Should Opticians Refract - The Poll

[spexer]

Those pennies are heads up for me, could not agree more. We have problems in my licensed state keeping non licensed individulals from dispensing. I can only imagine what would happen if we were "licensed" to refract. The mills give away eye exams for free now they can get a girl who worked at McDonalds last week to write the RX!!!
I do think refraction should be part of our mandatory continuing ed, and the ability to be certified to refract could add to our profession. If nothing it would give some a better understanding of the RX.

[Laurie]

Hi Chris,

Yes, Opticianry absolutely has an important hands on component. It is both an art and a science. (Geek Chic, as I like to call it).

Our students, whether campus based or Internet based all test the same: quizzes online, a proctored midterm, and face to face finals, with me (and other instructors) that demonstrate both theoretical and practical knowledge. Our final exam days run from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM, very much like state boards. They include proof of knowledge and skill in both written and practical forms. And, no matter where they live, they must come to our campus at the end of each semester, 6 semesters total.

Today's educational media-technology allow us to demonstrate important hands on objectives as well as equally important theoretical optical concepts through streaming videos on the Internet. The sponsors that sign off on dispensing competencies at the off-site practicums (labs and dispensaries) are vital to our success. You may be surprised to know that there are MANY quality optical professionals willing to take on a student and share their wealth of knowledge. We are truly thankful for their partnership with us.

Ziggy: I agree with you! The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition is outrageous. Please write the Florida legislature! I can envision an "on-line" tuition for e-learners.

: )

Best Wishes,

Laurie

[Laurie]

I just re-read your post and found your name!

I will go over to my previous reply and edit it now...(I didn't see your name first go-around)!

: )

I will tell Bill hello for you...great to see you here!

You were a great student.

Laurie

[dcdwn]

I sorry that you did not understand SHELLROB, I FEEL THAT OPTICIAN SHOULD REFRACT. REFRACTION IS LIGHT RAYS BENDING WITH LENSES IN FRONT OF THE EYE. AND AS OPTICIANS WE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. BEFORE ODS. THE FURTURE OF OPTICIANRY GETS NO RESPECT. I HAD THE TIME TO, READ DR.WARREN G.McDONALD,PAPER ON STATUS OF THE OPTICIAN IN THE UNITED STATES: WHAT ROLE WILL THEY PLAY IN THE FUTURE? HE HAD THE DELPHI PANEL OF OPTOMETRY, OPHTHALMOLOGY AND OPTICIANRY FOR THE STUDY AND OUR FURTURE OF OPTICIANS . WE NEED TRAINNING,INSTRUCTION AND EDUCATION SO WE CAN GET LEGISLATION. TO BE INDEPENDENT,BUT TO HELP OTHER OPTICIANS, ODS AND MDS. SHELLROB I HOPE THAT THIS IS A LITTLE BETTER.

[jediron1]

WCM said:Let me make this simple. I am trying to differentiate between the sales clerks at that "sell" eyewear and the professional side of what Opticians do.

We go through this whole thread and you finally make your point that:"I am trying to differentiate between the sales clerks at that "sell" eyewear and the professional side of what Opticians do".: Why did you not SAY that before? Instead you led us down the yellow brick road, thinking you were leading us to the great OS, instead we find that you were only trying to get us to the wicked witch of the North ( Sales clerks). Why all the diatribe? All you had to say was
exactly what you said in the above line and you would have cleared the air. As QuickSilver Messenger Service once said: "Fresh Air" it's the only way to go.


"Before Elvis there was nothing"
John Lennon

[wmcdonald]

I had said it several times. Glad I got the point across.

[jediron1]

dcdwn said:

WE NEED TRAINNING,INSTRUCTION AND EDUCATION SO WE CAN GET LEGISLATION. TO BE INDEPENDENT,BUT TO HELP OTHER OPTICIANS, ODS AND MDS. SHELLROB I HOPE THAT THIS IS A LITTLE BETTER.

