Nervous about 20min testing times?

**Hero** · 12-14-2006, 06:22 PM

Hi I'm from the UK and have been posting a few questions asking how optoms work in Canada compared to UK. It seems that you have the same 20 min testing, rush rush rush, squeeze in as many tests as you can routine as in the UK.
But how can you US & Canadian optoms be happy testing every 20mins? I thought everyone in your countries are all keen on taking legal action at every opportunity for multimillion dollar comensation claimss - thats the sort of thing we hear in the UK.
In 20mins it so easy to miss disease / pathology, miss a strabiismus etc. Not much time in 20mins for refraction followed by binocular vision testing and then decent fundoscopy.
Or are you guys not concerned about being taken to court because you are insured to the max and employers expect court actions so will not dismiss you in a flash?

**Hero** · 12-14-2006, 06:25 PM

Hi I'm from the UK and have been posting a few questions asking how optoms work in Canada compared to UK. It seems that you have the same 20 min testing, rush rush rush, squeeze in as many tests as you can routine as in the UK.
But how can you US & Canadian optoms be happy testing every 20mins? I thought everyone in your countries are all keen on taking legal action at every opportunity for multimillion dollar compensation claims - thats the sort of thing we hear in the UK.
In 20mins it so easy to miss disease / pathology, miss a strabiismus etc. Not much time in 20mins for refraction followed by binocular vision testing and then decent fundoscopy.
Or are you guys not concerned about being taken to court because you are insured to the max and employers expect court actions so will not dismiss you in a flash?

**k12311997** · 12-14-2006, 07:07 PM

Hero I can't help with your concerns being a mere optician, but as far as helping you understand the board you only need to post once in one place if it's the wrong place the moderators will move it.

**mike.elmes** · 12-14-2006, 07:17 PM

How long have you been practicing? I have seen many Optometric grads that start out around 30 min or so, but after a few thousand patients, things move a little quicker. :)

**Hero** · 12-15-2006, 04:19 AM

Hello Mike Elmes,
I've been practicing for years and do a test in 20-30 mins (depending on age).

But I have been under the impression (from rumours that have developed over the years in the UK) that US & Canada optoms take longer to test because the do more tests (pupil dilated fundoscopy, cameras etc) just to ensure that they don't make a mistake or miss any disease (because patients in your part of the world are hoping that you will make a mistake so they can make multi-million dollar compensation claims via the courts.... or so the rumour goes).:finger:

I want to come to Canada to work but I don't want to be more stressed out than I already am. I thought optoms charged $100+ per test and were independent of retail spectacle frame sellers - they just provided a prescription?)

**LENNY** · 12-15-2006, 08:57 AM

20 MIN!?
I thought its every 10 min!

**Fezz** · 12-15-2006, 09:00 AM

Now Lenny, we all know ten minutes is a bit rushed. The standard is 12 minutes, come on. ;^)

**EyeFitWell** · 12-15-2006, 09:37 AM

For the record, our doctor takes at least 30 minutes with each of his patients, and we book them that way.

**Echo419** · 12-15-2006, 10:02 AM

Hero, patients who go to commercial establishments or warehouses for their eyecare, have no interest in the quality of their eye exams. Case in point just last week a person who was posing as an optometrist in Florida was arrested after he had worked for year at several of these places. Sad thing is none of these patients could tell a real Dr from a layperson. Thier expectations are that low.

**EyeFitWell** · 12-15-2006, 10:26 AM

Echo-
If it walks like a duck, and has fancy equipment like a duck, why would expect people to figure it out? People do not question doctors, they trust doctors. Besides, I bet a lot of his patients get EE every ten years.

If I went to a doctor's appointment, and I had a slit lamp exam, check for pressure, and a refraction, I don't think I could tell a "real" doctor from a good immitation!

**Hero** · 12-15-2006, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by EyeFitWell

For the record, our doctor takes at least 30 minutes with each of his patients, and we book them that way.

Will you give me a job in your place. Say yes just to make me happy (I will not hold you to it). I want to work in Canada because here in the UK we hear how optoms work at a slower pace with no hassle from management because they are no way involved with spectacle sales. They do not need to pursuade patient that they need new spectacles (just to get money in the till).

**Framebender** · 12-15-2006, 11:52 AM

Dr to do 3 an hour. We neutralize, autorefract. Dr does everything else. We have an older Dr and sometimes he gets cranky if we don't keep hime busy. So about every other hour we'll throw a CL check in just to keep him on his toes and off our backs!

Happy Holidays!!

:cheers:

**mike.elmes** · 12-15-2006, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hero

Hello Mike Elmes,
I've been practicing for years and do a test in 20-30 mins (depending on age).

