Ethics?

[Fezz]

I am working on a project and would like some input and suggestions with this topic please.

What are ethics? How would you define ethics? We hear alot about being "ethical", but what does that really mean?

Do ethics change with differing circumstances?

What ethics pertain to optics? Is selling a made in China frame at a huge mark-up "ethical"? Is dispensing a pair of lenses with +/- .25 off power "ethical"? Is doing the phantom adjustment(you know, the patient who is never happy, brings the frame in constantly for adjustments and you bring the frame into the back room, bang some pleirs around, turn on and off the frame warmer and all the while doing NOTHING to the frame)? Is selling a progressive, when a FT or Sv would be better suited, ethical?

Ok, you get the idea.

Thanks to all ahead of time who contribute. It will be very helpful!

[lensgrinder]

I think ethics is being honest. For example, do not try to fit the latest greatest progressive in a frame that you know will not work even if it is a $500.00 lens in a $400.00 frame.
Many times we see dollar signs, but we are doing a disservice to our patients. If you see a scratch in the lens that you know the patient will not see, let them know, be honest. If you are inspecting a pair of glasses and it is 1 degree out of tolerence, but the patient has waited a week and a half, be honest with and tell them you made a mistake and it will be a little longer.
We all know what is right and wrong, but some choose to look the other way.

[GOS_Queen]

Here is a definition of ethics that I find solid:


the branch of philosophy concerned with evaluating human action. Some distinguish ethics, what is right or wrong based on reason, from morals, what is considered right or wrong behavior based on social custom.
campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/Glossary/Glossary.index.html

With regard to professions, a code of professional standards, containing aspects of fairness and duty to the profession and the general public.
www.titleguarantynm.com/terms_e.asp

1) Do ethics change with differing circumstances - No. I believe that would be "relativism".

2) Is selling a made in China frame at a huge mark-up "ethical"? It would depend. If the frames are high quality, I would see no problem with doing so. If the frames are crap (and crappy frames can come from any country of origan, imho), then I think that would be leaning towards the "unethical". In a capitalistic society such as ours, the primary goal has always been to make as much money for the shareholders as possible without regard to anything else.

3) Is dispensing a pair of lenses with +/- .25 off power "ethical"? - It would depend on the power of the lens. If I'm not mistaken, ANSI adjusted tolerances awhile back - I think the lowest power tolerance is not a +/- .25 now (and not a .12). (I could be wrong as I have been out of the dispensing arena for over a year now but I seem to recall something like that being the case). If you have high powered lens, then no, it would not be ethical.

4) Is doing the phantom adjustment ethical? Probably not. However, it can be a sanity saver. ;)

5) Is selling a progressive, when a FT or Sv would be better suited, ethical? If the pros and cons have been clearly discussed with the customer, and the customer makes a fully informed choice to go with progressives, then yes, it would be ethical. If the optician has held back any information and is motivated by "spiffs" to fit a progressive, then no, it would not be ethical.

[Fezz]

GOS-
Thanks for the links! Good reply. Thank you.

[chip anderson]

Wasn't that a word that used to be in the dictionary before doctors began dispensing? Back when you got treatment in the hospital emergency room before they checked for insurance or money? Back when primary purpose of glasses was to make you see? Back when a "routine eye exam" included refraction? When the doctor did his own exams ?

I think it has been deleted?

Chip

[peadee]

I beleive in our abo manual under disciplinary guidelines there are a number of procedures that help to interpert ethics. My favorite on is #23 which is Exploitation or abuse of a patient /customer. Exploit meaning notable act and use. esp. selfishly. Abuse meaning use or treated wrongly. Wrong use or treatment. Insult.
This brings to mind the retail and advertising aspect of our industry. know some stores that have never even offered plastic cr39 lens. They have told customers what they think is best for them but never told them of products that they could have. They decided how they were going to spend the customers money. Now my question is beyond duty to warn. Do they have to ask for plastic? Like it sits on the shelves in the back till someone mentions it name. Is it our responsibilty to offer all materials that would work for the rx from the bottom/up in price? where does ethics cross the line in sales.

[Igor 22]

I have also been doing alot of ethics/soul searching about an opportunity that I have been presented with - completely unrelated to your specific question - but when it comes to ethics, I think it still applies. I'll also take a shot at answering your questions with my opinion - take it for what it is worth - it's just an opinion.

