FreeForm lenses and Generators. Any Info?

[RGV Optical Lab]

Hey all. My name is Nate and I have a small Lab in So. Tx. with an optek generator, Lenspro Verifier and some weco edgers. I'm doing about 80 surface jobs a day and about 120 edge jobs, and am at capacity (one shift of eight hours). I was wondering if any of you all have, or know anybody that has the, new Free form Generators availiable out there (SatisLoh, etc.)

I've seen them work at the OLA convention and will probably see a few at The 'Expo West and they blow my mind with their speed and accuracy. I'm also intrested in the companies that are currently "leasing" out their PAL designs (Zeiss & Shamir) to Labs to use with these new generators.

Should I just add more shifts..... or should I invest in these new technologies?

[HarryChiling]

You are talking about quite a bit of investment capital. If you have the money to invest, spend it on coatings. I think you will get a much bette return from the coatings. Once the generators come down in price and the free form lens designs become more common then I would take the risk.

[AWTECH]

This is almost exactly what I sent to him in a private message a few days ago.

For all interested in freeform. It is a new buzz word and equipment manufactures will make it sound easy. It is not as simple and as great as it sounds. I know I am in the freeform lens producing business and spent three years traveling worldwide to gain enough knowledge to properly enter this industry with such a process.

I don't know how you can get into a process of freeform with inhouse AR for less that $1,000,000. And you will still have to purchase your lens designs unless you have the capabilities of writing your own aspheric and PAL lens designs.

The smaller generators seem like they will work but their lower volume and tool usage may make them uncompetitive more quickly than others.

What about the costs of up keep after the warranty period?

Be careful not to go out of business by trying to become more up to date with expensive equipment. Unless a large percentage of your work can only be processed on freeform equipment in a very short amount of time I doubt that this is the right move for your lab.

[HarryChiling]

And you will still have to purchase your lens designs unless you have the capabilities of writing your own aspheric and PAL lens designs.

I am curious what does the generator need in order to make the lenses? What information does the file have? And what royalties or costs are involved in purchasing the rights to the lens design?

[AWTECH]

I am curious what does the generator need in order to make the lenses? What information does the file have? And what royalties or costs are involved in purchasing the rights to the lens design?

The data is typically delivered in x,y,z data points. This can be as simple as a coma seperated text file. The detail is in the thousands of points need to cut a lens that is of optical quality without the need for extensive fining or polishing, since a lap will not work on a complex surface.

Re the royalities or costs involved: This is all new territory, currently the major lens companies produce these designs in there own labs so not much is in the independants hands.

Unfortunately I can not discuss my companies current projects since they have not been released.

[HarryChiling]

How tightly grouped are the data points -or- How far apart are the actual points measured? Can the software use formulas instead of points?

[AWTECH]

The spacing of the data points is very close, depending on the machine software that can create additional points between points. You need to guide the cutting tool within microns of the exact points along the surface so ultimately these points are very close together.

Can the software use formulas instead of points?

What Software? This is the issue. The machine manufacturers sell machines they do not own lens design software and so much of the lens design issues are covered by patents so it becomes very complicated. You can buy a great freeform machine and then find the only way to make a lens legally is to make spherical backside cuts on your lens.

[HarryChiling]

I don't understand how you derive the points to make the cuts without any software. I don't think you would take all the x,y,z co-ordinates and manually enter the data into the generator that would be ridiculous. How would you get the CVS file to the generator? H?ow do you make the CVS file currently?

[AWTECH]

Harry;

The sorry for the misunderstanding. The x,y,z data files for PAL freeform lenses are created by software. This software is what is owned typically by the lens companies, such as Carl Zeiss, Essilor, etc., The software requires the entry of the Rx data and then a programs are designed to produce the surface plot which is output as an x,y,z file. CNC Machining uses similar type of software for cutting various machine surfaces the common machine software programming is referred to as "G Code"

The problem as I have said before is access to the various software for the lens designs that produce the x,y,z data files.