You are correct in your assessment of the situation. But do you really think the BIG boys will help you? Not a chance! This happened in N.Y. where everybody was saying lets lighten up the Optical exam so it's not so tuff and we can get more Opticians in the field. Now, not more good Opticians just opticians. This was headed by the Evil Empire because they wanted more help at cheaper rates. Well they went for the MICKEY MOUSE ABO instead of one of the tuffest exams in the US, they abolished the old N.Y. Optical exam. And as was said before there are people out there that don't know the difference between a PD ruler and yard stick or Slab off from a Panamic bifocal ( panamic is for some of you old timers) and I doubt if they have ever heard of or seen a lenticular lens or heard of a ribbon segment. I m not saying your going to use this knowledge now, but where has the history and the education gone? They used to sing: "Where have the flowers gone" now it could be said: "Where have the Opticians gone":(

[dcdwn]

I Have Never Taken The New York Optical Exam . I Do Rember Other Opticans Talk How Hard It Was. And It So Simple That A Person Off The Street Could Pass. This Is Why We Need To Redo Our Exams For State And National. It Use To I Think That One In Six Could Pass.oh I Have Seen Alot Of Changes ,but We Have To Control Our Own Orig. Not Letting Other Orig. Control Us ? Iam In Favor Of Everthing We As Opticians Can Do To Educate.we Used To A Long Time Had A Lot Of Strong Leaders Now Theres Just Very Few. I Do Feel Sometime That Iam A Sales Person, Not An Optician. I Like Beening An Optican So I Have Been Going To Meetings At My State So I Can Take The 100 Hour Course Of Refraction. And Ihope Other Opticians In There States Gets Some Courses Of Refraction. It Does Make Some Ods Mad Of Opticians Refracting, They Do Want Their Cake And Ice Cream From Us And The Mds. There Is A Bill Right Now In Texas For Ods To Do Laisk Just Because They Went To Uofh School Very Scary.

[shellrob]

Dcdawn, the way you're writing your posts is making it very hard to read. You're capitilizing where you shouldn't, using all caps, or totally mispelling words making it difficult to know what you're saying. That's what I meant by my last post. I recommend using the spellchecker and writing in paragraph form. This makes it much easier to understand your posts which means more replys for you.

Thanks

[jediron1]

Is it me or is dcdwn not making any sense what so ever. I just tried to read his post it was jibberish. dcdwn please re post and re write :hammer:

[Shwing]

Geez, where do I start???

Ok, let's go with sales...



Fact: my brother in-law never got beyond grade 10 and has been making over $135K per year (for more than 10 years) selling cars. I on the other hand, completed the professional schooling, and only make, well a lot less....



You get the idea. If you are in this for the money, (and I will only say this once)



GET THE HELL OUT.



We professionals don't want you, you drag us down; you yourself could be doing much better at the electronics store for lots ‘o $$ (remember to put on your résumé that you have 'optical' experience: vis-à-vis cameras) and,

do you really and truly think you are helping humanity (such as your mom or friend) by providing them (and the masses) with inexpensive eyewear as opposed to the proper product to assist their visual needs?????


grrrr...



When you get down to it, yeah, we all need to make a living, but to do so at the expense of the public (for lack of education) is absolutely incomprehensible, morally corrupt and ethically wrong.



Wake up! What do you want to be able to tell your friends or your kids? Look in the mirror: I was morally corrupt, but we got to have dinner out more often? Not.



OR, that I went and bettered myself, and BTW my profession, and LOOK! because of that, I can impart similar values to yourself (kids) and still make a good living?



You wanna sell frames, have at it. You wish to be a professional, a leader, someone who actually can make a difference for each and every client you meet, well that is different. Educate yourself so you can educate others.



I was just a retail sales guy when I started. Know what? I am making twice the money than my former sales-dudes (at current- day prices; and them in industry still) than if I didn't take that step further and educate myself.



Forgive the rant, but it comes down to this: What do you want to be when you grow up?



I take pride in my profession of choice, and so, I do what I can to make myself and thereby, my profession better. You simply want money? Go sell cars.

[jediron1]

Hey Shwing whats your problem? Is it the box your running around in, in your icon, did it get so claustrophobic that you started to have visions of your life blow bye your mind? ( Reminds me of the Prisoner and the Large Ball always chasing him back to the island) What a rant! And for what and to whom?:hammer:

[jediron1]

WMC if you would have said Education first, then go sell it, would have made a lot more sense then the road lest traveled you were trying to make. I get your point but you still failed to get the point we were trying to make and I don't know how to get it across anymore than we have?