GOS - I hope you don't mind that I used you're reply as a template for my own. If so, I will delete it.


1) Do ethics change with differing circumstances - No, honesty is honesty.

2) Is selling a made in China frame at a huge mark-up "ethical"? -Yes, if the patient is happy with it, no harm no foul. A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Is it wrong to complain that you are stocking the expensive "newest style" frame that isn't moving (that you make a small mark-up on) and no-one is buying?? Sometimes whatever is the big thing in Europe isn't the big thing here. Trust me I've seen HUGE losses on investment.

3) Is dispensing a pair of lenses with +/- .25 off power "ethical"? - is that what was prescribed and what the patient ordered? No.

4) Is doing the phantom adjustment ethical? In most cases Yes. This is the patient that feels the need for "special" attention. As a professional, you must judge at what time it is appropriate to use this approach and at what times the patient is truely having a problem.
5) Is selling a progressive, when a FT or Sv would be better suited, ethical?
- No. UNLESS, the patient is asking for something specific (they already have it in their head what they want). You're primary job is to guide them in what's best for them. They don't have the knowledge you do, but in the end, it's their decision/$$.

$.02

[Fezz]

1) Do ethics change with differing circumstances - No, honesty is honesty.

So...are you saying that ethics=honesty?


Not trying to start something, again I am trying to get educated on the subject for a project that I am embarking on.


Thanks to all for replying.

[m0002a]

The key to most ethical situations in the business world is “full disclosure”.

In some transactions such as real estate and auto sales, the seller is usually obligated to disclose all known defects or problems to the potential buyer. So in those transactions it is an ethical and a legal situation. In many other transactions, it may only be an ethical requirement to provide full disclosure.

It is generally up to the consumer to comparison shop to make sure the prices they pay are reasonable and customary. A retailer is not ethically obligated to point out that a consumer can purchase the same goods somewhere else for less money.

But if a consumer orders a lens with a particular Rx, and it was made incorrectly, and the retailer knows that, then the retailer should disclose that information to the customer.

[GOS_Queen]

So...are you saying that ethics=honesty?

I would answer not necessarily. I would say that the personal ethics a person lives by is based on a how the you experience(d) the world around you.

From http://www.ethics.org

Ethics
1. The decisions, choices, and actions (behaviors) we make that reflect and enact our values..
2.The study of what we understand to be good and right behavior and how people make those judgments. (From "What is the Difference Between Ethics, Morals and Values?", Frank Navran, /ask_e4.html)
3. A set of standards of conduct that guide decisions and actions based on duties derived from core values. (From "The Ethics of Non-profit Management," Stephen D. Potts, /resources/speech_detail.cfm?ID=821 )
4. There are many definitions as to what ethics encompasses:

• The discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation;
• Decisions, choices, and actions we make that reflect and enact our values;
• A set of moral principles or values;
• A theory or system of moral values; and/or
• A guiding philosophy.
  (From "Creating a Workable Company Code of Conduct," 2003, Ethics Resource Center)

[chip anderson]

Ethics=Honesty? Much more than that, if one's ethics are high enough ...
Ethics= Nobility.

[Igor 22]

Ethics=Honesty? Much more than that, if one's ethics are high enough ...
Ethics= Nobility.

I like that - for some it can be a struggle to just get to honesty.

I guess GOS put it a little better in the definition.

To me ethics does mean honesty.
To someone else it may not.
But, In my original reply, we did not discern good ethics vs. bad ethics.
Both exist, and for myself and the people I choose to associate with, I prefer good ethics.
But my definition of good ethics is probably as different as my DNA is from every other human.
There is no set measuring stick for ethics aside from your own. It is merely your opinion.
Makes it even tougher to define doesn't it?

[m0002a]

But my definition of good ethics is probably as different as my DNA is from every other human.
There is no set measuring stick for ethics aside from your own. It is merely your opinion.
Makes it even tougher to define doesn't it?

I think you are confusing morality with ethics.

There are lots of different definitions of these two things (morality and ethics), but generally morality is a personal belief system, or a means by which one determines personal actions. Ethics is set up beliefs that are agreed to by an organization or society, either informally or formally, that are imposed on groups of people as to how they interact with others.

