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Thread: What do you think of this statement?

  1. #26
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    The celebration of Christs birthday (Christmas) was moved from January to december to coincide with a pagan holiday which was a gimmic to convert pagans, so technically lower case christmas would be correct for a December christmas.
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    Shame on you, harry.

  3. #28
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
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    Well regardless of your religious views on the subject, my nine year old son points out that Christmas is a holiday, and just like any other holiday is capitalized in the English Language.
    "Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland

  4. #29
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    [quote=Spexvet;166296] Isn't it really the conservatives who are initiating actions that would cause their morals to become law? quote]

    If by conservatives you mean the republicans, what makes you think that these actions reflect their personal morals? Do they not actually reflect the so-called morals of the groups that contribute enormous amounts of money to the party?

  5. #30
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocoisland58 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet View Post
    Isn't it really the conservatives who are initiating actions that would cause their morals to become law?
    If by conservatives you mean the republicans, what makes you think that these actions reflect their personal morals? Do they not actually reflect the so-called morals of the groups that contribute enormous amounts of money to the party?
    That would be even worse! To initiate legislation to make other peoples' morals law just to get their votes would be prostitution. They would have truly sold themselves out, in a deceitful, cowardly way
    ...Just ask me...

  6. #31
    That Boy Ain't Right Blake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet View Post
    How about from the perspective that my morals might well not be the same as yours, so I'm not going to impose them on you.
    Okay, but what if your morals prompt you to consider embryonic stem cell research worthy of federal funding? Would you rather keep the gov't out of it so as not to impose your morality on those who might object?

    Or maybe you believe in taking care of the poor. Would you have the government confiscate the wealth of others in order give it to the poor, because you feel morally obligated to do so?
    Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear brighter before you hear them speak.

  7. #32
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    What-what-what.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake View Post

    Or maybe you believe in taking care of the poor. Would you have the government confiscate the wealth of others in order give it to the poor, because you feel morally obligated to do so?
    You mean they're not already doing that? Chris..

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet View Post
    That would be even worse! To initiate legislation to make other peoples' morals law just to get their votes would be prostitution. They would have truly sold themselves out, in a deceitful, cowardly way
    Yes, but it's job security.

  9. #34
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake View Post
    Okay, but what if your morals prompt you to consider embryonic stem cell research worthy of federal funding? Would you rather keep the gov't out of it so as not to impose your morality on those who might object?
    Or maybe you believe in taking care of the poor. Would you have the government confiscate the wealth of others in order give it to the poor, because you feel morally obligated to do so?
    With conservatives, why does it always come back to the money?

    We all pay taxes for things we don't wamt to. My taxes are going to a war that is causing the pointless deaths of my fellow Americans. I'm subsidizing Big Oil's record profits, against my will. I'm watching the rich get richer, yet not accept the responsibility of paying the taxes that they certainly can afford to pay, by using tax loopholes and shelters that aren't available to someone of my means.

    Having said that, I'm not a big proponent of tax subsidy for stem cell research. We'll end up shelling out alot of tax dollars, then have to pay Big Pharma big dollars for stem cell medicine/technology when it's finally developed. As far as helping the poor? Societies and governments exist to help those who CAN'T help themselves. If you get into trouble, there'll be a safety net for you, just like everyone else. If you don't want to support your fellow human beings, maybe you want to buy an island, found Blakeland, and try doing it on your own. The "poor" issue would not be an issue if there wasn't such a great disparity between rich and poor. If the superwealthy could just accept a little less income, and pay their front line workers more, there would be less incentive to go on welfare.
    ...Just ask me...

  10. #35
    Master OptiBoarder keithbenjamin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet View Post
    I'm watching the rich get richer, yet not accept the responsibility of paying the taxes that they certainly can afford to pay, by using tax loopholes and shelters that aren't available to someone of my means.
    As of 2003 the top 1% of income earners pay 34% of all income taxes in the US. The top half pay 97% of all income taxes in the US. How much would it take to be fair?

    -Keith

  11. #36
    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FVCCHRIS View Post
    You mean they're not already doing that? Chris..

    James Madison explicitly argued this was the job of government, and vetoed a bill which was going to give federal funding to churches for the explicit purpose of feeding the poor/homeless. Madison said that this was the job of government and it would corrupt the churches (he was a devout Christian) if they received money from government.
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  12. #37
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin View Post
    As of 2003 the top 1% of income earners pay 34% of all income taxes in the US. The top half pay 97% of all income taxes in the US. How much would it take to be fair?

    -Keith
    Who said anything about fair? It's about ability to contribute. I guess you feel it's right for someone to own three Ferraris while Americans working full-time have to live out of their car because they can't afford housing.

    Let's say that your sister get's divorced, and is raising two kids on her own. She's working full time, but isn't highly skilled and doesn't earn high wages. You go out to dinner with her. Your entre is $40.00, hers is $20.00. Do you split the tab evenly, each pay for what you ate, or do you pick up the whole tab?
    ...Just ask me...

