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Thread: "3 out of 4 of our opticians don't recommend AR coatings"

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    OptiBoardaholic hip chic's Avatar
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    "3 out of 4 of our opticians don't recommend AR coatings"

    Today a customer came in and commented that she was in a competitor's shop yesterday. She said that an employee of the shop told her that "3 out of 4 of our opticians no longer recommend anti-reflective coatings because of care issues". She went on to say that "because anti-reflective coatings were originally sold to help eliminate glare from computer screens and because current computer screens no longer have glare, there really is no reason for anti-reflective coatings and that there is a real trend with eyewear providers to NOT recommend it".

    And I thought....HUH?

    But, I wanted to be open minded...after all I work here in my little shop by myself (though I frequent optiboard...and read trade journals). Anyway, I wanted to see what everyone else had to say.

    And I want to add, that I understand that not ALL people are cut out for AR coatings...the real purpose of this thread is to ask if anyone is sensing this "trend" away from AR coatings.

    Thanks
    hip chic

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    Quote Originally Posted by hip chic
    the real purpose of this thread is to ask if anyone is sensing this "trend" away from AR coatings.
    Of course not! AR is better then ever and getting cheaper by the minute. Maybe they didn't recommend it because they have junky lenses with scratch prone AR. Or, maybe they are just idiots which is much more likely. I never said it was for everybody, but now days it is the rare situation in which it might not be recommended.

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    Optician Extraordinaire
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    AR was NOT orginally sold because of glare from computer screens. We sell a lot of AR. Once one of our patients get it, probably 95% get it again.

    I have had two people this past week that had it before from somewhere else that had problems with it and weren't sure if they wanted to get it again. They had gotten a poor quality AR and I assured them they wouldn't have the same problems(crazing and horrible scratching)with the ARs we sell as long as they take proper care of the lenses.

    I don't think proper care of AR is that diffucult and I always explain it carefully. I always tell people with AR they need to wash their glasses daily.

    I found an old pair of glasses of mine from the early 80's. I can still see out of them as they are a -2.00 and I wear about a -2.50 now. When I put them I there was instantly all sorts of reflections from lights in the room. I never have that with my glasses with AR.

    The shop that doesn't recommend AR must sell a poor quality AR. There is a huge difference in how they hold up over time.

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    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    what a pile of tosh

    AR coatings are up year on year for as long as I can rememeber

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    Not in this free market!

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    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    :drop: 3 out of 4 Opticians who wouldn't recommend AR coatings?? What kind of shop?? I would think that the Opticians were warning their customers about the lousey product they sell. The USA has a ways to go toward increasing overall percentage of consumers wearing the best AR's. A few months ago I was at a covention in Las Vegas and at a local Walmart I was given 2 choices on progressives. Nikon i ICE and Zeiss gradal Top Carat xt....for cheap. It's just a matter of time for consumers to try a great coated lens and be hooked for life.
    Last edited by mike.elmes; 01-28-2006 at 06:42 PM.

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    On the Sunset Tour! Framebender's Avatar
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    We offer it to everyone. . .

    with mixed results. The 2 insurance offices are running at 62% and the 2 discount locations are running 36%. Both are up about 5% over last year (2004 to 2005). Like everything else, its just a matter of education and consistency. The discount locations are a tougher sell simply because of the economics, but we find that some of the people we told about it in 2004 budgeted for it in 2005.

    Most people in our area recommend it.

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    I fit a lot more AR lenses than I used to, now that the scratching problem is pretty much solved.

    Personally I can wear glasses with and without with no big problems, but in my practice I think I've gone from about 10% a couple of years ago to more than 50% AR coated nowadays.

    AR coatings have nothing much to do with computer screens and never really have, except that some people got confused when some CRT screens came out with AR coatings on them (which do help in situations where overhead lights reflect off those big bad monitors).

  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    It is the rare customer to our shops who doesn't have a premium a/r.

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Big Smile Here we go again.........................

    Quote Originally Posted by Judy Canty
    It is the rare customer to our shops who doesn't have a premium a/r.
    Here we go again..................what is a premium AR coating ?..............the one with the largest advertising and the loudest fanfares and the biggest hype ?

    If I would try to sell you a type AR that is far superior to what you are selling presently...............you would not even listen to me because you are all so opinionated that you would not even give an newcomer a chance.

    It has to be admitted that the big guy's have come out with some good products, which does not exclude that there are others that could be even more advanced in design and performance.