Many professions have a set of ethical rules that members of that profession must adhere to. For example, an attorney has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of their client (regardless of their personal opinion of the client). A physician is obligated to do no harm to a patient. A CPA must ensure they have no conflict of interest with the companies whose financial statements they audit. A person in government has specific ethical guidelines that they must follow (generally, a US government employee cannot even receive a free cup of coffee from a potential vendor). These are very broad ethical guidelines, but a person can be kicked out of their profession, or even be convicted of a crime for violating these ethical guidelines.

Certainly, everyone has their own moral belief systems by which they determine or rationalize what is right or wrong. But I don’t think that the ethical rules that are imposed society are merely a matter of opinion, or it would impossible for societies to ever agree on them or to ever enforce them.

In the case of business transactions, there certainly are ethical behaviors that are codified into laws. There are even ethical beliefs that are mandated for dispensing optical goods (opticians have a “duty to warn” about safety lenses for certain kinds of patients). Even for the ethical situations described in the original post, a good lawyer could sue an optician for fraud (and probably win) in most of these cases.

[Warspite]

I will weigh in on this lofty subject and offer my opinion. As a dispensing optician i considered myself a part of a larger process, that being health care. To understand what is ethical and what is not, one must understand motivation and intent. When given a RX to fill to correct a vision problem, present the patient with the products available and what the products will do for them, after educating the patient about products and services, let the patient choose what is best for them, this way, they are part of the process and they are given a choice in how meet the needs they determine are important to them...not what you think is important. If you approach dispensing in this fashion, money is never an issue and you maintain a selfless integrity that keeps your services ethical.

[LKahn]

Is it ethical to sell a consumer something they want that is not the best choice for them?

This thread is the best. 4 stars to m0002a for a very well stated position.

[m0002a]

Is it ethical to sell a consumer something they want that is not the best choice for them?.

So long as you explain to the patient what their best choice would be (the best choice generally accepted by the optical profession), then it is completely ethical to sell whatever they want. This is what I called "full disclosure" in a previous post in this thread.

[m0002a]

I will weigh in on this lofty subject and offer my opinion. As a dispensing optician i considered myself a part of a larger process, that being health care. To understand what is ethical and what is not, one must understand motivation and intent. When given a RX to fill to correct a vision problem, present the patient with the products available and what the products will do for them, after educating the patient about products and services, let the patient choose what is best for them, this way, they are part of the process and they are given a choice in how meet the needs they determine are important to them...not what you think is important. If you approach dispensing in this fashion, money is never an issue and you maintain a selfless integrity that keeps your services ethical.

I agree with your assessment, and it basically falls into the category of what I call "full disclosure," which is the key to ethical behavior for anyone who sells products or provides a service to consumers.

Full disclosure applies to those things which it would not be reasonable for an average consumer to know about (such as the fact that high index lenses have slightly worse optical qualities than lower index lenses, etc).

It is reasonable for a consumer to know (or find out for themselves) what other retailers charge for the same product, and therefore a retailer has no ethical obligation to inform a consumer about what other retailers charge.

[Igor 22]

m0002a, I certainly see your point, but when we reach a point of calling it "un-ethical" to give/recieve a cup of coffee, I think we've legislated ourselves into something foolish. I think it would be rude to not offer a guest a refreshment, but not morally wrong. Ethically wrong?? I just don't see the connection.

I also think the gist of the original question(s) (by your definitions) was probably asking more about the morality than the legalize.
I could be wrong.
I simply responded in the way I read the question.

I agree with you completely on the "full-disclosure" you mentioned. I have always tried to handle every transaction I've been involved in (both business and personal) in this manner. In your definition, do I do this because it was the moral thing to do, and not necessarily an ethical obligation?

Fezz - excellent question to pose for discussion.

[Fezz]

Fezz - excellent question to pose for discussion.

Thank you.


I find the topic fascinating and see the potential to trail into very different opinions. Opinions, or interpetations? Hmmmmm......


Again, I am gaining insight for a project and would again like to thank everybody for the valuable input.

[m0002a]

m0002a, I certainly see your point, but when we reach a point of calling it "un-ethical" to give/recieve a cup of coffee, I think we've legislated ourselves into something foolish. I think it would be rude to not offer a guest a refreshment, but not morally wrong. Ethically wrong?? I just don't see the connection.

