There is always talk on here about getting into lens finishing, whats the best edger, you can save such and such, etc. What about taking the next step and opening up your own surfacing lab? I know that it takes more money, more space, more labor, but what are your thoughts? How much more do you really need to invest. You need an generator, finer, polisher, blocker, etc, and the consumables. I know there are those that will speak for and against, lets hear it.
Hey Fezz you should give Paul King a ring. He did all sorts of consulting on this and has a pretty good critera as to howto budget and what not.
Man, I'm a novice here, but I know an LC doesn't see a return on their lab for years. I don't even think in-house edging is worth it when you look at labor, etc, unless you're doing serious volume. For surfacing, you'd either have to be talking really serious volume, or acting as a lab for other locations (whether your own or someone elses). Remember, once you're the lab you're also responsible for warranty.
I am not looking into doing it at my office. I have worked in labs, I know the problems. If you review some of my previous post on in house edging, I am sorta not that hip on it. I make the most money for our office when I am on the dispensing floor. I do some in house, but not much. I am too busy, and feel I am more valuable tending to patients needs and wants.
I am just curious as to what others thoughts and feelings are.
But, this old nogging and gears of mine are always running. I have plenty of optical ideas in the works. ;)
From a financial viewpoint a break even analysis would show you that you would have to do a heck of a lot of lenses in order to make a surfacing lab economically feasible. So, unless you have a large practice you are far better off in outsourcing your work. Another consideration is that retail and manufacturing do require a different “mindset” and seldom do the goals of these two business processes coincide.
That being said, if you are a true Optician you just have to have a lab. There is nothing more rewarding than turning out a pair of lenses that no one else could fabricate or the satisfaction of having those “impossible” scripts referred to you.
This, of course has nothing to do with economics, logistics, insurance or common sense practicality. It is a matter of exceptional craftsmanship and pride in your skill and talent.
And, there doesn’t seem to be too much of that around these days.
I could definately vouch for that, I have some patients for life because I was able to make them -17.00 or higher in an hour (not done all the time). It is nice to have the manufactureing know how, but with MVC and discounters taking over the industry a lab is far from being economically feasable and getting worst by the day. It does start to make sense, when there are multiple offices being served by a lab, and I think that if an optician was business minded they could turn a small lab into a franchise, so their is opportunity there.Originally Posted by rbaker
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I just about choked when I read this post. Trust me, Mr Mitchell is not my Optiboard alias.
Another thing to add to the surfacing decision is that you can not service any and all lenses. #1 you would need a backside coater to do high index materials and #2 you need a distrubtorship for many products that are not given to retail locations....
My two cents.
Adam
What's really held me back from getting into surfacing is the coating concerns. The hard coats and the A/Rs. Unless you invest in good coating equipment, you will still be sending out your work. The investment in the equipment to get good coatings really raises the price of poker. Not to mention the increased cost of time, labor, yield, etc.
fjpod-
So, if you could figure out the coating issue, would you seriously consider it?
At what volume do you think surfacing starts to make sense?
Apart from volume, location is another factor. I did a short stint at a high end shopping centre where people did not want to return in a few days, and the opposition also had a surfacing lab. I doubt it paid in lens costs, but it had to be done to compete. They helped make it more viable by taking in work for a few of their other stores. For most locations it would just not be worth the hassle.
Adam!
I dont know about one company that would not give a distributorship for a retail location! OK! Exept Varilux ...
What kind of pricing will you get is another question!
Last edited by LENNY; 03-05-2007 at 02:19 PM.
The last time I count thew $ spent on surfacing for 1 store it only make sense if you have to have 1hr service to compete. It also depends on the type of product that you sell. Trust me therre is much higher margin on Poly Trans Progressives than on FT28! But you have to stock all those blanks. You would probably have to narrow your progressive lens sales to one or two designs. And if you dont do around 30 of them a day I dont think it worth a hustle.
There are many factors that play into opening up a lab, the first two are how many lens that you sell a week and just as important is what type. If your primary focus is pediatrics, then it would make sense to have a finishing lab with finished stock lens. For a full service lab to make money you have to be doing a large volume of multi focal or other surfaced lens. The biggest problem that people get into is buying too much equipment. For example, why would you buy a generator that is a high production unit, able to surface 350 pair in an 8 hour shift, when you wont do 350 pair in a month? If you run the numbers and it makes sense to have a lab, before you pull that trigger, you better have a good lab person in place. They dont come cheep, and they are not as easy to find as you might think. When I started in the business I didn't know one optician that could not at least edge a lens. Now in this area at least MOST "opticians" couldn't find the power button on that same edger.
Paul:cheers:
hmm..
There is a button to turn on the edger!? I thought it knows you when you come close and turns on by itself! Like anything else that I come close to..:shiner:
You could always move to China. You would at least get the cheap part.
Another hidden expense is inventory (for both finishe and surface labs). Maintaing and managing an inventory is yet another task to deligate to someone in the 'back-room'.
Shipping charges can also kill your profits, especiall if you are trying to be the 'fastest grinder' out there. You either need to partner very closely with one or two manufacturers OR (here comes the plug) look into finding a lab that is a member of Global Optics http://www.globaloptics.com/. Global is a true buying group, in that they actually warehouse the product. Consolidated shipping can save you big bucks... I mean.. Real big bucks. Aside from consolidated billing, Global also offers http://www.lenstock.com/ which will allow you to easily order products AND (yes, and, there's more) offers a FREE inventory manging tool.
