Physio 360 Gold or Junk??

[EyeFitWell]

I am very dissaspointed with the performance of this Physio 360! I've done about 8 total pairs now (in addition to TONS of regular Physios). I've used the 360 only on patients with higher powers and every single one of them has been returned.
In the lensometer, they don't look crisp but I was told not to worry about that. (The first pair I ordered I sent back to the lab three times before I mentioned it to Doc, and he said it's probably just the lensometer that can't read it).
The most recent one, for example, the right lens was -7.75 sph. In the lensometer, it definately was most clear at 7.75 (more so than a little above or below) but no matter what I did, it never looked completely crisp. I calibrated my lensometer just to be sure (I'm the only one who uses it) and still, doesn't look crisp. I spun the axis wheel to look for waves and didn't find anything. So I dispensed them, and a week later she's back wanting a Rx check/remake. She can't see.

Why am I selling an outrageously expensive, "more accurate than anything before" lens that they can't even get on power??? Is there something I should know about these wavefront lenses? I thought the whole point of the digital surfacing was more accuracy, and yet every other lens in any material looks better in the lensometer...

I'm looking forward to my appointment with the shamir rep.

[Fezz]

Rant mode on:



Your first mistake was believing the Essilor hype.
Your second mistake was using an Essilor product.


Rant mode off:

There are many lenses that will cost much less and beat or exceed your expectations.

[EyeFitWell]

I've heard you say that many times, and I'm starting to see the light.
I've had lots of success with other essilor products, but the P360 is just hype.

[Jacqui]

You'll like Shamir better

[mike.elmes]

We have done the best upgrading nikon wearers with the new W, and upgrading Varilux wearers with the physio....or Ipseo. The 360's we've sold haven't come back though.

[Bill West]

Rant mode on:



Your first mistake was believing the Essilor hype. AMEN!
Your second mistake was using an Essilor product.


Rant mode off:

There are many lenses that will cost much less and beat or exceed your expectations.

I sit through a forced, hour of ed, one hour of hype and advertising by a speaker that read almost every word off a essilor rap sheet. Don't buy into a single bit of it.:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: Waste of time.

[Excalibur]

I must have sat through the same info session. The rep stood at the podium and read off a prepared statement. Unbelievable.

I use Seiko Succeed progressives on most patients, although technically they are more beneficial if you are using them on higher cyls or adds. I like to keep things simple and only use several progressives in my office. To date, my non-adapt rate on the Seiko lenses have been less than 0.5%. Not bad.

I also use the Rodenstock lenses too if price is an issue for a patient, although the Seiko free forms are still quite reasonable. The Life 2 and XS products are very good and price is pretty good.

Is there some hyperbole being spread by some of the lens reps. You bet! If you look at Sheedy's paper at the Ohio State University's School of Optometry site it will show you some interesting measurements of various progressives including aberrations. Shamir products do very well, but as I understand difficult to obtain in Canada where I practice. Shamir apparently does a lot of lens design work for other companies so their knowledge of progressives/optics, etc is excellent.

[AWTECH]

Excalibur said:

I use Seiko Succeed progressives on most patients, although technically they are more beneficial if you are using them on higher cyls or adds. I like to keep things simple and only use several progressives in my office. To date, my non-adapt rate on the Seiko lenses have been less than 0.5%. Not bad.

Check the non-adapt rate!

In the US you can contact ICE-TECH for both the Seiko Succeed as well as ICE-TECH's own Advanced Lens designs. ICE-TECH is the only company producing lenses exclusively with digital individualized lens designs. We can also produce a fantastic wrap around Advanced Polarized Lens in single vision or PAL. Patented technology lenses produced by ICE-TECH are not available from any other company.

E-mail or private message me for more information or call 888-ICE-TECH

[Bobie]

Maybe Essilor needs more time to produce Free Form PALs. :bbg:

[MarySue]

I recently attended a session of the Varillux Academy here in New Zealand, and one of the topics delivered by David Wilson, Head Teacher at OTEN, was just this - PAL designs - the advancements being made.