In this instance, unethical means violating a clearly defined code of ethics established by the government for its employees.

Most corporations allow employees to occasionally receive a free meal up to a certain dollar amount, such as $25. For government employees it is zero dollars. Same principal, just different clip levels.

In this specific case, it is not up to the employee to determine what is allowed, since the code of ethics clearly defines it. Other situations may require some common sense be used to determine whether something is ethical or not ethical.

Some people on this forum who work for lens manufacturers have indicated that the code of ethics (or code of conduct) for their company does not allow them to make any comments in public about competitor's products. You may think that it is not necessarily unethical to do that, but in many companies it is not up to each individual to decide that. If the company says you cannot do it, and you work for the company, then you are bound by ethical responsibility to follow their rules and regulations (although you certainly can work within the company to get those rules changed).

[chip anderson]

In our state, supervisors, school superintendants, and the like as well as many other state officials get "rebates" which are not subject to audit. In other states I understand this is called "kick backs" but not here. We have the highest paid state superintendant of shools in the country (of course our schools are rated last or 49th in the nation, but what the hell. If it's for education we can pay it into administration. Some of our schools "request" that students bring toilet paper supplies and other needed items to offset "budget shortfalls".
Where you be commin from with this silly talk about "required ethics." As I said this word has long passed from our society and dictionary.
On any given day you can find almost all members of our legislature getting at least 2 meals a day at the most expensive resturants courtesy of our lobbyest.
The average physician has $5,000 a year spent trying to get him to prescribe the products of drug and other medical suppliers, and you want to mention "ethics". You silly, man.
Chip

[m0002a]

In our state, supervisors, school superintendants, and the like as well as many other state officials get "rebates" which are not subject to audit. In other states I understand this is called "kick backs" but not here. We have the highest paid state superintendant of shools in the country (of course our schools are rated last or 49th in the nation, but what the hell. If it's for education we can pay it into administration. Some of our schools "request" that students bring toilet paper supplies and other needed items to offset "budget shortfalls".
Where you be commin from with this silly talk about "required ethics." As I said this word has long passed from our society and dictionary.
On any given day you can find almost all members of our legislature getting at least 2 meals a day at the most expensive resturants courtesy of our lobbyest.
The average physician has $5,000 a year spent trying to get him to prescribe the products of drug and other medical suppliers, and you want to mention "ethics". You silly, man.
Chip

When I was talking about government employees, I was referring to US government employees. I can assure you that if you are a vendor and you provide coffee and donuts at a product presentation for US government employees, they must pay you money for the value of food that they consume. The US Congress is exempt from these rules (just as Congress has their own medical and retirement plans separate from other US government employees), although Congress does have its own set of ethical rules that they must follow.

A physician is self-employed and can set whatever ethical rules they want with regard to how their business operates, although they obviously have ethical rules enforced by licensing boards.

It sounds like your state has some problems, but I would not project that on to everyone. But no one is claiming that everyone acts in an ethical manner all the time, even when there are rules they are supposed to follow.

[Igor 22]

I find the topic fascinating and see the potential to trail into very different opinions. Opinions, or interpetations? Hmmmmm......


Again, I am gaining insight for a project and would again like to thank everybody for the valuable input.

Not only fascinating, but a cause for self evaluation as well.
It certainly makes you think about ones self and our own actions.

If I may ask, What is the scope of your project?
In my opinion ethics/morals (call it what you will, I'll walk away from that debate as I don't think it has relevance to the core of your question) are the soul of a person.
I don't know if my postings have been of any help to your project, I hope in some way they have. I'm simply speaking my mind on the topic at hand.

[chip anderson]

Our state has for the last two years gotten an award from the FBI as the nations most corrupt state, we have surpassed Louisianna and Nevada the previous record holders. We always wanted to be first in something, of course we are first in high school drop-outs and illegitimate births if one doesn't count the District of Colombia.
Oddly enough, most of our people seem to be happy with this.

Chip:finger:

[Chris Ryser]

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectively on sympathy, education, and social relationships; no religious basis is necessary.

Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

Albert Einstein, "New York Times Magazine", November 9, 1930