"...I need to bring my daughter/friend/niece/grandaughter (etc)

**Barry Santini** · 08-15-2006, 07:23 AM

...in to help me choose frames."

What nonsense!

When I'm told this, I reply:

"Bad idea! Let me ask you a question: Do you share the same taste with (Fill-in) about movies, food, TV shows, clothing, music....etc?

(They usually answer "no")

Then why would (their) taste in eyewear, somehow, posess some kind of "fundamental commonality" with your taste?

I go on to tell them that the reason that the public feels so insecure about their eyewear choice is that they do it sooo infrequently. "If you bought just one dress to wear every day for 2-3 years, you'd be just as in-a-pickle about your choice."

"I do this every day, and consider myself a professional. Although my taste may not match/compliment yours, I am an expert about giving you a range of style choices that will be excellent. There is no one "truth" or absolute *perfect* choice...any more than you can say that about clothing"

(Aside)
What I have found out, thought, is what people in these situations underlyingly feel is the reason they need to share this choice with other family members and friends...

THEY BOTH DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR *DOIN'* WHEN IT COMES TO SELECTING EYEWEAR STYLE

Provocative...? Yes!!! But said the *right* way, it let's me remian in charge of this sales selection...and not a layperson whose skill in these matters is regaularly far below mine.

In general, my approach to eyewear style is always to lead a person just beyond their comfort zone...especially in regards to color choice.

The client's you follow me there with their purchase come back & tell me they *truly* enjoy the compliments they get on their eyewear everywhere they go.

In these scenarios, optical satisfaction is a given, and overall satisfaction with eyewear purchased in the bottom line.

Once again, your thoughts, please!

Barry Santini, ABOM

**chip anderson** · 08-15-2006, 07:28 AM

Barry:
I have eaten several frames because the third party didn't give approval. I have never eaten one that the customers "fashion consultant" approved.
I even had one that a man brought back saying his son didn't like them. I had him bring his son, he and the son picked out the "nicest" little Laura Ashley. I let them buy it an smiled.

Chip

**chm2023** · 08-15-2006, 07:49 AM

Does it help to have some rationale that you share with the patient--meaning with your round face we should go with an angular frame or with your olive coloring we should go with a bright color palette? It would seem that having something to back up your recommendations might reassure patients?

That said, and yes this is not nice, take a look at the majority of people you see on the street, at the grocery store, at a play: most people are woefully inept at fashion, period. I believe you are doing a public service!!!:D

**Chris Ryser** · 08-15-2006, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by chip anderson

I have eaten several frames because the third party didn't give approval.

The reigning Canadian Prime Ministers wife, of the late 1980s, went to a Montreal furrier to choose a fur coat. She could not make up her mind on which one to take. So the furrier offered her to take 5 coats home and get her husbands opinion. She was very happy with the offer and left with the coats.

Six month later the furrier still tried to get the coats back, which he eventually did.

Moral of the story is.............when offering a patient to take home some frames to have the family make the final choice, charge all of them on their credit card and make a credit when they bring em back in a specified time span.

**ziggy** · 08-15-2006, 08:36 AM

Almost nothing get my blood boiling any faster... Statements like this show that the public at large have no idea what an optician is or does. They have grown so accustomed to the large chains trend of hiring noneducated, nonexperienced, "frame stylist" that they think that you and I are interchangable with the sales cleark at the local 5/10 store. That rant being stated I tell all of my patients that I'm an educator. My job is to educate them on the frame and lens options that is best for thier individual needs.

**Nettie** · 08-15-2006, 08:38 AM

Last month I spent about 2 hours with one exceptionally picky man. Finally he left without buying. He went to another one of our stores and made his purchase, his wife hated them, so he refunds them at MY store. She proceeds to go over to my frameboards, pick out the EXACT frame I had tried to get him to purchase and say "OOOOHHHHH!!!! THESE would look SOOOOOO good on you darling!!!!"