  11. #11
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser
    Here we go again..................what is a premium AR coating ?..............the one with the largest advertising and the loudest fanfares and the biggest hype ?

    If I would try to sell you a type AR that is far superior to what you are selling presently...............you would not even listen to me because you are all so opinionated that you would not even give an newcomer a chance.

    It has to be admitted that the big guy's have come out with some good products, which does not exclude that there are others that could be even more advanced in design and performance.
    saying there is no difference between AR's is like saying there is no difference in Emulsion paints. Bottom line - if you buy premium ablative paint - it covers in one coat, if you buy cheap and cheerful paint, you will be there all day

    We have had this topic before, but my dolars worth is this: 2/3 years down the line, one can definatally judge a coating. The inferior ones are poor looking and in bad shape, the better (or premium ones) are in much better shape

    Cost has nothing to do with this, I look at a lens and make a judgement on it. For me, by a long way Nikon coatings have far outpassed any other I have seen. Second place (who Nikon knocked off its previous top spot) goes to Sinclair Optical's "Ultimar" - who in relative terms is a very small player in the coatings market

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    Redhot Jumper Might make the sale in spite of it...................

    Quote Originally Posted by hip chic
    And I want to add, that I understand that not ALL people are cut out for AR coatings...the real purpose of this thread is to ask if anyone is sensing this "trend" away from AR coatings.
    There is no trend of going away from AR coatings which have been a much longer and older institution and part of just about all glasses sold in countries like Germany and Switzerland.

    However when the public has to pay a full $ 100.00 additional above the price for the lenses and the frames, at times when the economy is screaching to a slow down, people loose their jobs and interest rates are on the way up which will make housing and living more expensive, ...............it is understandable that some opticians do not push a sale that creates another burden on the buyer who then might go to an optician that will profit from the greed of the ones that do not understand the times we are in.

    With all the good news of the past few days.............GM fighting off bancrupty, letting go 30,000 workers over the next few years........similar case with Ford and Chrysler-Mercedes. This will create a ripple effect into the auto parts supply industry will have to lay off about 200,00 workers over the same period of time.

    In today's paper a report say's that 60-70% of car users on this continent are driving cars up to 250,000 miles compared to 100,000 miles a few years ago.

    On this forum I hear continously that one should only sell the most expensive, the best, and highest priced variation that is offered on the market.

    "Framebender", on another thread, stated this week that he purchased non brand AR coated stock lenses at a fraction of the normal going price, offered by most companies. This means that he can still go and offer these lenses when economic times are getting harder, when others that have their mind set on the "so called top ranking products", can not sell them any more, and will loose customers.

    You can actually price yourself out of the market if you have been around for a while, and have a reputation for only selling the latest high class items, and that applies everywere, the prospective customer who does not want to spend a fortune right now, will not even consider going to your business.

    Therefore the opticians that do not mention the $ 100.00 AR coating, are the smart ones, because if they happen to mention it on the side while selling a pair of glasses might make that additional sale in spite of it.

  13. #13
    Paper Shuffler GOS_Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hip chic
    Today a customer came in and commented that she was in a competitor's shop yesterday. She said that an employee of the shop told her that "3 out of 4 of our opticians no longer recommend anti-reflective coatings because of care issues". She went on to say that "because anti-reflective coatings were originally sold to help eliminate glare from computer screens and because current computer screens no longer have glare, there really is no reason for anti-reflective coatings and that there is a real trend with eyewear providers to NOT recommend it".

    And I thought....HUH?
    OMG ~ I can't believe what I read in your post !!

    About 15 years ago, while still a newbie to the industry (but NOT a newbie to wearing glasses FYI: I have a 4.50 cyl)

    I wasn't working on computers at all back then. I decided to TRY a/r lenses to see what it was like. I feel like my life changed and that I started seeing so much more clearly than I ever had before. Truly, I feel like my life changed. :o Night driving was certainly so much better but the way I saw everything was incredible.

    A couple of years after that, I tried to get a new pair done (in an hour)without the a/r coating, just with the ever-lovely graident purple tint I was (previously) so fond of ... ACK !!! I tried driving on the freeway and it was awful how the headlights were "being mean" to me :p . I remade them with the a/r and haven't looked back since then. Personally, A/R rocks my visual world.

    I think that other office is wacked :hammer:

  14. #14
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    What needs to happen, Hip, is inclusion of the A/R in the base retail cost to the consumer.

