ECP that have an 18 min. fitting height - are you saying the best thing for the patient would be to put them into a short corridor??
    Don't you remember that when the Comfort came out, it had a minimum fitting height of 22 mm? Essilor changed all their fitting heights on their old progressives without actually changing the lens designs.
    My Essilor rep told me that the reason they did that was "Because the Europeans had been fitting these lenses at the new low heights for years and were laughing at us for fitting them in such big frames."

    You can get a lot of good lenses that fit at 18 - 19 mm, but below that, you really need a short corridor lens.
    DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
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    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fezz View Post
    Robert-

    You make a good point. I wish they would give an answer. Why? I can only guess that it is a different design. I don't see the reason for a different drop from one material to another.
    My guess is it's an older design; when Shamir "took off" and expanded their line, they tweaked the optics of the newer materials and used a more industry standard 4mm separation. What they tweaked, if anything, is unknown, although if I had to guess, they may have shortened the corridor a tad or modified the rate of change.

    PS. Why won't Shamir put the Piccolo in Trivex? I have asked repeatedly and have gotten the same response=none! My rep got tired of me asking him to dig up some info as to if and when. He never came thru. Needless to say, I don't ask anymore.....don't use them much now.
    I still use the Trivex Genesis in low plus and minus powers (the lack of aspheric/flatter curves is less of an issue here) but I've stopped using the Piccolo because I can get Trivex in the Unique, Concise, or Summit CD. I would use the Creative (more BCs/flatter curves) but guess what? No Trivex! As a matter of fact, I can't think of any lens company that makes a fully aspheric PAL in Trivex except for Hoya. (Kudos to Hoya and Zeiss for making their lenses with numerous, closely spaced BCs, and for using aspheric/flatter curves across their product lines.)

    By the way, Essilor is telling me that the Physio, and maybe other designs, will be available in Trivex by late spring/early summer, which probably means by the end of the year.

    Regards,
    Roberts Optical Ltd.
    Wauwatosa Wi.
    www.roberts-optical.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

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    The real story on the Genesis Poly !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TLG View Post
    I've used Shamir almost exclusively the past 2 years. My specs jive with Fezz's - 19mm hi for all materials but poly, which is 20mm. I am not aware of the shorter fitting cross of 2mm however.

    I have fit a ton of Piccolo with almost NO complaints, but I'm beginning to feel suspicious about Genesis lately. .
    I discoverd the problems mentioned at least 5 years ago and brought it to the attn: of the President of Shamir personally. We had been doing alot of the poly Genesis and were having problems on reading issues and it then I discovered the real deal.
    THE GENESIS IS NOT THE SAME PRODUCT AS THE REST, IT WAS ANOTHER DESIGN (OLDER) AND BROUGHT TO MARKET BECAUSE THEY LACKED A POLY PRODUCT FOR THE US MARKET AT THE TIME.
    We do 100% non glare and never realized what was going on until we got in a lens with the factory markings and realized the fitting cross was 2mm off from all the other Shamir products and we were fitting them wrong the entire time and the Marketing Director had personally assured me that the layout chart was the same. This caused us aton of re-do's and it is sad to see that after all this time they cannot deliver a consistent message.

    I also just discovered they list blank sizes or the Creation lens in certain base curves and they are actually 5mm smaller than all the printed material. Even the computer at the surfacing lab (using DVI software) was not aware of either discrepency in fitting cross or true lens size.

    To Shamirs credit: they did send me a bunch of coupons to help ease my burden; but they should get the story straight and ensure they distribute accurate information. I used to uses as much Shamir as possible and I now use as little as possible; I was the sale reps largest account and went to almost zero usage when they launched the Creation and we had so many problems with the scratch coating on the front surface. I think the issue has been dealt with.
    The folks at Pech Optical are independent and carry all the major brands of lenses and coatings; they can give you an unbiased opinion of which products offer the most consistency. www.pech.com
    They are friends and the best lab I have ever used; by the way I helped launch Crizal over 10 years ago as a company rep in Upstate NY.
    Craig

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    Thumbs up

    Craig-

    Great post. Thanks for the insight and info.

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    OptiBoard Professional bren_03825's Avatar
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    Shamir Lenses

    Last cont ed seminar I was at, the Shamir rep did a lot of explaining about their lens designs. From what I understand, and anyone here feel free to correct me if I am wrong, Shamir is continuously updating their lens designs. Unlike some other manufacturers, they do not rename their products. Example, the Piccolo that you fit today, is 3 or 4 designs different than the Piccolo that you may have fit 5 years ago. Having not spoke to a Shamir rep, except at cont ed seminars, my best guess would be to try to have your lab rep try to stay on top of any changes, and notify you when they do, or just keep trying to contact Shamir. I haven't used them as often as some other lenses, but I have never had 1 problem with any fit of their lenses.
    ;)

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