View Poll Results: Should Opticians Refract

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  • Yes (unequivocally, with no supervision or restrictions)- with formal training

    138 37.70%
  • Yes (with no supervision, but with restrictions as to whom can be seen)

    76 20.77%
  • Yes (with supervision)

    69 18.85%
  • No (because there is no need for Opticians to refract)

    69 18.85%
  • No (Opticians are not capable of refracting)

    14 3.83%
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Thread: Should Opticians Refract - The Poll

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  1. #1
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Should Opticians Refract - The Poll

    Let's see if we can all just vote on this without getting into a debate on ethics or something- just to get an overall glimpse of where most of us are coming from... I've tried to include a choice meeting all the thus far described positions (at least as far as I understand them :) ).

    Pete

  2. #2
    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Why not?

    Properly trained opticians get a yes vote from me.If problems arise, a properly trained optician will know where to go for help!
    best from Harry j
    "Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
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  3. #3
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Harry makes a good point. By clicking "unequivocally yes," you are assuming that the Optician has gone through an established training regimen.

    Pete

  4. #4
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Wave brits

    Well from our sides point of view its a big yes as thats what we call the guy or gal (optician) doing the eye tests.

    btw i have not voted as you yanks have a diffrent way of expressing job titles.

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder
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    As I understand it John, the way it would relate to here is getting rid of the OO, have a DO do the refraction, and a GP check the back of the eye etc etc. Our DOs are trained to refract already, but they don't actually do it. However, all the GPs would complain, becasue you voted for no NHS funding ever again (Labour), so it wouldn't work :)

  6. #6
    Bad address email on file Ney Rojas-Mejia's Avatar
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    I second Harry's opinion.

  7. #7
    Bad address email on file Ney Rojas-Mejia's Avatar
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    OK, Maria.

  8. #8
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    I vote big yes.I am trained to refract and recognise abnormal eye conditions in my dispensing opticians course.

    I second opinion of John R. I find american syllabus to be different in training from ours which is based on british system.

    Thanks,
    Sara

  9. #9
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maria
    Our DOs are trained to refract already, but they don't actually do it. However, all the GPs would complain, becasue you voted for no NHS funding ever again (Labour), so it wouldn't work :)
    Interesting i never knew that as a Dispensing optician you got trained to test eyes, as for going to the GP to have my eyes tested "no way" takes a week to get in when your dying so god knows how long just to test your eyes...

    as for who i voted for, does it matter as in the end they are all the same, all i care about is MY pocket.. but i think that the NHS should get rid of the faceless suits and give the power to treat who, where and when back to the white coat's and sod the cost...

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder
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    I think we'll all have private heathcare eventually, there'll be no NHS.

  11. #11
    Bad address email on file OptiBoard Gold Supporter Sean's Avatar
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    Im w/harry on this one.

  12. #12
    OptiBoard Apprentice Bradmain's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Its Either Or

    Meaning no disrespect for any of the eye care professionals, I look at this as an "either / or" situation. 1. Opticians should be trained to refract while Optometrists and Ophthalmologists are trained to fabricate spectacles, or 2. ODs and MDs should get out of dispensing and Opticians won't refract.

    With #1, Opticians should also get access to 3rd party and stay competitive with MDs and ODs. This, unfortunately, will never happen because Opticians will never get that organized. In situation #2, we distinctly draw the line between the 3 O's roles and the public is better served (hopefully).

    In my dreams,

    Brad

  13. #13
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    I agree whole heartedly with Brad.

  14. #14
    Just An Optician jediron1's Avatar
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    mlm said:Like you, I am a strong supporter of educating yourself to move forward in your chosen field. And I agree that with formal education and training, a clear model for vision care provision (meaning that we know who patients need to see for what), and a willingness for all 3 O's to work together in equal partnership, our eyecare professions can really move ahead. It's a fantasy I don't think I'll see in my lifetime, but hey, one can always dream.

    With attitudes like this it will be a "fantasy" YOU may never see. The point you and WMC are missing is what Chris pointed out and what Bev acknowledged from a quote from Ed August "we have to educate to legislate".
    Chris went on to point out that:

    "Usually a diploma at the end of an education is the proof that you have been educated. Therfore in any profession a license is usually given to somebody that has a diploma. Anybody can say hes been educated."

    The other two O's will never recognize us unless we educate ourselfs and become licensed. With education and licensure we get the recognition that we would never have had with out that education (diploma)!
    Last edited by jediron1; 03-07-2005 at 09:02 PM.

  15. #15
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    Whoa! Okay, I don't get where the dissonance is. We all seem to agree that education is the key. With education will come licensure. With licensure should come recognition and respect.

    The key to understanding wmcdonald's statement (and I certainly hope he'll correct me if I'm misinterpreting his words) has to do with perception and semantics. I'll use my own job as an example. When I tell people that I'm an optometric assistant, 90% of those people think I'm simply the girl at the front desk who answer the phone. Heck, my own parents think that's what I do! I tell people I'm a certified optometric assistant through the Cdn. Assoc. of Optometrists and a certified paraoptometric assistant through the AOA; then I'm perceived as the girl at the front desk who answers the phone and is way overeducated for that role. Afterall, I don't need to be certified to answer a phone. The point is that I do way more than answer that phone, but having the certificates alone won't change that perception.

    So, no, you don't need a license to say that the blue frame looks better on Mrs. Smith and sell her that frame. You should need a license (or the proper education) to dispense that frame and ensure that the lenses in the frame are appropriate for her prescription and visual needs. But that license alone will only make you look like a "glorified sales person", unless there is concurrent public education to show that opticianry is more than sales.