He explained that due to the optimisation of some lenses, the vert was no longer able to neutralise the lens in a flat plane - as the prescription had been adjusted to the plane of the tilt angle of the frame.

This fact had opened my eyes, and I realise now with lenses like the Zeiss Indivdual and Sola EgoOne - we have adjusted RX sheets to verify scripts with - but Physio or the Phsio 360 include no verification sheets.

They say the Coma affect is eliminated with the new technology, but my experience has been the lens is slightly foggy in all planes.

I've never had a problem with the Hoya ID, Sola One Ego lenses, Zeiss Individual - so for me, when selling premium products those are the products I deal with.

[Bobie]

Great post , Mary Sue :bbg:
Let me find out the truth of all PALs to protect our patient from the empire of PALs who always try to sell their PALs in too expensive price if compared to other PALs from other companies. :bbg:

[OPTIDONN]

Gread post , Mary Sue :bbg:
Let we find out the truth of all PALs to protect our patient from the empire of PALs who always try to sell their PALs in too expensive price if compare to other PALs from other company. :bbg:

What "truth" are you talking about? Learn basic optics, read up on progressive lens designs, Darryl has done some terrific articles as well as Pete's CE in 20/20 the other month (sorry I don't have the links) and make an informed decision. I can't tell if your looking for the PERFECT progressive lens, if you are there is NO such thing. If you are attempting to find away to educate ECP's on progressive lens designs so they can make an informed decision then keep up the good work

[Darryl Meister]

I've done about 8 total pairs now (in addition to TONS of regular Physios). I've used the 360 only on patients with higher powers and every single one of them has been returned.

Keep in mind that, while a free-form optimized version of a good progressive lens will ideally perform better than the semi-finished version, you are fitting your most "problematic" Rx ranges in these lenses, which will naturally increase the likelihood of non-adapts. That said, a 0% success rate does seem like something might be amiss; you should consider contacting your Essilor representative about this.

ICE-TECH is the only company producing lenses exclusively with digital individualized lens designs.

Several of the larger lens companies produce "digital individualized lens designs," and have for some time.

They say the Coma affect is eliminated with the new technology, but my experience has been the lens is slightly foggy in all planes.

I don't know that anyone is really claiming to "eliminate" coma, in free-form lenses or otherwise. Every progressive lens surface must produce a very predictable amount of coma as a consequence of the changing surface power, though the lens designer can choose to minimize coma in certain regions of the lens -- at the expense of others. "Softer" lens designs, for instance, will often have lower average levels of coma over the entire lens, while "harder" lens designs will often have higher average levels over the lens but lower levels in the central distance and near viewing zones.

[AWTECH]

Darryl Meister said:

Several of the larger lens companies produce "digital individualized lens designs," and have for some time.

In response to:

ICE-TECH is the only company producing lenses exclusively with digital individualized lens designs.

Yes Darryl I am aware of this but all of these companies produce and surface traditional products using traditional machines and methods. My point was that ICE-TECH is the only company 100% forcused on the production of digitally surfaced lenses.

[Darryl Meister]

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[Bobie]

Hi, OPTIDONN
I have looked all of your URL , but it seems too basic for me.
Please inform me more detail of your PALs. :bbg:

[OPTIDONN]

Hi, OPTIDONN
I look all of your URL , but it seem like too basic for me.
Please inform me more detail of your PALs. :bbg:

Sure thing:bbg: PM me with what you want to know.

[EyeFitWell]

Darryl,
My essilor rep is VERY NICE, and I am not bashing him, but my Shamir rep knew more about essilor's products than he did/does. He used to be in retail sales (outside of optical) and doesn't really quite understand how the lenses work. He's basically just repeating the hype he's heard, but doesn't seem to understand when I ask questions like, "what is wavefront lens technology?" or "can you drill 1.74?" etc.