[RGV Optical Lab]

Wow. Seemed to have made a good thread here. I do appreciate the advice, and was wondering which in-house AR machines you all currently use. Are they (the coats) good for a year, or will I have to be recoating in 9 months? How many AR coats do you generally do monthly? What are the margins?

[AWTECH]

Before jumping into AR make sure you understand the process. The actual AR is made of a stack of alternating hi-index and low index materials such as Titanium and Silicon usually evaporated in a vacuum chamber. This part of the AR, (if the stack design is not too thick), will not delaminate. The problems with AR an almost always with the lens processing before the AR chamber sees the lens.

Lens cleaning, lens primer, lens hard coating etc. are the reason you would have to replace the AR, not due to what happens in the chamber.

Spin a typical UV backside hard coat on the lens and wait for the delaminations is what may occur.

On the other hand the high priced major lens company supplied AR with super hydrophobic all use special thermal hard coatings not UV cured coatings.

Can anyone guess why?

Time is up!; To obtain the best Quality and Durability for the AR that is applied on top of these coatings.

[RGV Optical Lab]

I've seen dozens of AR machines... which are the best? Does it matter? Or does it just depend on what materials I use?

[FROMONT CHRISTINE]

Hi,

This subject is very interesting : we have on project for 2007 a new type of generator in free-form and for a budget price of 90 000 euros max. For the moment, we have imagine the prototype and our engineers are working hard on the subject. Could be an opportunity for you to take, we can study and developed it according to your needs.
Kind regards
Christine FROMONT cmv@cmv.net

Hey all. My name is Nate and I have a small Lab in So. Tx. with an optek generator, Lenspro Verifier and some weco edgers. I'm doing about 80 surface jobs a day and about 120 edge jobs, and am at capacity (one shift of eight hours). I was wondering if any of you all have, or know anybody that has the, new Free form Generators availiable out there (SatisLoh, etc.)

I've seen them work at the OLA convention and will probably see a few at The 'Expo West and they blow my mind with their speed and accuracy. I'm also intrested in the companies that are currently "leasing" out their PAL designs (Zeiss & Shamir) to Labs to use with these new generators.

Should I just add more shifts..... or should I invest in these new technologies?

[AWTECH]

For evaporation a box coater is a box coater. The software to operate it is key. The chamber size needs to be large enough to have good evaporation. Some small chambers will not perform as well as larger ones. With a box coater you may want an ion gun, as well as an e-beam gun for effiecient evaporation.

Used equipment that is either re worked or in good shape can also work. Over the years the software to opperate these is much easier to understand and use. As for results, I believe a properly maintained 10 year old or old box coater can give equal quality AR to a brand new AR machine. The main advantage for you buying new or used from a major equipment manufacturer like Satis Loh, would be the service support and training that they can provide to get you up to speed on AR processing.

An alternative is either the Satis SP-200 or the BOC Edwards magnatron sputtering units. This technology can apply the same materials it just used a different technology. Rather than evaporating the materials using AC or DC magnatron technology the material is released from targets with high energy magnatrons operation in a vaccum. This technology allow for small batches with faster turn around time per cycle.

[Jim G]

For RGV. As AWTECH noted, a box coater is a box coater and the key variation will be the training, support and back-up you receive. I know satisfied users from Optivision, in Dallas, Satis and Leibold. Contact all and ask for references for smaller sized users similar to yourself and call them. They all should also be able to provide you with a pro-forma to see if you can really afford their units. That should help you make an informed decision.

Signet/Armorlite has developed a program to market their Kokak CleAR product in cooperation w/ Leibold. I've heard good things about both product and the marketing. They're looking for limited geographic distribution so don't know if it's open in your area but worth a call. I'm aware of a lab doing abouit 120 a day cost justifying this association.

While a fan of the "sputtering" technology noted by AWTECH, the units have had mixed results to date in practice.

Good luck in your quest. AR is real and, at this time, probably a better inverstment than other new technologies.