Stumped!:hammer:

[wmcdonald]

I have commented on this thread for many weeks, beginning on page two. I comment vehemently on the need for education in my very first post. The only comment you did not seem to understand is my comment on "selling", am I correct. It was way down the thread! I think if you read all the psots, I am clear. Even in the post on sales, I place it in " " to indicate a variance in the meaning. I explained that dispensing takes more than sales, ie: Rx analysis, etc. I am not certain what you do not get initially, but I got yours clearly. You seem to think it takes a license to sell eyewear, and I respectfully disagree. While it requires a license for some (Opticians in some states), ODs and MDs have folks selling daily will minimal training. Many of the chains prove my point daily. I want to change that. I hope we are on the same page currently.

[Aarlan]

Any movement that will increase the price to consumers is considered anathema to the current administration. I have seen time and time again that the FTC has weighed in on issues (such as online contact lens sales), and they always seem to lean towards whatever saves the consumer money...regardless of the effect on the health, safety and well being of those same consumers. THIS IS NOT A KNOCK ON THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION. This is not a political swipe, only an observation. An attempt to increase licensing requirements at a state or national level would require legislation and continued monitoring which would COST MONEY. In today's political climate, where it seems every state seems to be running a hideous deficit (Thanks to exorbitant special ed budgets...We didn't all need this much Ritalin, did we?) I feel there will be little appetite for expanding licensing. Instead, many states that are licensed (Especially our quaint little nutmeg state) had best watch for the dilution and/of elimination of what licensing requirements we do have.
Yes an experienced optician with a complete knowledge of his/her craft is an optimum alternative to the "I used to be a dress salesperson last week, but now I'm a bonafide temple bender/frame stylist today" but what is optimal is not what is on our legislators agenda these days. Saving money is. I just don't see any push to educate ourselves will necessarily lead to increased/improved legislation.
Geez...I'm depressing myself.

[con]

I am an Irish trained optometrist. We are trained under the same system as the UK. In the Uk and Ireland , a dispensing optician fits glasses and can train up to fit contacts. It is a regulated profession. An optometrist in these countries usually carries out dispensing alongside eye examinations. To answer the question pesed by the pole , it would be common sense to anyone in britain and ireland that refraction and eye health evaluation ( ie slit lamp biomicroscopy , ophthalmoscopy , binocular vision assessment etc. ) cannot be seperated into two entities. If you are going to refract , you are going to have to do the other parts of the examination simultaneously. To suggest seperating the two would be considered absurd to almost anyone working in optics in Britain , Ireland , Australia and South Africa.
There is a programme now set up in the uk which allows dispensing opticians with CL accreditation to complete an intensive twelve month course to upgrade to becoming an optometrist.
I suggest that this is what licensed dispensing opticians in the states should be pushing for.
Some comments i have read in this thread by dispensing opticians in support of the refraction argument took the example of Germany saying 'well opticians in Germany refract , shouldn't we.
This would a huge step backwards for public health as the German model is far from ideal.
I suggest you look at the British model in your quest to find a way forward for your profession

As an aside, I don't agree with optometrists in the states trying to be allowed to carry out laser surgery. Leave it to those trained to perform surgery i.e. doctors. I also would disagree with optometrists being given prescribing rights for anything but minor antibiotics. Medicine prescribing should remain in the sole territory of medics.

[jediron1]

WMC said:

I am not certain what you do not get initially, but I got yours clearly. You seem to think it takes a license to sell eyewear, and I respectfully disagree.

In my state N.Y. we do need a license to sell but the august exam we had went by the way side by a considerable amount of pressure from the likes of LC and others that wanted to get cheap labor and they basically said: the H_LL with the exam gives us that cheap labor. That is why we now have that MICKEY MOUSE ABO for the N.Y. state test. Put a monkey in a room taking the exam and I bet he gets at least a 50 on that MICKEY MOUSE exam. (not trying to put down monkey's either, they can just hold a pen better than a dog). Just my 2 cents!

[Judy Canty]

In my state N.Y. we do need a license to sell but the august exam we had went by the way side by a considerable amount of pressure from the likes of LC and others that wanted to get cheap labor and they basically said: the H_LL with the exam gives us that cheap labor. That is why we now have that MICKEY MOUSE ABO for the N.Y. state test. Put a monkey in a room taking the exam and I bet he gets at least a 50 on that MICKEY MOUSE exam. (not trying to put down monkey's either, they can just hold a pen better than a dog). Just my 2 cents!