I had to walk away for a moment. You know......to compose myself.:hammer:

**striker22** · 08-15-2006, 08:39 AM

A contingency approach is necessary. Some are adamant in bringing their loved ones to give their stamp of approval and will turn defensive or go away if you insist on a certain frames. Others may go with your choices and be happy about it especially if they are easy and flexible. The key thing is not to be too pushy and always to give this person a shot at calling that "whoever" to give a second opinion. I find sometimes, when they need to get someone along, it is because there has not been sufficient trust built up between the optician and buyer.

While we may be the experts and usually are right in our recommendations and suggestions, it may help greatly if there is someone, be it a friend or family member that the customer knows and trust, are given a say in the purchasing decision, there is less cognitive dissonance. Sometimes, the buyer may be influenced by you and are sold on that particular pair but when he brings it back home and gets a negative remark, even by someone who knows nothing about glasses, the buyer will not go back to you.

I learnt this the hard way (being labelled as pushy and self-righteous) and also later was reinforced by a top car salesperson. Essentially he told me that involving the buyer's spouse in the buying process leads to the highest chance of satisfaction. I think it works well for anyone in sales.

**Barry Santini** · 08-15-2006, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by chm2023

Does it help to have some rationale that you share with the patient--meaning with your round face we should go with an angular frame or with your olive coloring we should go with a bright color palette? It would seem that having something to back up your recommendations might reassure patients?

That said, and yes this is not nice, take a look at the majority of people you see on the street, at the grocery store, at a play: most people are woefully inept at fashion, period. I believe you are doing a public service!!!:D

All my clients that refer to the ol' *face-shape* saw...I tell them that they should throw this out! It is way too simplistic, and anyway, most people can't classify their face shape any better than their intuition re frame fashion...

I tell them that if they *live-and-die* by eyewear fashion rules...well...then they will be BORED!

I tell them that its knowing how & when to *break* the rules that'll produce the most (unexpectedly) satisfying eyewear choices.

My 2 cents

Barry Santini, ABOM

**Barry Santini** · 08-15-2006, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nettie

Last month I spent about 2 hours with one exceptionally picky man. Finally he left without buying. He went to another one of our stores and made his purchase, his wife hated them, so he refunds them at MY store. She proceeds to go over to my frameboards, pick out the EXACT frame I had tried to get him to purchase and say "OOOOHHHHH!!!! THESE would look SOOOOOO good on you darling!!!!"

I had to walk away for a moment. You know......to compose myself.:hammer:

Yes..here it is clear...the sale was *out-of-control*.

There are lots of sales to be made out there. I've just decided to *weed* out the ones that I can't go along with.

As I have told people in my store...there are many places to buy glasses...

...but their also many people buying them. I no longer try to be all things to all people.

I want the practice and patient base *I* want...and not one that any vision insurance, referring Dr. dependance or unskilled family intervention imposes on me!

Thoughts?

barry

**Cindy K** · 08-15-2006, 09:28 AM

Most folks are unaware that there may be technical issues involved with their frame selection, and what they or their family/friend 'fashion consultant' may choose may not be ideal for their needs. Often, a gal in her 60's will bring along a 35-40ish daughter who has a completely different style sense than mom, and try to fit her up with something modern, trendy, and completely unusable for a +6.00 distance with a +3.00 add and progressives are worn.

I generally ask to see the RX right in the beginning of the process 'just to see what numbers we're working with' and spell out with full explanation if there are restrictions or limitations on frame design due to the RX. At least, that way I'm guiding them in the right direction but allowing the client and friend full latitude in choice within those parameters. I also often mention that I have XX years of experience in frame selection, that I've taken a color analysis course, and that if something won't 'work' for their RX I won't let them have it.

**InspectorQ** · 08-15-2006, 10:18 PM

What's worse is when they spend about an hour to choose a frame, then they come back a few days later to pick them up and they deny choosing that EXACT same frame.

Why in the world would I change the frame you choose for?:angry:

**Excel-Lentes** · 08-16-2006, 03:58 PM

I had an older lady come to try new frames but she thought she should wait a couple of months so she could bring her daughter in (lives in another state) to approve of her choice.

