Profits – How much is too much?

[spartus]

I don't understand why any able bodied person with a half sound mind should need help from anyone finding a job or from working.

Diverting very slightly off the main topic, I'd amend that question a bit--why should any able-bodied person with a half-sound mind not be able to make a decent living working a single job an acceptable (40ish) number of hours a week? National minimum wage is $5.15. 40 hours at that rate is $206.00. Figuring that...12% (6.2% SSI, 5.8% Fed/State/Local taxes) is taken out of the check, that's a take-home weekly check of $181.28, or roughly $725.00 a month.

Can you reasonably expect someone to live in any acceptable manner on pay like that? Of course not.

Anyway. As far the original post, I object to rbaker's use of the word "force". That's like saying rich people are "forced" to make a lot of money. Roads aren't free, the fire department doesn't run on fairy dust, and wars certainly don't come cheap. If we had anything approaching a rational society when it came to public financing and taxation, rather than the anti-tax jihad the right wing's been engaged in for the last generation-plus, perhaps attitudes would be different. Of course, only half of their strategy has been anti-tax, the other half has been "the government screws everything up", which completes Average Joe's opposition: "They're taking my money away from me and just wasting it on junk! $600 toilet seats!" And so on.

Yes, the government does screw a tremendous amount of things up, but in my more cynical moments I almost think it's by design, in order to keep making the anti-tax movement keep going. It also does things amazingly right--the military, by and large, is a pretty impressive outfit, though the $2.3 trillion they can't account for is kind of a negative. The Interstate system, for those of you who've taken any long road trips, is a pretty effective network of roads.

What the system--any system, really--needs is accountability. The voters are the ones who, in a democracy, should provide that check, but since I'm quite sure a majority of Americans could more readily tell you what Angelina Jolie is up to this week than they could name their Congressman/woman, or even one of their Senators, I'm not hopeful that'll work. The public's disengaged and convinced they're all corrupt, even while non-corrupt people might be available as an alternative. A large majority, I'm sure, vote R or D, based on factors that they may or may not have thought about in any depth and the machine rolls on.

Sooo...taxes. Yeah.

P.S. This is interesting.

[rep]

As for your unsupported but incorrigible belief that the poor are cheating the rest of us, I give up.

of Chips position regarding the poor - then you should give up.

Katrina Investigation

The two audits found that up to 900,000 of the 2.5 million applicants who received aid under FEMA’s emergency cash assistance program — which included the $2,000 debit cards given to evacuees — were based on duplicate or invalid Social Security numbers, or false addresses and names.

The audits included these findings:

• The $2,000 debit cards issued to hurricane evacuees for emergency supplies were often used for purchases unrelated to disaster aid, including: adult entertainment, gambling, a $450 tattoo, a .45-caliber handgun for $1,300 and a diamond engagement ring for $1,100.
  There was little or no verification of the names, addresses or Social Security numbers of applicants registering by phone or the Internet for the $2,000 in aid, resulting in thousands of checks issued to those with duplicate or bogus information.
• Duplicate payments were made to about 5,000 of the nearly 11,000 debit card recipients who received Katrina aid, first with debit cards and then again via electronic bank transfer.

But there is hope - today I caught this from N. O.

NEW ORLEANS -- Public housing residents who were displaced by Hurricane Katrina are not welcome to return to the city unless they are willing to work, three members of the New Orleans City Council have said.

At a meeting of the council's housing committee on Monday, City Council President Oliver Thomas said that for too long government programs and agencies have "pampered" rather than improved lives.

Consequently, former residents who don't want "to roll up their sleeves" are better off staying away, he said.

"We don't need soap opera watchers right now," Thomas said. "We're going to target the people who are going to work. It's not that I'm fed up, but that at some point there has to be a whole new level of motivation, and people have got to stop blaming the government for something they ought to do."

When he finished, Councilwomen Jacquelyn Brechtel Clarkson and Renee Gill Pratt said they backed Thomas' position. Clarkson said preference in public housing should be given to occupants who verify an intention to work.

The remarks were confined to permanent public housing and had no bearing on efforts to get thousands of displaced residents into trailers scattered about the city, officials said.

Several public housing complexes were flooded during Hurricane Katrina, and no decision has been made on whether all will reopen.

But those that gradually are accepting residents again, such as the Iberville complex, are instituting a series of steps to regulate who can return, said Nadine Jarmon, the appointed chief of the Housing Authority of New Orleans, which has been under federal control for several years because of chronic management problems.

