Variable Near Inset

**Samuel Jong** · 12-08-2006, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bobie

Once again , no better no pay. These what we do in Thailand.

Once again , in Thailand , no place to hide for any PALs.

Once again, no better no pay, buy if better buy one get two.
These what we do in my country.
Once again, in my country, no place for Rodenstock.

**Bobie** · 12-08-2006, 11:59 PM

OPTIDONN ,
My background is retailer optik shop and I am the second generation.
Our shop not sell SV or Bi-focal for presbyopes more than 7 years , because we only fit PALs or Occupational PALs only.
My experience is over ten thousand of PALs and many thousand of them is Panamic , and the all reject rate lower than 0.1%
The dispensing optician and O.D. have to listen what the PALs company and lens manufaterer say , more than they listen to us. We are in the front line with the wearer and try to inform them what happen , but most of them not pay attention to our comment. They only protect their product.

It is very stupid to switching from hard design PALs to soft design PALs in same level of technology PALs.

But the realy good PALs must be can switch from any design of PALs and must be total better. If not it mean that PALs not good enough.
The PALs that good enough must have good dynamic vision + panoramic vision + comfort of vision + instant adaptation + instant crystal clear vision at any distance , and The PALs like this must be individual free from Atoric / Apheric PALs only.

We focus on design of PALs because the wearer will happy or not with in few second , but the A/R is take few months to know it is good or bad.
In Thailand we have 18 months guaranteed for A/R quality and the best material that never have problem of A/R in almost 2 years is 1.6/42 MR-20 ABBE 42. :D

Jong , Rodenstock PALs is not for every country and not every PALs of Rodenstock can pass our test.

The Rodenstock PALs that can pass our test at below ;

Impression ILT : Individual Free Form Atoric / Aspheric / Progressive Back Surface
Impression ILT Sport : Individual PALs for warp frame ( FFA up to 25 degree )
Impression ILT Hyperop : Individual PALs for SPH. + 13.00D ADD 3.00D

The Rodenstock OPALs that can pass our test at below ;

Nexyma 40 : for 40 cm main used up to 80 cm
Nexyma 80 : for 80 cm main used close to 40 cm
Impression 40 : Individual Free Form of Nexyma 40
Impression 80 : Individual Free Form of Nexyma 80

The Individual PALs is not easy to fit correct. It need a lot of training by professional. The wrong fitting will kick this PALs to be a junk PALs and the perfect fitting will make this PALs like super PALs = instant adaptation ( Just only blink the eyes three time and adaptation is complete ).

Once again , The individual PALs is for professional fitting only. :finger:
( Tell me if you would like to see how to fit Individual PALs ) :D

**OPTIDONN** · 12-09-2006, 12:31 AM

It is very stupid to switching from hard design PALs to soft design PALs in same level of technology PALs.

There were patient adaption issues with Pentax Perfas, Physio 360 and Shamir Autograph. Each of these patients had previously worn VIP. They were not kept in the same level of technology. It's not that any of these other lenses were no good it's just that they did not meet the patients expectations nor did they meet thier needs. Much of it was that they had become accustomed to VIP's design.

You complain that these companies are 'hiding' the 'truth' from you but you base your information from thier marketing material. Studying and trying to understand how these lenses differ and who can benefit the most from certain designs is admirable. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are trying to accomplish and how you are accomplishing it.

**Bobie** · 12-09-2006, 02:09 AM

OPTIDONN ,
The best PALs must be make the wearer happy no matter what design they get used to it , and Impression ILT is the one.

The dispensing optician and O.D. arond the world need some PALs that total better than every PALs even the price is very high. The dream PALs of dispensing optician is expensive but good.

When the wearer pay more and get total better = very happy ending.
When the wearer pay more and get worst = sad ending.
When the wearer pay less and get better = happy ending.
When the wearer pay less and get worst = exceptable to get what you pay.

Yes , some of my informations are from PALs marketing material , but most of them is confidential that you can not find in public website and many of dispensing optician can not get from PALs company.

