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Thread: Large seg height

  1. #1
    OptiBoard Professional Ory's Avatar
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    Large seg height

    Having not been in this business in the days of huge frames, I really don't know what the correct thing to do with a large seg height is.

    Had a patient in today. She wants to keep her 20 year old frame with a measured PAL seg height of 28, this is her first bifocal, with a lower add (+1.00 I think) Sure, sure, some of you have fit larger heights than this! :D

    Do I use a newer lens with minimum fitting height of 18 or so, or an older design with a larger minimum? Will it make any significant difference?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Nothing fancy...

    Depending on her Rx, I'd go with an older model with proven quality results. Can't help but suggest the Varilux Comfort here or perhaps even the Image by Younger. I really don't see the need for any of the short corridor designs and have not yet fallen on the "Super-Duper" wave-front blah blah bandwagon yet. Chris.

  3. #3
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    I can't make any sense, of what you are asking here!

  4. #4
    Master OptiBoarder
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    Oh I get it! You said bifocal and it confused me! This is her 1st PAL...not bifocal. I see PAL heigths like that all the time. Fit her with whatever lens design you like.

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    Hi Ory,

    Actually a lot of small fit PALs are really bad when you need a 28 seg ht. There is a lot of unuseable lens area that far down. You should stick with what she is wearing and loves. I bet it is an old Sola VIP or something like that. Twenty years ago the minimum seg ht was 24.

    How I long for those days now!!!!!!!

    Now its hard to find a frame with a "B" larger than 24 :bbg:


    Edit:
    I just noticed its the first PAL. FVCChris is right, Go with a older lens with a 20-24 minimum seg ht.There are many out there
    Last edited by Leo Hadley Jr; 10-10-2006 at 09:21 PM.
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  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder optigrrl's Avatar
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    I would recommend the Zeiss Gradal Top. Even though the mfgr says that it can be fit at 18mm, you are practically cutting off the reading at that height. I normally refuse to fit that design any lower than 22mm myself. It has a 14 or 15mm channel so the peripheral distortion above the 180 is very clean. This is an easy lens to adapt to as well, as far as old technology goes...

  7. #7
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Someone already said the Sola VIP,, but I got to tell you I think it is a better lens than a varilux or gradal top. I have never had any problems with the VIP and they come in a decentered design so you can fit them in huge glasses, plus a buch of materials to choose from.
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    My advice: sell her a new frame

    The good news is when her 20 year old frame breaks next month (partially due to the stress of inserting new lenses), you can sell her a new frame AND new lenses! Of course this type of patient will want you to re-edge her existing lenses into a new frame. And then she won't like it because the add was cut off! Therefore, based on my extremely cynical view you should do three things in order of importance:

    1. Inform her of the risks of using this frame and have her sign a waiver.
    2. Charge her a lens insertion fee, because some sort of work will have to done to the frame.
    2. Use a progressive that is fit at 18mm so you have options when she comes in for her re-grind.

    Editorial: How could someone endure wearing the same frame for 20 years?! I know we have all seen these patients, but I get tired of mine after a week.

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    OptiBoard Professional Ory's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice all.

    I was planning on using the Gradal Top. Probably still will, as we deal with a lot of Zeiss products in the office.

    I tried desperately to convince her to change the frame, then passed her off to my optician who did the same. No go. I think it looks bad, but it truly is in great shape. She obviously has very neutral skin because some of the original temple markings are still there.

    I think this is one of those situations where you do what the patient wants, ask her to tell no one where she got the glasses, and send her out the door! :D :D :D

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    I know it depends on the distance prescription too but ... at a +1.00 add, is it really going to matter all that much?

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder LENNY's Avatar
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    Sola XL !
    The best lens for the money (if fitted corectly)!

  12. #12
    OptiBoard Professional Excel-Lentes's Avatar
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    Check out the Definity PAL with Ground View Advantage. Below the reading section there is "a unique zone of visual correction that provides clearer vision and greater clarity for patients looking down".

    I just happened to have this in front of me. It sounds like a good option for a larger B measurement. I would, however hate to see a nice new lens like this be wasted on an old, crusty frame.:finger:

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    How could someone endure wearing the same frame ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcE View Post
    Editorial: How could someone endure wearing the same frame for 20 years?! I know we have all seen these patients, but I get tired of mine after a week.
    Answer:

    Having an add of +1.00, I would assume that patient is in the mid to late forties.

    If at that age a women is not fashion consious it purely a matter of economics and she can not afford it. However she wants a progressive to hide her age and that is expensive enough for her pockets.

    You will see many more like that in 2007 if the market analyst's forecast holds up and start preparing to handle older frames without extra charges and not breaking them.

    :finger:
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    handling older frames

    Chris,
    I always charge extra to edge a lens for a person's frame and this is why:

    1. At our optical, the mounting charge is included in the frame price, not the lens price. We do this because of different edging costs, such as rimless, drills and wraps.
    2. The used frame gets some work such as new nosepads, temple tips, and screws. They almost always need something. I will be the last one to work on that frame and I don't want a patient saying "I was fine until you put new lenses in and now the screw gets loose". Your time and skill is not free.
    3. What if I do break the frame? By now the new lenses are cut and the frame is discontinued. I apologize and tell the patient to pick out a new frame, our treat (up to a certain $ amount). I can afford to do this because I have been collecting the mounting fees. I have just turned a dicey situation into a patient pleasing experience. They now have a story to tell their friends.
    4. My competition does it.

    BTW: What does LC charge, if anything, for mounting new lenses in a patients frame? What if it is a drill mount? If anyone has the answer, I would like to know.