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    On the Sunset Tour! Framebender's Avatar
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    Question Recommend or Offer??

    We let our patients hold it in their hands. We have 3 lenses that we ask them to handle. One is a sample of Super Hi Vision, one is our warranted AR and one is our non warranted AR. We encourage them to put their fingers all over them and then clean them with a spray bottle and a cotton towel. This allows them to see for themselves what the differences are and whether its worth the extra money to them. I encourage our dispensers to offer rather than recommend these products and services.

    The problem I've run into in the past is that if an Optician recommends something they tend to take it more personally if the patient declines their recommendation. The attitude of well I'm the professional and I'm telling you you need it. If you don't get it well then the consequences are not my fault. Anybody else heard this either from an employee or a co worker?? For some reason if a patient declines an offer dispensers seem to take it less personally and my customers are handled better. I try to make sure everyone who works with us understands the difference. Alot of our patients have already been beaten up at other places they've shopped. Its important to me that they never get treated like that in our stores.

    Now back to the AR's. We charge $150.00 for a super coat, $100.00 for a warranted AR and $50.00 for a non warranted AR. If they are single vision, stock range, I encourage dispensers to comp them a non warranted AR if they believe it is going to make a difference to the patient. I believe that if I can get them in an AR coated lens once then they won't want to have glasses without it. By doing this we've gone from 7% AR sales in 2002 to 36% in 2005.

    I understand that nobody wants to sell junk or product that's going to create problems for ourselves. Do you folks honestly believe that there aren't good less expensive coats out there??!? I spent a year buying stock Crizals looking for an alternative. Out of the 3 different one I looked at only one was really junk. Of the remaining 2 both held up as well as the Crizal we'd been using. We put these puppys in the freezer, we left them on the dashboards of our cars. I encouraged all dispensers to participate in this because they had to be able to see too. I'm telling you they're out there, but as long as people in my area keep telling people, "You don't want the hi index lenses with the good AR? Well, I can still get the fat ones with the glare." I'll keep making money.

  16. #16
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    AR is not sold (at least in the US market), because many eye care practitioners simply never mention it to the ophthalmic consumer. Of course there are those among you who do present AR to your customers/patients (you're the ones who are selling it, since an independent survey by Jobson demonstrated that 60% of eyewear consumers who were told of AR, its benefits, and its cost, had a desire to purchase).

    Unfortunately, the average private care practitioner does not mention AR- which would explain the fact that only about 11-13% of lenses dispensed by the private practices across America have AR on them. Of course, the total % in the US market is about 20.6% (it actually slid a couple 0.1% points this year), but this larger number is due to the fact that retailers- like WalMart and Costco are dispensing over 60-70% of their lenses with AR.

    As mentioned earlier in the thread, AR must be appreciated by the average consumer- since 95%+ of them choose to purchase it again and again after receiving it for the first time.

    If all this sounds like whinging (Brit for whining)- it is. Every time I speak to private care providers, there is at least one ECP in the crowd who admits to having frustration that s/he is "flat for the year." Usually, when I inquire as to AR sales, the answer is either "I don't really know" or "I think we sell our fair share." Do yourself a favor.

    Have a look at your "waiting to be delivered" pile. What % of the lenses have AR on them? If its less than 60% there are patients who are leaving your office every day who WANT AR on their lenses but don't receive it because you never mention it to them. One day, these folks may wander into your friendly neighborhood retailer- who will be happy to inform them about and sell them AR. They will experience greater comfort with their vision, and their undeniable perception (right or wrong) will be "I received a better product at the retailer."
    As for quality of AR, the range is so vast it is patently silly to claim the only difference is advertising. The difference comes down to the hardcoat layer, how it is applied, and how well matched to the AR stack it is. A dip coated hardcoat that is integrated to the AR stack will be far more durable than an AR applied over factory hardcoat (or a spin-coated lens). Durability is the #1 issue consumers have with lenses.

    On top of that (pun intended) is the top coat. The #2 consumer issue is cleanability. That same top coat that makes edging the lens more challenging is the same feature that makes the lens far easier to keep clean for the consumer. In the latest Crizal offering (Crizal Alize with ClearGuard), there is also an inherent layer which builds a charge on the lens which will repel dust and debris from the lens each time it is cleaned (you will probably see the demo given by your Essilor Brand Consultant sooner or later).