I keep a digital camera at work and took pictures of the customer wearing several different styles. Then she asked me to e-mail them to her daughter. She came back several days later and selected the one we both thought to be very flattering. She was very happy with her glasses.

On the other hand it really stinks when a woman turns to her husband and asks, "How about these, dear?" to which he replies, "Well, you gotta wear'em."

**chip anderson** · 08-16-2006, 05:53 PM

ExCellenties:
In spirit I agree, however I have had your polaroid technique come back and bite me. Remember when Logo had "Exclusives" with serial numbers and lifetime warranties? I had a certian woman come in and tell me she loved the one I had displayes but she wanted a picture to send to some relative for his/her opinion. Some months later she showed up wearing the frame and bragging about how much cheaper her son got it for her in Chicago.
Now, I keep a "Maybe file" in my computer, if a customer comes back and wants us to "remember" that wonderful frame they liked, I can find out what it was no matter how long ago, if I don't have it and it's still made, I can get it, but he model/size/ and color ain't goin to LensCrafters or WallyMart.

Chip

**Excel-Lentes** · 08-17-2006, 08:18 AM

Chip,

Good point. I would never give a model # to a patient nor would I let them write it on a business card or anything. I have stopped people from doing that because I am not going to invest in all this inventory to benefit another optical shop.

I used to work for an optical shop during the week and on Saturdays worked for another one 10 miles away. A man came in on a Friday to "shop around" and wrote down the model of a frame. Saturday he came to shop at the other store; he was shocked when he saw me

.

**Johns** · 08-17-2006, 11:32 AM

Two of our offices have a bar-type counter with 5 barstools around them. (Yes we do serve drinks) We invite people to bring their friends, family, neighbors, and anyone else who has an opinion. Here's what usually happens:

1. The more opinions they have, the more multiple pairs we sell (They don't want to look cheap in front of their friends, and it's the friends telling them to do it.)

2. Very often, the friends end up making appointments and purchasing frames that they saw during one of the "frame parties".

3. People that normally wouldn't be in our store are pulled in by the hand to assist in the selection.

4. If they later have buyer's remorse, they'll buy another pair rather than complain.

We want to make it as fun as possible. We don't do brain surgery in our offices. We're talking about frames here, not IOLs.

PARTY ON!:cheers:

**loncoa** · 08-17-2006, 11:55 AM

I agree. The attitude that all interactions with patients must be "controlled" sticks in my craw, and not just a little. But I guess that I'm willing to take on the multitude of patients that are turned off by arrogance. It's their money, and yes, I will advise them if there is a technical issue with something they are considering.
I love it when whole families come in and we have a great time AND we get the job done and done right. Is it illegal to have fun while doing this? Our 90% retention rate says no. When I mention something about a frame that I don't think fits the bill, the rest of the family almost always agrees, making my job even easier. This type of work can be so much fun and so much more profitable when you don't take yourself overly seriously. I don't mean laxity on the technical side. But technical excellence can sit side by side with an enjoyable and memorable frame selection experience. In fact it should be mandatory.
These days, if you want to break out of the mold of an "appliance" which "must be worn, and only if you want to see" and move into the way more lucrative and fun area of glasses which embody and enhance the patient's personality, that they love to put on every day, that make them wish they had more pairs which were equally cool, and STILL give them excellent vision, then the troupe of "fashion consultants" is not only allowable, but nearly a necessity.
This type of experience breeds a satisfaction with the product which is unparalelled.

**Audiyoda** · 08-17-2006, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Johns

Two of our offices have a bar-type counter with 5 barstools around them. (Yes we do serve drinks) We invite people to bring their friends, family, neighbors, and anyone else who has an opinion. Here's what usually happens:

1. The more opinions they have, the more multiple pairs we sell (They don't want to look cheap in front of their friends, and it's the friends telling them to do it.)

2. Very often, the friends end up making appointments and purchasing frames that they saw during one of the "frame parties".

3. People that normally wouldn't be in our store are pulled in by the hand to assist in the selection.

4. If they later have buyer's remorse, they'll buy another pair rather than complain.

We want to make it as fun as possible. We don't do brain surgery in our offices. We're talking about frames here, not IOLs.