"Sometimes you have to not do what's politically correct, you have to do what's right," Jarmon said.

___

Information from: The Times-Picayune, http://www.timespicayune.com


It seems even those in N. O. have found out that their old democratically run local and state governments were not working and are looking for better alternatives. The era of big government may becoming to and end because it just is not working anywhere.

Rep

[Judy Canty]

It seems even those in N. O. have found out that their old democratically run local and state governments were not working and are looking for better alternatives. The era of big government may becoming to and end because it just is not working anywhere.

Rep

Did you mean Democratic or democratic? It's just that I thought we still lived in a democracy.

[spartus]

It seems even those in N. O. have found out that their old democratically run local and state governments were not working and are looking for better alternatives. The era of big government may becoming to and end because it just is not working anywhere.

Wow. Think for yourself much?

(And all I started out doing was Googling to find a source for rep [and Rush] quoting Bill Clinton.)

[rep]

Wow. Think for yourself much?

(And all I started out doing was Googling to find a source for rep [and Rush] quoting Bill Clinton.)

For instance your "analysis" on minimum wage is bogus . No one making minimum wage pays federal or state taxes other than FICA.

As usual, you are fast and loose with the facts and treat them as trivial when you are stating your "opinions" as fact.

Shanbaum posted Chip's position was "unsuported". Not so in this case. Multiple national news reports on the audit were much more detailed than the one I chose.

It still does not change the facts that the poor, in this particular case, and many others, are cheating the rest of us.

No it's not interesting

In their own words - Your website of choice is Bias

A word about bias



Of course, the task of describing the world would be unmanageable without a filter, and the filter adapted here is that of modern, left-of-center political liberalism informed by Enlightenment values. Interested individuals will then be able to spend more time learning about the issues and making their own educated judgments. It is hoped that by emphasizing description and keeping any bias open and honest, TruthAndPolitics.org will help improve the quality of political discourse, and, by maintaining a course of integrity, gain the respect of thinkers on all sides of any particular debate. Thus, TruthAndPolitics.org is an "index to political knowledge." I created it because of my desire to improve the quality of political debate in the United States. More specifically, I want to increase the circulation of informed liberal viewpoints. I believe "the Left" and the liberal community would benefit if more energy were spent on the twin goals of presenting the merits of liberal/left viewpoints and organizing people to further liberal political ends and less energy on emotional, partisan appeals.

all I had to do was go to the referenced web site and look at their own mission statement - to support the liberal view - At least they were honest.


Rep

[Judy Canty]

Having worked for minimum wage in my lifetime, all the normal tax deductions are taken, but returned when income tax forms are filed. Basically, someone working at or more likely below the poverty level is providing the government with an interest-free loan every pay period. Since there are arguably more low- to middle-income earners in this country than high-income earners, the burden of government appears to ride on their backs.

[rep]

Having worked for minimum wage in my lifetime, all the normal tax deductions are taken, but returned when income tax forms are filed. Basically, someone working at or more likely below the poverty level is providing the government with an interest-free loan every pay period. Since there are arguably more low- to middle-income earners in this country than high-income earners, the burden of government appears to ride on their backs.

Which most of the poor have learned NEVER to do, so that they receive the maximum paycheck. Many claim on their employment enrollment for dependents they do not even have.

Sorry you chose to do otherwise.

Rep

[Judy Canty]

I'm sorry? You're sorry I chose to work? What would the Opti-world have been without me?

[shanbaum]

Rep, were you to actually read the GAO report (which you can find here: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/se...raud&Abuse.pdf) you might realize that while it's yet another compelling and sweeping indictment of the incompetence of the Bush administration, it says absolutely nothing about the poor. Perhaps you were confusing "the poor" with "the victims (real and fraudulent) of Hurricane Katrina".

[Spexvet]

I'm generally to the left of center, but consider this:

If we took a town somewhere in "middle America" (or anywhere else for that matter), and gave every head of household 1 million dollars on next Monday, by Tuesday there would be rich people and poor people.

Redistributing the wealth isn't a perfect solution.

I know it's not. But is increasing the MIDDLE CLASS not better than the system we have now?

Spex if they were capable and inclined to do that rich person's job, they wouldn't need taxpayer assistance...