We're going to try a month worth of getting people into the Creation. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

[Darryl Meister]

My essilor rep is VERY NICE, and I am not bashing him, but my Shamir rep knew more about essilor's products than he did/does.

Having worked with reps from both companies, I can tell you that there's a good possibility that your Shamir rep only thinks she/he knows more about Essilor's products than your Essilor rep. Now, if your Shamir rep has had considerably more optical training than your Essilor rep, that's another story...

[AWTECH]

EyeFitWell said:

We're going to try a month worth of getting people into the Creation. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

I am curious why you choose the creation rather than a freeform product since your post started with the lack of statisfaction regarding a specific individualized lens (Physio 360).

EyeFitWell also said:

My essilor rep is VERY NICE, and I am not bashing him, but my Shamir rep knew more about essilor's products than he did/does. He used to be in retail sales (outside of optical) and doesn't really quite understand how the lenses work. He's basically just repeating the hype he's heard, but doesn't seem to understand when I ask questions like, "what is wavefront lens technology?" or "can you drill 1.74?" etc.

If you want to know and understand what you are selling ICE-TECH can provide factory direct information with knowledge about what you are selling from the people who developed the technology you would be selling. Remember all freeform designs are not alike. Don't give up on individualized lenses because you are not happy with one design.

The words freeform when talking about the Shamir Creation have nothing in common with an individualized lens that the machine tool manufacturers refer to as freeform lenses. Shamir is simply applying the word freeform, (which they trademarked in various forms), to traditionally produced PAL designs. Almost all molds today are built using freeform technology to build these molds so lens companies that are now talking about their digitally produced molds are not really talking about individualized lenses.

As an example with the Shamir Creation there are about 2,500 possible lens designs, with a good individualized lens there are over 2 million different designs available each one individually created.

I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion in the market place regarding individualized lenses.

[Darryl Meister]

As an example with the Shamir Creation there are about 2,500 possible lens designs

I only come up with 72 for Creation in hard resin (6 Bases x 12 Adds)...?

[Bobie]

EyeFitWell , I will look forward to your feedback about Shamir Creation. :cheers:

Darryl , nobody can be smart in PALs if they never tried fitting by themselves over 1,000 real wearer and I never believe what PALs' company rep inform , because most of them work like a robot who informs us what PALs company says and many times they do not inform us the truth.

AWTECH , Please inform me more about Shamir Creation. :D

[EyeFitWell]

Having worked with reps from both companies, I can tell you that there's a good possibility that your Shamir rep only thinks she/he knows more about Essilor's products than your Essilor rep. Now, if your Shamir rep has had considerably more optical training than your Essilor rep, that's another story...

The Shamir Rep was a dispensing optician for 13 years. The Essilor Rep sold cell phones. Nuff Said.
I asked him, what is wavefront? He said, "You know how you put a balloon in the microwave and it puffs up and then you cut the corners and it lays flat again? That's wavefront."
I know the guy just doesn't understand it himself, and finds it that much harder to explain it to other people, but for 8 months now I've been trying to figure this Physio stuff out and finally a rep said something to me that made sense! (The shamir rep) I don't like having to explain a product to my customers if I don't understand it myself.

[EyeFitWell]

AW Tech-
We're using the Creation as opposed to the Autograph because
1. Most patients are currently wearing the Comfort.
2. We haven't really had any trouble with the Physio, but we haven't had any real "wows" either.
3. We currently only have an account with essilor labs, and they cannot get the autograph for us.
So, the idea is, if all goes well with the Creation, maybe I can get Doc to open an account with a nonessilor lab and try out the autograph!

[AWTECH]

Darryl said:

I only come up with 72 for Creation in hard resin (6 Bases x 12 Adds)...?

I was thinking about the number of cylinder and sphere cut combinations plus the blanks. (And it was an off the top of my head estimate)

I think what many people are not understanding about direct surfacing is the ability to design a better lens rather than have steps that are close to the correct solution. Between the steps is where the power errors occur.