PARTY ON!:cheers:

I love this - that's 100% dead on what our profession should be about - helping people see better, networking with those people to increase business, making everyone feel more comfortable doing something they may not want to do.

**Dave Nelson** · 08-17-2006, 12:18 PM

I once took a few frames over to my wife's office for her to look at, and found myself surrounded by women trying on frames. We finally started a "take it home" program. Good customers are sometimes unable to decide between two frames, so we offer to let them take them home, often for the weekend. They can model them for friends,co-workers, and just spend time to make their descision easier. Often they come back with a clear winner, and they make their commitment to new frames with more confidence. It also means we don't have to wait for an endless parade of family members to make it into our office to give their approval/disapproval.

**Andrew Weiss** · 08-17-2006, 04:38 PM

The wife/husband/whomever is going to see the patient a lot more than I will. I let people bring in whomever they want, and in fact I encourage it. Like many of the posters here, I've never had a patient return a pair of glasses that their family/friends helped them select, whereas I have had patients return glasses that they saw here and loved because "my family hates them." Doesn't happen much, but it does happen.

Fashion and taste are subjective. I have a good visual sense but my taste may be different than my patients' or their family/friends, and they're the folks they have to live with. That's ok with me. And if the family/friends decide they like us and our selection of eyewear, and come to us for their glasses, so much the better :cheers:

**harry888** · 08-20-2006, 08:59 PM

"Your husband/spouse is the one that has to look at you, maybe you should bring him in".

This works for the indecisive customer who is concerned about family.

Harry

**Lady Nicole** · 08-21-2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by harry888

"Your husband/spouse is the one that has to look at you...".

I hate that phrase

**loncoa** · 08-21-2006, 02:33 PM

Check the one at the bottom of all your posts...

**mike.elmes** · 08-21-2006, 03:13 PM

Now there's a novel approach...
Get them feeling GOOD by serving them drinks...a shooter bar, excellent idea!:cheers:

Originally Posted by Johns

Two of our offices have a bar-type counter with 5 barstools around them. (Yes we do serve drinks) We invite people to bring their friends, family, neighbors, and anyone else who has an opinion. Here's what usually happens:

1. The more opinions they have, the more multiple pairs we sell (They don't want to look cheap in front of their friends, and it's the friends telling them to do it.)

2. Very often, the friends end up making appointments and purchasing frames that they saw during one of the "frame parties".

3. People that normally wouldn't be in our store are pulled in by the hand to assist in the selection.

4. If they later have buyer's remorse, they'll buy another pair rather than complain.

We want to make it as fun as possible. We don't do brain surgery in our offices. We're talking about frames here, not IOLs.

PARTY ON!:cheers:

**Nettie** · 08-21-2006, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Nelson

I once took a few frames over to my wife's office for her to look at, and found myself surrounded by women trying on frames. We finally started a "take it home" program. Good customers are sometimes unable to decide between two frames, so we offer to let them take them home, often for the weekend. They can model them for friends,co-workers, and just spend time to make their descision easier. Often they come back with a clear winner, and they make their commitment to new frames with more confidence. It also means we don't have to wait for an endless parade of family members to make it into our office to give their approval/disapproval.

I think that's a great idea, but what if they never bring them back? Do they leave some sort of deposit?

**Cindy K** · 08-21-2006, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nettie

I think that's a great idea, but what if they never bring them back? Do they leave some sort of deposit?

I'll answer on Dave's behalf, he's on holidays. (And we work together).

Usually the folks we offer this benefit to are good customers who we have a relationship with. Simply put, they have our trust and in many years of offering this service we have never been stiffed on a frame, though some need a reminder call if they don't return by their stated date (usually within 3 working days). We generally don't offer this to just anybody off the street, though I have on occasion when the person is a referral from one of our good customers. In that case we certainly do take a credit card draft and are perfectly clear that should they fail to return with our goods the full charges will be applied to their credit card. Never had to do it, though.