    In British Columbia, it is mandatory for all opticians, practicing and non-practicing, to be registered with the College of Opticians of BC. To become a member of the College, opticians have to be graduates of an approved training program, sit for and pass the registration exam and submit to a criminal record check. We are already there!!

    Do I still think that my vision for ideal eyecare delivery is a fantasy? Yes I do. Because while we have the first point (formal education), we don't have the other two (a model for vision care provision and a willingness to work together). The general public still gets confused over the roles of the three O's, and intentionally or not, our infighting contributes to that confusion. Who here can honestly say that they have never ever witnessed one of the O's dismissing the work of the other two? So, back to perception...how can we all earn recognition and respect from the public if we can't recognise and respect each other? If you can find a solution to that dilemma and put it into practice in my lifetime, then you will have fulfilled my ultimate fantasy ;)

  16. #16
    Just An Optician jediron1's Avatar
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    mlm you should go back and re-read Chris's response to WMC. But as you said it could just be "semantics". And of course it does not take a license to show a frame but it sure would help if you were aware what and how that frame was made and to have the knowledge to back up what your saying. Re-read the posts your missing the point that Chris,Bev and I were trying to make just as WMC did! I don't believe this whole thread!:hammer:

  17. #17
    Master OptiBoarder mullo's Avatar
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    Thumbs up My vote....

    I'm with Harry and Sean on this one...Mullo

  18. #18
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    Big Smile

    I'm with Pete, opticians should be allowed to refract.

  19. #19
    Bad address email on file Jackie L's Avatar
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    I vote to refract with restrictions assuming the Refractionist has gone through formal education.

  20. #20
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    Opticians refracting

    This debate is nothing but a turf war, refraction is bending of light, nothing more , nothing less, lets face it, Opticians have always been responsible for consumer satisfaction of their specs, and refraction logically should be in our scope of practice, as we have to deal more intimately with these problems. I have worked with the other two O's and honestly eye disease is very rare and usually manifests itself rather obvious, there is more danger in fitting a contact lens improper, sure glaucoma can silently cause vision loss, but a yearly exam by an Optometrist or Ophthalmologist still cannot rule out glaucoma(low tension). As refracting Opticians working under M.D's we are considering visual field analysers and sending the results to an Ophtho, now that's pretty good care eh!

  21. #21
    Master OptiBoarder ziggy's Avatar
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    Crier questions, questions!!

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong,, and I know you will LOL!
    Untill, the early 1900's there was no such thing as an OD, In many ways (in my humble assesment), The job of an OD is a bit redundant(that is if LDO's could refract). If there is any major eye problems, they refer on to the MD's. As it stands now the only reason that we can't refract is the OD's dont want to share the money! In OK, from what I gather, OD's just won the right to do lasic, as that becomes the standerd natiion wide, we will be able to refract, they will be to busy getting $800.00-$1500.00 in the same time it took them to get $50.00- $75.00. Just my 2 cents. Paul

  22. #22
    Bad address email on file Jackie L's Avatar
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    The OD's defined their own trade (at the time) and legislated (with grandfathering) to define thier title as Optometrists. Opticians began as jewlers. Optometrists as Occulists that peddled corrective eyewear. Yes, there could have been a time when Optometrists would have gone by the wayside. MD's to examine and LDO's dispensing. The big difference today (and history has shown) is that the OD's are extremely organized and we have not been.

    So, until Opticians, Lab Techs, Para-Optometrics, Frame stylists, COT'S, COA'S and others that have an interest in Optics unify and stop debating as to who is better, here we sit.

    Just my opinion.

  23. #23
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    I think opticians should be able to refract after receiving appropriate training.

    Jackie L. was right on target! Lack of organization and co-operation has prevented opticians from progressing in the scheme of things.

  24. #24
    OptiBoard Professional Dannyboy's Avatar
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    I was just reading the CLSA mailing and find it interesting that the NCLC- AC certification exam provides a waiver for COT/COMT and graduates of opticianry programs of the prerequisites courses and other requirements prior to being able to sit for the advanced exam. Dont you folks think that another certifying agency is needed to accomodate the refracting optician. Maybe they could offer a grandfather clause to all those COT/COMTs and paraoptometrics that already do refraction. Then we would have a stronger voice.

    Dannyboy:)

  25. #25
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    Thumbs up

    I'm with Phil and Dannyboy on this one. When I worked as a COA after 10 years as a LDO, I learned how to refract from an OD that was in the practice. She was an excellent teacher and I would refract for the MD's every day. MD's were skeptical at first, but everytime they would check my refractions, they were right on the money, no over-minusing either. My refractions became so accurate that MD's were telling me I was refracting better than some of their 3rd year Ophthalmology residents. This inspired them to teach me retinoscopy. I became good at that and started doing cycloplegic refractions. Then I woke up and said...
    what the H--- am I doing? I'm doing EVERYTHING an OD does except using the indirect and checking for eye diseases! Yes, I used the Slit-lamp too. I'm thinking, I should be getting OD salary. But, reality hits.....I didn't go to Optometry school after college.:hammer: So, now I am back to working as an LDO managing an Optical getting called a great "salesperson" almost everyday :o. The very 1st day the Optical opened, a regular patient walked in and when I told her I would not be assisting the Doc anymore, she said "Oh, so your doing SALES now." My response...:o .

    Now, what do you think refracting would do for LDO's?
    Last edited by pedseye; 06-16-2001 at 09:30 PM.

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