Our conclusions are base on the wearer. In case that , Hoya said , Hoyalux iD is the best PALs in the world. We listen to them but we not believe. We just test on the wearers to proof the truth.
Our question to Hoya is if the wearer like another PALs more than Hoyalux iD , can we send your iD back and not pay anythings. The answer from Hoya is no and absolutely not.

We don't care what the PALs company said , we care only when the wearer don't like , what the PALs pay responsibility ,that all we need to know.

Without all of dispensing optician , the PALs manufacturer will have no income.
Without the PALs manufacturer , the dispensing optician not have PALs to fit.
Why we not listen to each other ?
Why the PALs manufacturer not pay attention to dispensing optician who always stand in the front line.
What happen if the PALs manufacturer only protect their product and not pay attention to the comment of dispensing optician? :finger:

Once again , We are in the retailer PALs business who love the PALs manufacturer who pay attention to us. If not , we will never buy any PALs from them.

Many time when we find out the problem in their PALs , some PALs manufacturer only protect their product and blame us to ohter optik shop like look at APC optik shop group , our PALs is very good but they don't know how to fit it right. :bbg:
In this case we leave them to other optik shop and O.D. who know how fit it right , because our club are too stupid to fit their PALs right , that fine. :bbg: ( After we do what they said and still have the same problem )

One joking story to tell all , many time when our member have the problem with some PALs and we call the rep to ask for solution. They said , oh we sell more than 30,000 pair in Thailand and never have any problem , you are only the one who have problem. But , when we check to other member , we find have more than 50 case of the same problem in 3 months.
Why we have to trust them anymore? :angry:

**Samuel Jong** · 12-09-2006, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Bobie

OPTIDONN ,
My background is retailer optik shop and I am the second generation.

When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country?

**Bobie** · 12-09-2006, 04:16 AM

Jong , how many PALs that you ever fit by yourself ?
How many design of PALs that you ever seen the whitepaper how it design?
How many contour plot of PALs that you ever seen?
How many PALs that you ever try by your self?
How many wearer that you ever ask them how they feel on difference PALs?

You ask me many question , yes I answer your question.
Now ,can you answer my question?

When your company establisehd? Are you the only Lens Laboratory in your country?
How do you feel when I ask you this question?
Do you feel good.

No matter you answer my question or not , no matter how do you feel , I will answer your question.

When our retailer optical established , we have more than thousnad of optical shop in my country who believe what you say.

This clear enough , Jong. :D

**Samuel Jong** · 12-09-2006, 05:09 AM

Bobie,

When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country?

**Bobie** · 12-09-2006, 07:16 AM

Jong ,
I have been already answer your question!

It is no matter , if you can not answer my question!
Why should you ask the question for more than one time ?
How many time that I have to answer the same question? :D

Please , try to keep your eye open and learning from each others. :finger:
Or just believe what your company inform you.

**Samuel Jong** · 12-09-2006, 10:02 AM

Bobie,

When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country?

**Bobie** · 12-09-2006, 10:54 AM

Good bye , Samuel Jong :finger:
You are not good enough to discuss with me or even with my student.
Learn more from your company in Indonesia and come back again , Samuel Jong. :finger:

**OPTIDONN** · 12-09-2006, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Bobie

Good bye , Samuel Jong :finger:
You are not good enough to discuss with me or even with my student.
Learn more from your company in Indonesia and come back again , Samuel Jong. :finger:

Just curious did you answer Samuel Jong's question about how long you have been in business? I couldn't find you answer.

**Bobie** · 12-09-2006, 12:11 PM

1. Our retailer shop established on 1960.

2. I am the second generation of retailer optical shop.

3. I start to work when I am 15 years old in my family shop until 2005.

4. I just start to fitting PALs only 10 years , but lucky me that I am only one man who stand for PALs or OPALs or nothing for presbyopes. In our shop , no SV / no Bi-focal for the presbyopes , but PALs or OPALs or nothing. These why I can fitting PALs more than 10,000 pair in 10 years by myself and the reject rated less than 0.1 %.

