New Jersey Law

[uberoptiker]

Does anyone know about a supposed law in New Jersey prohibiting an optician from providing a patient with their pupillary distamce? I have had a number of customers tell me their regular opticians are refusing this info, saying it's against New Jersey state law. I would have thought HIPPA would require them to give this to the patient...

[HarryChiling]

Here is a link to their states regulations.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/ophth/ophthregs.pdf

The optician has no duty to give the client a PD measurement, this is considered part of the opticians service, if the client wants the PD they can have which ever location that they choose take the measurement. Online retailers are telling clients to go into opticals and demand their PD like it is the clients God given right to demand someone to take a measurement, when in reality if the client is taking those measurements elsewhere, to me is considered "theft of services".

[uberoptiker]

I have actually printed these regulations, and have found no refererece to the sharing of this information. I am aware that some offices charge the patient to release that information, like contact lens fitting data, and if the optician is unwilling to provide that measurement to try to retain the customer, they should say so, not try to invoke a state law if one does not exist. My question was simply with regards to the legal issue.

[Framebender]

online retailer refer them to their local Optician for this measurement like its their God given right!

:finger:

[HarryChiling]

I have actually printed these regulations, and have found no refererece to the sharing of this information. I am aware that some offices charge the patient to release that information, like contact lens fitting data, and if the optician is unwilling to provide that measurement to try to retain the customer, they should say so, not try to invoke a state law if one does not exist. My question was simply with regards to the legal issue.

I am not aware of any office that takes a PD measurement if the client was not interested in getting glasses, in our office we will take the PD before picking frames out and it gets written down on the workup so no glasses the workup goes in the trash. As to your question, NO I didn't see any laws relateing to the release of a PD eigther. My guess is the optician just doesn't feel like dealing with the hassle of explaining to the client the reason why they are not going to give the client the PD. Can't say I blame them, but I just flat out tell patients that they can have the office that fits the glasses measure the PD, and just act dense like I don't understand why the client needs me to measure the PD (they eventually leave thinking I am denser than a bag of nickels). The only time I will give a PD is with children with amblyopia, because I have seen the effects of a incorrectly measured PD and I have sympathy for the kids.

I don't understand how that helps to retain a customer, it just ensures that the optician is not working for free. I cover the frame models with stickers in my office as well, not because I am trying to retain my customers, but because I don't want everyone in my store trying on frames that they intend to purchase elsewhere. It is our offices capital that has aquired the frames and they are a large investment to have a good selection. I don't owe anyone the opportunity to try on frames, but my clients. I am also payed a fair wage by my employer to correctly measure PD's and seg hgts, by me offering the PD's to clients for free I will be devalueing my services and ripping my employer off.

[Cindy Hamlin]

Perhaps the optician has been burned by a patient that gets it taken, has a problem with the glasses and then is told to return to the person that took the measurements for the remake. I had a few instances where I did it as a courtesy for a friend of an Optician, OD, etc in another state and they would get the lenses for free.

I had a couple come back and demand that I remake them. I explained it is the person that provided the product that remakes not the person that provided the courtesy.

Also, maybe they want to sell them glasses??

[victor]

My approach might be a little different, but it seems to work for me. I freely give out P.D.s, frame models, do adjustments on frames purchased at O.D. offices, Lenscrafters, and Costco, and replace screws and nosepads at no charge. I find that many of the patients then return to me for their glasses next year, and they refer friends.

I say take the P.D. and give it to the customer. If (no, when) they return because they are seeing double, you can honestly tell them that the Rx was not made correctly and offer to sell them a real quality pair of eyewear. Highlight the difference between a certified licensed optician and an internet service that has eyewear made by $2/hr employees in China.

[LENNY]

made by $2/hr employees in China.

PROBABLY $2 PER DAY!

[bt5050]

My approach might be a little different, but it seems to work for me. I freely give out P.D.s, frame models, do adjustments on frames purchased at O.D. offices, Lenscrafters, and Costco, and replace screws and nosepads at no charge. I find that many of the patients then return to me for their glasses next year, and they refer friends.

i have found just the opp.
we used to to have pts - come in week after week - saying flat out - "WE DON'T get our glasses here - but can you ----""" fix these - adjust these - ect - they even say - those people where i got htem can not adjust them -

so why would i want to service these folks -?? i have seen it does not bring in buiness - ect -


it blows my mind - when people come in for extra trials for contacts ect - that do mail order -

i have no problem - giving out things for customers that value our buiness - but why would i give out trials - to someone that does not purchase from us - i should be saving these for our pts that need the service -

just my opinion

[Mr_Mitchell]

I do free repairs and adjustments because everyone else does, but I would never give or even measure a PD for someone just because they asked.

[uberoptiker]

How do you feel about your responsabilities under HIPPA?

[k12311997]

How do you feel about your responsabilities under HIPPA?

HIPPA only concerns medical records. The PD is not part of a prescription.



The only time a PD is taken is when glasses are ordered. The glasses order is proprietary to the business and not an integral part of the clients medical record.

[rbaker]

What is this HIPPA of which you cite?

[uberoptiker]

Oh. I see. The distance between an individual's eyes is some secret information that should be kept in safe by the optical cabal, lest the unwashed masses run amuck with dangerous notions of which they know not the consequences.
Once ONE optician tells a customer how far apart their eyes are, the cat's out of the bag.
GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!

[k12311997]

Oh. I see. The distance between an individual's eyes is some secret information that should be kept in safe by the optical cabal, lest the unwashed masses run amuck with dangerous notions of which they know not the consequences.
Once ONE optician tells a customer how far apart their eyes are, the cat's out of the bag.
GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!