...And if they foolishly choose not to work, that leaves the door open for someone of moderate income to do whatever that rich person stopped doing, and make money for him/herself. So the job gets done, the money is earned, it just doesn't go into the already rich person's pocket! That's a good thing, isn't it?

Those who cannot work will always be given a subsistence standard of living. That's what a civilized society does. I'm talking about making it worthwhile for everybody who can work, to work. If a family makes out better NOT working, they won't work. If they have a minimum wage job that, after paying for housing, food, clothing, healthcare, etc, leaves them with a lower standard of living, what's their incentive to work? If those who have more than enough (whatever "enough" is) give up a little of their excess, so that folks on welfare will be better off getting off of welfare, don't the middle class and those previously on welfare win?

[chm2023]

Shanebaum: We already have charity contributions, we have the lower income people paying no taxes, we have the "rich" paying 90% of all taxes. How much more can be done to make things "fair?" The rich and the productive are not going to bother to do things that accumulate wealth or remain productive it the burden of taxes becomes higher and they get to keep even less of thier hard earned productivity.

And you will note even gleaners had to harvest thier own dole, todays "entitled" don't even want to pick thier free harvest.

Chip

I believe Social Security is imposed on dollar one, so I don't see how "lower income people pay no taxes?"

Other than that, I get your point: poor people have too damned much money.

[rep]

For instance your "analysis" on minimum wage is bogus . No one making minimum wage pays federal or state taxes other than FICA.

Surely you know that. (Federal Insurance Contributions Act) Social Security and Medicare which is 7.65%

Rep

[shanbaum]

Actually, FICA is Social Security, and Medicare is separate. The latter is not capped, while the former is (which is what makes it profoundly regressive).

What's important to understand, however, is that a substantial portion of "Social Security" taxes have been used (about three trillion dollars since 1983) to fund the general expenses of the government.

What that means is that the Reagan "tax cuts" were really "tax shifts" - from high earners (whose rates were cut dramatically) to everyone else (whose rates went up, by increasing FICA rates in the name of "saving social security", and then using the money for general expenses).

[Spexvet]

Rep, were you to actually read the GAO report (which you can find here: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/se...raud&Abuse.pdf) you might realize that while it's yet another compelling and sweeping indictment of the incompetence of the Bush administration, it says absolutely nothing about the poor. Perhaps you were confusing "the poor" with "the victims (real and fraudulent) of Hurricane Katrina".

I noticed that, too. My guess is that those lower on Maslow's hierarchy of needs did not "misuse" the money. When you don't have food, clothing, and shelter, you don't buy a gun or jewelry. "Victim" and "poor" don't mean "stupid".

[chm2023]

Rep, were you to actually read the GAO report (which you can find here: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/se...raud&Abuse.pdf) you might realize that while it's yet another compelling and sweeping indictment of the incompetence of the Bush administration, it says absolutely nothing about the poor. Perhaps you were confusing "the poor" with "the victims (real and fraudulent) of Hurricane Katrina".

And yet, you have to hand it to the Bushies. They have managed to convince the very people they are screwing (everyone except the very rich) that they are on their side. It's sleight of hand stuff--look at how we share your "values" re gay marriage, reproductive rights, flag waving; ignore the fact we have ****** away a huge budget surplus, we put people in charge of FEMA who couldn't find their butts with both hands, we got ourselves entangled in a no-win situation in Iraq, we have no immigration policy, the quality of our medical system continues to erode, we have taken executive privelege beyond the pale and we are shrinking the middle class--we are on your side because we flatter you that you are the real Americans. This is what it all comes down to--everyone needs to feel they are somehow superior to at least some other people. As so eloquently illustrated by this thread, if that's poor folks, well, at least we got that Pa!!!!

The mind boggles.

[spartus]

For instance your "analysis" on minimum wage is bogus . No one making minimum wage pays federal or state taxes other than FICA.

As usual, you are fast and loose with the facts and treat them as trivial when you are stating your "opinions" as fact.

Shanbaum posted Chip's position was "unsuported". Not so in this case. Multiple national news reports on the audit were much more detailed than the one I chose.

It still does not change the facts that the poor, in this particular case, and many others, are cheating the rest of us.