But I have been under the impression (from rumours that have developed over the years in the UK) that US & Canada optoms take longer to test because the do more tests (pupil dilated fundoscopy, cameras etc) just to ensure that they don't make a mistake or miss any disease (because patients in your part of the world are hoping that you will make a mistake so they can make multi-million dollar compensation claims via the courts.... or so the rumour goes).:finger:

I want to come to Canada to work but I don't want to be more stressed out than I already am. I thought optoms charged $100+ per test and were independent of retail spectacle frame sellers - they just provided a prescription?)

I have been in the industry for 25 years and don't see this to be a true representation of what goes on here in Canada. The lawyers and litigators are much busier south of the border. I would doubt that even half of the people I see coming from Optomertry have had a pupil dialated fundoscopy. Thats not to say they arent reccomending it to their patients, but the numbers seem low to me. Our industry is very diverse and there are many independent Opto practices that have nothing to do with retail, except some contact lens work. They would be lucky, and happy to have you:) . There is a general shortage of both Optometrist and Opticians here in Canada.

**orangezero** · 12-16-2006, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by mike.elmes

There is a general shortage of both Optometrist and Opticians here in Canada.

Is this really true?

Perhaps I should move up north :)

**Ory** · 12-16-2006, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by orangezero

Is this really true?

Perhaps I should move up north :)

We're not as oversupplied as in the US. Keep in mind Mike is in Alberta, though. My experience was that in Edmonton there are plenty of ODs but travel any distance and they become few and far between. Most new grads want to be in the big cities, no one wants to move too rural. Setting up a practice in a smaller town 1-2 hours from a major city would be quite lucrative.

The Waterloo school of optometry is increasing enrollment currently. Again, probably 50% of the class want to end up in Toronto or nearby. Something like 75% of Montreal grads stay in Quebec. Out west a lot of ODs went to Pacific in Oregon.

You'd probably like Canada. We don't have to deal with VSP yet, just antiquated provincial health care reimbursement.:cheers:

**EyeFitWell** · 12-21-2006, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Hero

Will you give me a job in your place. Say yes just to make me happy (I will not hold you to it). I want to work in Canada because here in the UK we hear how optoms work at a slower pace with no hassle from management because they are no way involved with spectacle sales. They do not need to pursuade patient that they need new spectacles (just to get money in the till).

Sometimes, the doctor owns the dispensery. It is commonly accepted that being an Optical shop w/o a doc, or a Doc w/o a shop makes things much much more difficult (profit wise). My Doc is very ethical, and maybe errors on the side of protecting the patient's wallet. However, his optical shop (me!) is a very large portion of the profits we take in. An optical shop w/o a doctor has a hard time getting people to shop there. So, I'd say that for the most part, OD's in america frequently are interested in selling eyeglasses, but they are also usually the BOSS.:D

**eyedoctor** · 12-22-2006, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by EyeFitWell

Sometimes, the doctor owns the dispensery. It is commonly accepted that being an Optical shop w/o a doc, or a Doc w/o a shop makes things much much more difficult (profit wise). My Doc is very ethical, and maybe errors on the side of protecting the patient's wallet. However, his optical shop (me!) is a very large portion of the profits we take in. An optical shop w/o a doctor has a hard time getting people to shop there. So, I'd say that for the most part, OD's in america frequently are interested in selling eyeglasses, but they are also usually the BOSS.:D

I'm a practicing OD in Ottawa, Ontario and I'd also have to say that the real money is in shop-owners, whether they're OD's or OOD's... The regulations differ a bit from one province to the other, and here in Ontario, for instance, I cannot be associated with an optical store (conflict of interest) but can however own a dispensary (I wish I did!!).

So if you're planning on setting up anywhere in Canada, obviously if you can own a dispensary, it would be more lucrative for you. That being said, I previously commented on my very first choice of areas to set up, had I not been born and raised in Ottawa...

Knowing what I know now, if I were immigrating to Canada, I would definitely choose to plant my root in the west (Vancouver or Victoria in British Columbia, or somewhere in Alberta)... I grew up here in Ottawa, so friends and family keep me here, and moving was not an option, but some of my OD collegues from school went out to set up shop in the west and when comparing notes, they REALLY have it good over there! The money is easily 40 to 50% more, and the working environment is the same if not a little better. It seems to be a supply and demand issue as the previous poster had mentionned... Most Montreal graduates set up in the province of Quebec, and most Waterloo graduates set up in the province of Ontario, thus leaving the rest of Canada a bit scarce for OD's! Plus everyone is always raving about the milder weather out west, especially in Vancouver and Victoria (keep telling myself I need to visit there sometime!!).

As for the 20min testing times... I believe, as one poster said, it may depend on the type of setting you're working in. I currently see 3 patients an hour, BUT that's also because I have an assistant doing all the pretesting as well as dilating every patient we see. If I were without an assistant, I would need 30minutes to do the same extensive examinations. But some places that are more "Walmart" style operations pump out 3 to 4 patients an hour and don't necessarily do all the same testing, so it's all relative.

Kamy :)