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    Paper Shuffler GOS_Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcE View Post
    BTW: What does LC charge, if anything, for mounting new lenses in a patients frame? What if it is a drill mount? If anyone has the answer, I would like to know.

    As of January, 2006 (when I left) there was no charge for using a COF/POF.

    We were never to reuse a drill mount - even one we previously sold to the patient. We were instructed to tell the customer that it was a "one time use" purchase.
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    Master OptiBoarder ziggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcE View Post
    BTW: What does LC charge, if anything, for mounting new lenses in a patients frame? What if it is a drill mount? If anyone has the answer, I would like to know.
    At our local LC they wont use a pof,, even if they sold the frame a year ago.
    Paul:cheers:

  17. #17
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Not to hijack the thread, but I ask the lens recommenders this question:

    Why did you recommend an "older" design? Is there implicit acceptance of the fact that "newer designs" aren't better?

    Are you suggesting that designs with longer corridor lengths are superior to the newer, "higher and wider" designs?

    What about improvements in off-axis clarity? Are you considering that the newer designs minimize this?

    What do you think the optimal corridor length would be, for any "generic person", such as mentioned in this post?

    Just trying to start a theoretical discussion on lens design concepts...

  18. #18
    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ory View Post
    Do I use a newer lens with minimum fitting height of 18 or so, or an older design with a larger minimum?
    Emerging presbyopic PAL wearers will usually prefer a very soft, medium to long corridor design, minimizing swim and maximizing the distance zone. Some examples of PAL designs that fit these criteria are ECP, Percepta, Genesis, Gradal Top, and so on.

    What happens below 20mm is essentially immaterial considering that the reading depth for most folks is going to be no more than 15mm, and although the longer corridor lenses don't reach their full add power until 18 to 20mm, they do reach about 85% of their add power at 15mm. If the add is +1.00D, then the power at 15mm is .85D, close enough considering the depth of focus at this power.

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  19. #19
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    Along the lines of drk's last comment, why old technologies? If my Uncle Whatshisface needs a knee replacement, he doesn't get the 1984 version. He gets the TODAY version. THe TODAY version is vastly different than the old designs. I don't feel that the newer progressives designs are vastly different than the older desings...Do you? I guess we could all be dispensing Adapters, AO OMNI,TruVisions,Seiko P-6, Line-Free and Super No Lines, etc. I believe it was brought up already, but check back at old lay out or cut out charts at the manufactures recommended seg heights. I believe the Varilux/Essilor brands all used to be 22 or 24 high, now they say 18!!!!!!!! So alot of the so called "newer" designs are not really different than the "old" designs when seg height recommendations are concerned. Food for thought.

    Fezz
    :cheers:
    Last edited by Fezz; 10-11-2006 at 12:58 PM. Reason: addition

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    Hype...

    I remember all those years that essilor told us never to fit the comfort below 22mm due to corridor length, the patient would have problems with it AND the labs would not honor warranted redo's for anything below 22mm. Then when the A/O compact hit the market and began slamming Varilux's sales(JMO) due to smaller "B" measurements, all of a sudden the reps were saying "OH no problem, you can fit it down to 18mm w/o any trouble". It was at that point that I truly began to take what the manufacturers were telling us about their "new" lenses with a grain of salt.
    I am a myopic, astigmatic presbyope and have tried many different prog's w/o noticing much difference in any of them. I still have trouble recommending newer lens designs to patients when I know the "old stuff" works just fine. I know from a business standpoint it may be flawed thinking but that's just the way I see it. Chris.

  21. #21
    Optiboard Professional Bill West's Avatar
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    Make her real happy

    Sola PERCEPTA: I have fitted a bunch of them 28/31 high. Even wore one my self and would go back to one tomorrow if I went to larger frame.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excel-Lentes View Post
    Check out the Definity PAL with Ground View Advantage. Below the reading section there is "a unique zone of visual correction that provides clearer vision and greater clarity for patients looking down".

    I just happened to have this in front of me. It sounds like a good option for a larger B measurement. I would, however hate to see a nice new lens like this be wasted on an old, crusty frame.:finger:
    That's what I was going to say! It would even make adaptation easier b/c she won't have to do a summersault to see steps she's walking down.

    You could always ask her to sign a waiver stating that she understands the risks involved with using an old frame. That way, if something accidentially happens...:cheers:

    JUST KIDDING!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcE View Post
    Chris,
    BTW: What does LC charge, if anything, for mounting new lenses in a patients frame? What if it is a drill mount? If anyone has the answer, I would like to know.
    My DH was a lab manager there for over five years, and he had to 'inspect' any POF. If there were obvious problems, we would tell the patient about it, but he said that we couldn't refuse any POF no matter how likely it is that it will snap. Just as long as the pt is informed of the dangers, there's no down side for your business of trying. There was no charge for using a POF.

  24. #24
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Redhot Jumper trouble recommending newer lens designs......................

    Quote Originally Posted by FVCCHRIS View Post
    I still have trouble recommending newer lens designs to patients when I know the "old stuff" works just fine. I know from a business standpoint it may be flawed thinking but that's just the way I see it. Chris.
    Why are there new designs..................when the old stuff works ????????

    The competition has come with a new one with a couple mm shorter corridor, 1 mm wider and so forth.................but basically all the same and the corporate knights can fight me again on this one.

    The rest is all advetising hype for which you are paying by purchasing these highly priced lenses.
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  25. #25
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    see www.profitoptix.com calligraphy has recommended frame vertical measurements as well as fitting heights.

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