That's enough FREE advice for today.
Adam
Adam;
Should we feel FREE to contact you with any questions? ;)
Sure. Why not... adamcherry@cherryopticalinc.com
We've been surfacing for 13 years and edging ever since we started up in 1978. In our market, we got started doing the one day service when the local LC opened up at the nearby mall. Nevermind that at one time there were 9 opticals in the mall at once. We had been edging for quite awhile before that, but suddenly everyone got the 1-hour crazies. Also nevermind that you get a 20% grey tint for sunglasses because that's all they tinted in the specified time.
We do not have a back coater, so we are limited to CR-39 and 1.56 index materials, since they have acceptable backside scratch resistance.That said, we only order out our exotic lenses and ARs.So of course we tend to sell those, but do not pressure anyone to get only what we carry. All of our lens suppliers ship us overnight with very low costs due to their already having shipping contracts.
You of course need a generator, and a couple of finer/polishers. Blocking is either wax (boo! heard many problems) or alloy( boo! dangerous metals!). You also need tools, but you generator will mostly cut all the tools you need, at least if you get a newer one. You need pads, and a pad press, and an air supply, polish (Americal Plus is our favorite).And space to put all this, lens stock included. Our Dr. lost two of his refraction lanes(had four) and my office when we put in surfacing
It is a huge expense, but can be manageable if you lease properly.Be assured that you will probably not make money on the lab, but hopefully you can increase your customer base due to quicker service, so it won't be a total wash. Of course, once it's paid for, the overhead drops.
You also need to determine which types of lenses to stock, and someone to keep your inventory up.
So- would I do it again? Yes. As RBaker said, there is something satisfying in producing a job that can solve a particular problem that you could talk to the outside lab until you're blue in the face and still not get it done the way you want.
That said- I don't plan on spending five days hand fining and polishing a +4cyl on the frontside of a Younger Blended Myodisk again.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
Adam,You could always move to China. You would at least get the cheap part.
We are all aware of your agenda and your geopolitics. There is no need for your continuous belittling about another country or people. China is where I live; this is where I have family, close friends and business colleagues. Just as I defend the US against any negative comments, I will certainly do the same with regards to China.
Optiboard is an international community and many Chinese people come to this board to offer their advice, services and ask others for help. We all can not subscribe to the same business philosophy nor be from the same country. I suggest keeping on topic (optical related). There are many other boards where we can espouse our political leanings and beliefs.
Eric
Eric,
I am also well aware of your agenda and geopolitical theories. You and I both agreed on another thread that we don't care about one another's opinions. I am fine with that.
As stated earlier in this thread, one of the major considerations in opening an in-house surfacing facility is the expense of finding and hiring a qualified Optician. My suggestion of moving the facility to China was a suggestion to the poster's concern of the expense of labor. We both know that labor is cheaper in China than New York City, right? We both also know that a Chinese manufacturing worker is the lowest paid in world. What part of my advice is wrong? Is there a better place or way (other than automation) to drastically reduce the price of labor in a surfacing facility?
I am glad to know you will always come to the defense of inexpensive Chinese labor. :cheers: Keep up the fight.
Adam
Adam,
I have to admit, your last post was funny and made me laugh. :D These kind of comments I can live with.
It just occurred to me that I am inexpensive Chinese labor too.
Eric
I figure you could do it on 12 to 15 surface jobs per day.
The A/R coating issue is a big one. The opticians in my practice have their favorite progressives and coatings. I would be "battling" their dispensing habits, and what patients have previously worn. They love ( and I can't say I disagree) Alize and Varilux. So I wouldn't want to make the investment in the equipment if I had to compete with brands that I couldn't manufacture.
Amnesty International have much to say on the subject of China.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/...USA20070301001
Back on topic, I would disagree with fjpod. Surely you would need much more than 12 to 15 jobs per day to recoup the higher costs of a surfacing lab?
Wait a minute. This goes against what Eric was saying:
"Laborers are denied housing benefits and health insurance."
Eric, I suggest you take this up with this guy:
Contact: Jason Opeña Disterhoft, 202-544-0200, ext. 302
For all the "we's" and "everyone's" out there that Eric talks about who are reading these threads and believe China is a great place to work, live, and raise a family on a laborers income, I thought I would put something into perspective. Read the article above and understand the number of migrant laborers in Chinese cities is approx 150-200 million. The US total population just hit 300 million. A little food for thought this morning.
Adam
Adam,
The Chinese legal system has laws to protect the worker. Do all employers comply? Certainly not. I do not think any country has 100% compliance.
100 years ago in the US, we had rampant environmental abuses, mistreatment of workers, unsafe work environments, discrimination,
and unregulated, low wages. Over the past 100 years we evolved as a country. Laws were passed protecting workers from mistreatment. Unions were created to protect workers rights and collectively negotiate with employers.
100 years ago we would likely not have said the US was a great place to live, work and raise a family as compared to the US today. We cannot compare the US today with China today. The time line is different and the economic development is still in its early stages. The expression "Rome was not built in a day" is very befitting.
Every system of government has flaws. What we like to see are positive steps. If you really are interested to learn about China you cannot do so from a book or through the Internet. It requires your being more proactive and experiencing it, and learning the culture.
Quite honestly your thinking now is not different than mine 10 years ago. A short trip here will not be enough but it would be a start. The door is open and I really do welcome you to visit me here.
Eric
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