The only license needed to sell anything is a business license. Your Opticians license allows you to practice the art and science of Opticianry as it is defined by your state regulations. As I have preached in the past, if Opticians united nationally and demanded college-level education as a qualifier to attain licensure and pursued licensing requirements in all 50 states, we would no longer sit at the bottom of the food chain. That's my $165(OAA + OAV annual dues)!:angry:

[jediron1]

Judy Canty:
The only license needed to sell anything is a business license. Your Opticians license allows you to practice the art and science of Opticianry as it is defined by your state regulations. As I have preached in the past, if Opticians united nationally and demanded college-level education as a qualifier to attain licensure and pursued licensing requirements in all 50 states, we would no longer sit at the bottom of the food chain. That's my $165(OAA + OAV annual dues)!:angry:[/QUOTE]

Hey Judy clam down, why the angry icon? My point which you oviviously missed was pointing out we once had a very strong license in N.Y. where now we just have a MICKEY MOUSE ABO and it was basically the large chains like LC that strived for a change in N.Y. and don't tell me you should have fought that, we did but with chains like LC and others, there money just over whelmed us. We sent letters upon letters to the state senators and others not to pass the bill, but the large chains finally won out. I know first hand because I was one ( of many ) who sent a lot of letters to Albany to fight this, but in the end we lost.


Secondly get off your high horse you said::angry:
"The only license needed to sell anything is a business license". Wrong! In N.Y
if you sell a frame and have to take measurements you need a license, case closed.(what you going to do give them the frame and say thank you very much for that purchase but you will have to go somewhere else for measurements for lenses?) Stop preaching like you know it all, you were not in N.Y. when the chains like LC came through with all there money and cried to the state for help because Opticians in N.Y. had one of the hardest exams and many people could not pass it, they won out, not because we gave up, we never did but when you have money you have power and they had more of it.:hammer:

[Judy Canty]

I'm not angry at you, dear. I just get angry when I see all the things we could accomplish if we were as organized as Optometry. There are so many of us out there and together we should be a significant force. Instead, most of us wait for someone else to do the work and justify it by saying that our state and national organizations, to which we don't belong, are ineffective.

[jediron1]

If you were not angry why the angry icon? Little inconsistant in your story!

Second:Judy said:
I'm not angry at you, dear. I just get angry when I see all the things we could accomplish if we were as organized as Optometry. There are so many of us out there and together we should be a significant force. Instead, most of us wait for someone else to do the work and justify it by saying that our state and national organizations are ineffective.

Reread my above post we tried everything but money won out!

[Judy Canty]

I understand what you're saying. But could the outcome have changed if the full weight of nationally organized Opticianry descended on Albany? That's where we lose out.

[35oldguy]

Anyone qualified to do the exam should not be exempt from doing so. I have been doing eye exams in Guatemala for a number of years. I have not gotten any compliants. The exam is free. They only have to pay for the eyeglasses.

The regulations here are different. Most OD's here receive a ten week course. Why do you need a four year education. An OD is not an MD.

[cinders831]

Anyone qualified to do the exam should not be exempt from doing so. I have been doing eye exams in Guatemala for a number of years. I have not gotten any compliants. The exam is free. They only have to pay for the eyeglasses.

The regulations here are different. Most OD's here receive a ten week course. Why do you need a four year education. An OD is not an MD.

Excuse me as I balk at that statement....BALK BALK...

[35oldguy]

It is called less competition. They do not want more education. They want only office girls trained by them. When they think they have enough knowledge they ask for a raise. Then the OD fires them and starts the process over again. They do not want opticians.

dcdwn said:

WE NEED TRAINNING,INSTRUCTION AND EDUCATION SO WE CAN GET LEGISLATION. TO BE INDEPENDENT,BUT TO HELP OTHER OPTICIANS, ODS AND MDS. SHELLROB I HOPE THAT THIS IS A LITTLE BETTER.

You are correct in your assessment of the situation. But do you really think the BIG boys will help you? Not a chance! This happened in N.Y. where everybody was saying lets lighten up the Optical exam so it's not so tuff and we can get more Opticians in the field. Now, not more good Opticians just opticians. This was headed by the Evil Empire because they wanted more help at cheaper rates. Well they went for the MICKEY MOUSE ABO instead of one of the tuffest exams in the US, they abolished the old N.Y. Optical exam. And as was said before there are people out there that don't know the difference between a PD ruler and yard stick or Slab off from a Panamic bifocal ( panamic is for some of you old timers) and I doubt if they have ever heard of or seen a lenticular lens or heard of a ribbon segment. I m not saying your going to use this knowledge now, but where has the history and the education gone? They used to sing: "Where have the flowers gone" now it could be said: "Where have the Opticians gone":(