No it's not interesting

In their own words - Your website of choice is Bias

A word about bias



Of course, the task of describing the world would be unmanageable without a filter, and the filter adapted here is that of modern, left-of-center political liberalism informed by Enlightenment values. Interested individuals will then be able to spend more time learning about the issues and making their own educated judgments. It is hoped that by emphasizing description and keeping any bias open and honest, TruthAndPolitics.org will help improve the quality of political discourse, and, by maintaining a course of integrity, gain the respect of thinkers on all sides of any particular debate. Thus, TruthAndPolitics.org is an "index to political knowledge." I created it because of my desire to improve the quality of political debate in the United States. More specifically, I want to increase the circulation of informed liberal viewpoints. I believe "the Left" and the liberal community would benefit if more energy were spent on the twin goals of presenting the merits of liberal/left viewpoints and organizing people to further liberal political ends and less energy on emotional, partisan appeals.

all I had to do was go to the referenced web site and look at their own mission statement - to support the liberal view - At least they were honest.


Rep

See that thing receding in the distance? It's my point, and hoo boy, you missed it.

[For-Life]

Example of profits being too high: A company that had a 15 percent return last year lays off 1000 workers or moves its production overseas to gain an 18 percent return.

But saying that, in most cases profits are kept in control by competition (ie our industry). There are a few strong oligopolies that get around it like Canadian Chartered Banks and large oil companies.

[Spexvet]

I've asked the question before, and have been ignored, gotten a smart-alec answer, or an answer that is just plain wrong (IMHO):

Why is our country better having more very, very rich people and very, very poor people, with a smaller middle class, rather than having a much larger middle class, and fewer very, very rich and very, very poor people??????

See?

[chip anderson]

Spex: It would make me very, very happy to have you donate half your income to some worth cause to alieviate the problem. If all liberals did this perhaps the problem would go away.

It's odd though the leading state on charitable donations per captita per income is poor old impoverished Mississippi.

If you would check the charitable donations of the leading democrats, Hillary, Al Gore, Teddy Kennedy, and the other screamers you will find them to be almost non-existant.
Bleeding hearts bleed for other people to finance thier endevors.

[spartus]

It's odd though the leading state on charitable donations per captita per income is poor old impoverished Mississippi.

I'd like to see a source for this, since a few minutes' Googling turned up squat. Interesting methodology if what you state is the way they spun it: "Per capita per income". I mean, you'd think it was one or the other--average donation per person or average percentage of income donated.

If we can cite stats like that, I'm the highest per capita per household donor in the history of humanity, since I just chucked a penny out the window. Sample timeframe and size: The last five minutes, and me.

And I hardly see Shooter Cheney or Moneybags Bill Frist on this list. The Reagan Library's listed, though. As a recipient.

[shanbaum]

Spartus, strange as it may seem, I think Chip's right.

I mean, it's not so strange that it's true (if you think about it), it's just so strange for Chip to be right...

[spartus]

He may well be, I just wanted to see some figures. Specifically, I wonder if donations to churches, for instance, are included in the numbers they crunched.

[Spexvet]

Spex: It would make me very, very happy to have you donate half your income to some worth cause to alieviate the problem.

I have not that anyone should donate anything to anybody, have I? I will pledge, right now that I will never accept more than $500,000 annual income. If offered more, or if I own a company that generates more, I will take steps to ensure that additional monies go to the working folks of my company that need it more than I will, at that point.

If all liberals did this perhaps the problem would go away.

It's odd though the leading state on charitable donations per captita per income is poor old impoverished Mississippi.

If you would check the charitable donations of the leading democrats, Hillary, Al Gore, Teddy Kennedy, and the other screamers you will find them to be almost non-existant.
Bleeding hearts bleed for other people to finance thier endevors.

So you're saying that bleeding heart liberals don't donate to charities. Hogwash!

If money pigs weren't such gluttons, this problem would go away. So, chip, Why is our country better having more very, very rich people and very, very poor people, with a smaller middle class, rather than having a much larger middle class, and fewer very, very rich and very, very poor people??????

[For-Life]

The problem with a nation that leaves the poor behind is that it also leaves profits behind. When the poor of a nation are better of the businesses tend to do better because of that.

I mean the automobile industry as a whole will do better if everyone house has at least two cars instead of at least one.

[chip anderson]

Spex: What is taxing and "redistributing wealth" other than forced donation?

Why wait until your "company income" is $500, 000? This sounds like a lot of church people I know that put off titheing until "my income is high enough". Of course it is never high enough. If sure if you and all those who claim to be like minded would start contributing half your income (or even half after taxes) reguardless of how low your present income, you could bring complete relief to the improverished of the nation, perhaps the world. Start today, the problem won't go away without immediate help.

Chip