  13. #38
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin View Post
    As of 2003 the top 1% of income earners pay 34% of all income taxes in the US. The top half pay 97% of all income taxes in the US. How much would it take to be fair?

    -Keith
    What percentage of their income does that represent?
    ...Just ask me...

  14. #39
    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin View Post
    As of 2003 the top 1% of income earners pay 34% of all income taxes in the US. The top half pay 97% of all income taxes in the US. How much would it take to be fair?

    -Keith
    I think the proper reference is to the top 2% of taxpayers, but I really don't have time to go back and look it up.

    However, as I recall, if you include FICA taxes, the share paid by the top tier of taxpayers shrinks to around 25% - and including FICA taxes is reasonable, since the 1986 reforms basically shifted revenue from the progressive income tax to the regressive FICA tax. (For perspective, consider that FICA brings in around $700 billion, presently $200 billion in excess of payments, and other federal revenues amount to around $1.5 trillion).

    Standing alone - that 2% should pay 25% of taxes - looks compelling, doesn't it (even more so if it is 1%)?

    It's less so when you consider that the top tier earns around 25% of the income, as well, which means, taxation overall is pretty close to flat.

    In other words, the numbers you cite are devoid of meaning, unless you include the shares of income earned by the groups, as well. It's also misleading to exclude FICA taxes for the reason cited above; it's been supporting a substantial part of the overall federal burden for the last 20 years.

  15. #40
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    Try this....

    Everyone contributing to this thread continue the discussion after today's 3 martini lunch. What do you say huh? :cheers: Chris..

  16. #41
    Master OptiBoarder keithbenjamin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet View Post
    Let's say that your sister get's divorced, and is raising two kids on her own. She's working full time, but isn't highly skilled and doesn't earn high wages. You go out to dinner with her. Your entre is $40.00, hers is $20.00. Do you split the tab evenly, each pay for what you ate, or do you pick up the whole tab?
    ...or does the waiter not give you a choice, but comes over with a gun at his side and says, "You WILL be paying for the lady as well as yourself tonight. Oh, and while your at it, you will also give me $5 because you never know when I'll find something to waste it on, on the way back to the kitchen."

  17. #42
    Master OptiBoarder keithbenjamin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanbaum View Post
    I think the proper reference is to the top 2% of taxpayers, but I really don't have time to go back and look it up.
    http://www.house.gov/jec/publication...3taxshares.pdf

  18. #43
    On the Sunset Tour! Framebender's Avatar
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    Redhot Jumper I'm with Chris. . .!!

    Can we get Spexie to pick up the tab for the drinks or do we have to send the waiter with the gun?!?

    :cheers::cheers:
    Days where my gratitude exceed my expectations are very good days!

  19. #44
    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin View Post
    Those stats do not include FICA taxes. They do support my original recollection, however, that the top 2% takes around 25% of income (see pg. 3).

  20. #45
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    Yaa Baby....

    Quote Originally Posted by Framebender View Post
    Can we get Spexie to pick up the tab for the drinks or do we have to send the waiter with the gun?!?

    :cheers::cheers:
    Politics, Alcohol, Money, Violence!! Is this a Sopranos episode???:shiner:

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    Book Recommeded

    Spex:
    Please read Das Capital written by a man who agrees with you completely.

    Chip

  22. #47
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin View Post
    ...or does the waiter not give you a choice, but comes over with a gun at his side and says, "You WILL be paying for the lady as well as yourself tonight. Oh, and while your at it, you will also give me $5 because you never know when I'll find something to waste it on, on the way back to the kitchen."
    That's like dealing with a fairy tale scenario.

    I get your point, though. The government takes my money against my will and does things like foolishly invading Iraq, impeaching President Clinton, suing Oregon over the right to die with dignity, pursuing laws and policies limiting a woman's right to choose, helping Georgia recover from wildfires, and assorted other BS. Nonetheless, people whose disposable income is in the millions can certainly afford to pay more taxes than you or I can.
    ...Just ask me...

  23. #48
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Framebender View Post
    Can we get Spexie to pick up the tab for the drinks or do we have to send the waiter with the gun?!?

    :cheers::cheers:
    Drinks are on me!
    ...Just ask me...

  24. #49
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Spex:
    Please read Das Capital written by a man who agrees with you completely.

    Chip
    He agrees that people who earn more can afford to pay more? You've gotta have a pretty low IQ to not agree with that.
    ...Just ask me...

  25. #50
    Master OptiBoarder Grubendol's Avatar
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    Here is the reality....taxes pay for the use of the Commons. If you don't pay taxes, you don't really deserve the right to use the highways, the electricity, the radio, the fire department, the police department, or any other aspect. And just as well, without paying taxes, these services would not exist.

    The cost of doing business or living in our society, is helping to pay for it's functionality. You are free to not pay taxes, just leave the country or found your own nation where the roads are all private and toll, the electricity costs more because the private companies fronted their own money to run the wires, etc.
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