5. In 2000 , I set up the Varilux Panamic Specialist Shop and fitting many of Panamic only in one shop and I dare to say that I know about Panamic more than Essilor know and this shop is still open and 99% of PALs is still Panamic.

OPTIDONN , I am a man who dare to stand in the front line and answer every question , not hit other people and run to hide in the dark like someone, that not me. :D

I answer Samuel Jong 's question in the way what he ask and I have been answer his question already on 12-09-2006, 05:16 PM
" When our retailer optical established , we have more than thousnad of optical shop in my country who believe what you say. "

Because , Samuel Jong aks me on 12-09-2006, 04:46 PM " When is your retailer optical established? Are you the only optical shop in your country? "

What about if I ask same stupid question to Samuel Jong like " When is your lenscompany established? Are you the only lens company in your country? "
How Samuel Jong will answer my question ? Let we see.

**Samuel Jong** · 12-09-2006, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bobie

Our retailer shop established on 1960.

Hi Bobie,

My answer to you, our first retail shop established on 1929. Good bye.

**Samuel Jong** · 12-09-2006, 04:43 PM

OPTIDONN,

I had been visiting your lens manufacture sometime ago in my country. They are doing the marketing very aggressive, and I always attend the seminars held by Polycore. A nice talk and discussion with them as well.:cheers:

**OPTIDONN** · 12-09-2006, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Samuel Jong

OPTIDONN,

I had been visiting your lens manufacture sometime ago in my country. They are doing the marketing very aggressive, and I always attend the seminars held by Polycore. A nice talk and discussion with them as well.:cheers:

Glad to hear it!:)

**HarryChiling** · 12-09-2006, 05:57 PM

no longer playing in this sand box

**Bobie** · 12-09-2006, 07:49 PM

HarryChiling ,
How do you measure the parameter of the frame to order Impression ILT ? :D

**HarryChiling** · 12-09-2006, 08:14 PM

no longer playing in this sand box

**AWTECH** · 12-09-2006, 11:38 PM

Harry and Bobie----STOP

To be fair you need to measure a lens in each brand made to the same Rx for the same frame and patient. Then if you want to look at lens maps, take an actual lens in the same Rx for each and map it.

Trying to compare one Rx with a different Rx with a different design is like guessing which car is the best and going to win the INDY 500. To know the answer to this you come back the day after the race read the facts and you have the answer. Before the race it is my practice time was faster than yours.

All of us hear in English speaking countries should be very careful as not to interpet what Bobie says as being anything but trying in a non-native language to express his opinion. I admire his willingness to share with others his experiences. In the US we don't hear much about Rodenstock since they no longer market hear.

**Bobie** · 12-10-2006, 12:17 AM

Thank you for your interesting picture , HarryChiling
, and thanky you for your comment , AWTECH.

I agree with AWTECH that , we have to compare in the same Rx.
I would to ask your experience that what happen when have some error on fee form PALs.

I ask this question because we ever have a lot of problem from some free form PALs in the first lunch and send them back to the lab. The lab remade new one in the same design and the problem is gone , but after 3 months all free form PALs from this lab never have same problem again.

I think when the free form PALs have some error it will be terrible than the error on semi-finished PALs. :D

**HarryChiling** · 12-10-2006, 10:51 AM

no longer playing in this sand box

**harry a saake** · 12-10-2006, 09:19 PM

I think we need to get JERRY HUANG to moderate this thread:bbg:

**Robert Martellaro** · 12-11-2006, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Darryl Meister

many wearers will experience an improvement in vision when getting a new progressive lens design, of whatever type (at least, assuming it performs reasonably well), simply because their prescription has been updated.

Good point. And even if there was no change in Rx there's still visual improvement due to pristine lens surfaces and possibly a more refined optical position, making it difficult to judge the clients response to different lens designs. My solution has been to make different PAL designs in identical frames in my own Rx, eliminating most variables except the design of the lens.

I knew there were going to be some advantages of getting older- it looks like being a presbyopic optician is one of them.:)

Regards,