That is a big leap from anything anyone said.

The question is how does it relate to HIPPA. The answer is not at all.

I wont give out a PD because of the potential of being blamed when the pt can't see out of the glasses purchased elsewhere. Is it the script? where the glasses made incorrectly? and how much of your time do you GIVE to the patient to troubleshoot? and why does the patient believe the online retailer that your measurements are wrong, because the pt can come yell at you and because your glasses cost too much and you gave them the wrong measurement to get back at them for not buying glasses from you.

[Framebender]

Its supposed to keep your medical information safe. It has stupid rules like I can't talk to you about your wifes information without her consent.

True story though. 2 OD's working the same practice split. The 1 who was working as an employee downloaded the master patient database, complete with socials and insurance information, employer, name and addresses. Did mailings to advertise their new practice. The owner OD files a HIPPA complaint. 3 months later he recieves a letter saying it certainly looked like a HIPPA violation. Unfortunately there was no funding for enforcement. If they ever did get money then they'd get right on it as long as too much time hadn't passed and the circumstances hadn't changed. Cracked me up!! HIPPA who?!?

I hope you're all having fun and making money!! Oh yeah, what is this thread about?? Uber, bud, you want a PD?? Send them to me. If its a personal deal I'll comp it. If you're making money then so should I!!

:cheers:

[RT]

HIPAA. One P. Two A's.

[HarryChiling]

HIPPO two P's one O. :D This is fun.

[MarcE]

HYPER: one A, two D's (and an H)

Now what were we talking about? Oh well, forget it. Hey, have you guys noticed these smiley thingies when you type a response?

[MarcE]

The Kansas statute requires the PD as part of the Rx, and my O.D. complies. However, I have NEVER seen an MD's Rx with a PD on it.
I know you were asking about NJ, but it is not really true that the PD is part of the opticians services. It is whatever your state law dictates. If it wasn't the law, we wouldn't give out PDs. That would be using our knowledge and skill to ensure that a potentially unskilled person is successful and filling our Rx. You need to pay for that service.

[Mr_Mitchell]

The only time I will give a PD is with children with amblyopia, because I have seen the effects of a incorrectly measured PD and I have sympathy for the kids.

Right on, Harry! I'm all for making money, but the kids shouldn't suffer because mommy's too cheap to pay a real optician. I don't support using a PD stick for its intended purpose in most cases as the pupilometer is more accurate and consistent, period, but you bring up a good case of why it's called a PD ruler and not an A, B, or whatever ruler.

[Barry Santini]

When I'm makin' glasses for friends and family out-of-state, I send them a PD ruler. I ask them to take a cellphone photo of their face, while holding the ruler up to the plane of their chin.

Using a simple compass, I can "dot" the pupils (or the pupil ht) and transfer the compass to the ruler for the desired measurement.

It's not a represenative measurement, but rather an accurate "comparative" measurement.

What do you all think?

Barry

[HarryChiling]

Definately a great way of doing things, you could also use photoshop to resize the image so that the ruler measures accurately and then use the measure tool within photoshop for your PD's and seg hgts. The problem though is the person who holds the PD ruler slightly away from their face, or the ruler thats not plane with the lens of the camera, it would be very easy for me to take a photo that I could later get measures from, but to get someone else to hold the ruler and the camera right isn't always so easy.

[Barry Santini]

Well, Harry, you can see that I don't know *beans* about Photoshop. I've got to learn it soon, though.

Your comments are right on!
Barry

[batmannorm]

I know this is years late, but I will answer the question about New Jersey and PD's. First see here. https://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/oph/Pages/FAQ.aspx Miscellaneous questions #4.
To answer the legal part. Just as there is no law that says you must fit a minor with polycarbonate lenses, there is no law that says a Licensed Optician in New Jersey must give a patient their PD regardless of whether they have purchased glasses in their office or not. There is no law that says they can not either. Historically, judges have not be kind to professionals who dont give polycarbonate lenses to minors, patients with one usable eye, etc, and then they get injured when polycarbonate lenses may have prevented that injury. Likewise it would be unwise for an Optician to randomly give a PD to a patient when they do not know what type of lenses are being ordered, what material, what size frame etc, is being used. The PD is not the only Optical Measurement that may be necessary to manufacture a pair of glasses. We tell patients it is the responsibility of the licensed optician fitting you with your specific choice of frames and lenses to accurately take and be responsible for that measurement. No optician or optometrist should be put in the position of give that information out with the potential for someone else's error down the line. It doesnt compare to an OD refracting a patient then giving them a copy of their Rx. If the patient has an issue, they paid the OD for their expertise for their exam. When patient's order digitally compensated lenses, the lab makes those adjustments based on an original Rx. It is the optician who must take the additional optical measurements along with the PD (just 1 of those optical measurements) to fabricate a correctly made pair of glasses. And for those of you who say, well if you made a pair of glasses, the patient is entitled to their medical record. The glasses are not a medical record, it is a work order. Only a Dr has a medical record. Even if you decide to give the patient a copy of their work order, there should be a warning placed on that patient copy, all measurements used herein apply only to the specific frame and lenses provided and should not be considered for any other pair of glasses. If you want to give a PD to a patient, you do it at your own risk, and run the risk of, if a patient has a problem, owning that problem, owning any legal action the patient may decide to take for the problem, and if you think in this day and age you are going to "win" patients over by offering to make better or more correct glasses, you may get one here or there, but the odds are not with you.