    Long story short- I don't really care which AR you recommend. Essilor makes several which are excellent- other manufacturers make some excellent coatings as well. For the good of your patients- and your practices- however, RECOMMEND the product. Bundle it with your lens packages. Wear it, and demonstrate its benefits. You don't have to force your patients to buy anything, all you have to do is point out a product which will make their vision and appearance better during the life of their Rx. 95% of them will purchase the product next time they return to you- which pretty much speaks for itself.

    Rant over- my apologies for the length,
    Pete
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

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    With all being said previously about the economy, I'm surprised that no one pointed out a simple fact. A poor economy does NOT effect the buying habits of people that have money to spend. It does effect people that are marginally making it in a normal economy. Can you tell the difference by looking at that person when they enter your store? I thought not...we all have been to seminars about pre judging the customer. Offering the best you have first (basic "top down" selling 101) is still the best way to ensure a healthy business.

  18. #18
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicko
    A poor economy does NOT effect the buying habits of people that have money to spend. It does effect people that are marginally making it in a normal economy.
    In today's newpapers I read that in the USA people presently spend all their income and even have to get into their savings or use credit cards to survive.

    It will NOT affect the wealthy older people that have made and accumulated their resources. They will continue to buy whatever they want. However they are not the majority.

    The majority is already now on a short leash...............which will get even shorter within a forseable period of time, and they will shy away from higly priced items and look for better deals.

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    OptiBoard Professional dbracer's Avatar
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    Chris Ryser

    Dang, Chris, most of your posts sound a lot like whining.

    Here I'll make this plenty big, but feel free to make it bigger.

    And add a splash of color if you want.

    Yup. The world is going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket!

    dbracer
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    Master OptiBoarder Cindy K's Avatar
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    Hip -- the short answer to your question is: not a chance is there a trend away from AR.

    AR was NOT put on lenses to reduce glare from computer screens (think about it- a computer screen, whether its the 'glare free' kind or the old fashioned kind, is a light source and AR coatings are designed to reduce the reflections on the lens surfaces). If anything could have been done years back to reduce the glare from the old fashioned monitors, would it not have made sense to use a polarized lens to reduce the reflection from the screen surface? No AR coating will reduce the glare from the old screens.

    My 2 cents.

  21. #21
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    Actually in outside and inside bright lighting situations AR coating should increase glare from the wears side at least. 7% (not 8 as claimed, nothing transmitts 100% except a vacuum) more light you know. Less glare from the lens itself but more from outside sources.

    Chip

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Redhot Jumper USA Optical still in wild west mode.....................

    Quote Originally Posted by dbracer View Post
    Dang, Chris, most of your posts sound a lot like whining.
    Here I'll make this plenty big, but feel free to make it bigger.
    And add a splash of color if you want.
    Yup. The world is going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket!

    dbracer

    dbracer,..............
    01-28-2006, 03:45 PM is ihe date this thread was started. you sound like a grave robber from the past.

    This sounds like beating the ghost from yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy K
    Hip -- the short answer to your question is: not a chance is there a trend away from AR
    As only about 22% - 24% of all lenses sold have AR on them therefore it is actually not even a trend yet, much less even than progressuve lenses that have not vene yet reached 50%.

    Compared to Europaen Countries the US Optics is still in a wild west mode.:o

  23. #23
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    And when you look at that percentage, the whole "3 out of 4 opticians don't reccomend" comment seems to be true, maybe not for the reasons that patient mentioned, but there's a problem somewhere. In our office, we're floating at about 80% AR at the moment. It's not a sell. It's a demonstration. Show the patient what it does, and chances are, they're going to get it. We sell our standard AR at $100 and our "premium" at $130. I think we're a bit high compared to other places in Canada, but I just don't understand how there can be such a huge difference between the two.

  24. #24
    Bad address email on file cash1's Avatar
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    time& money

    i love a.r. i do try to explain the good things it does. the biggest prob i have with it is it takes too long to get,about 10 working days, and the cost! people around here,small town tennesse, people dont wanna pay! $80.00 is what i charge for ar.

  25. #25
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    So far no ones mentioned any contraindications to AR. For instance working in an enviornment with chemicals, or dust. How about patients who are rough on glasses, children.

    I am an optician that personally doesn't wear AR, tried it even the newer ones don't like it. I offer transitions, tints, material upgrades before I offer the AR. There is no doubt that my AR sales would increase if I was to offer in the reverse order, but I don't like the stuff.
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