"3 out of 4 of our opticians don't recommend AR coatings"

[Andrew Weiss]

It's like anything else, Harry -- a good optician will offer the patient a product that (s)he thinks the patient needs. And you're a good optician (much better than good, really), so that's what you do.

And it's also true that what we think a patient needs is driven by two things (at least): one is our understanding of the benefits and limitations of the particular product, and how that intersects with the patient's lifestyle; and the second is whether we, ourselves, see a real value in the product. I'm sure more of my patients get AR than yours do for one reason: I wear it and love it. But I sure wouldn't recommend it to a woodworker, stonemason, rough-housing kid, etc.

[HarryChiling]

It's like anything else, Harry -- a good optician will offer the patient a product that (s)he thinks the patient needs. And you're a good optician (much better than good, really), so that's what you do.

And it's also true that what we think a patient needs is driven by two things (at least): one is our understanding of the benefits and limitations of the particular product, and how that intersects with the patient's lifestyle; and the second is whether we, ourselves, see a real value in the product. I'm sure more of my patients get AR than yours do for one reason: I wear it and love it. But I sure wouldn't recommend it to a woodworker, stonemason, rough-housing kid, etc.

Well put.

[AdmiralKnight]

There's quite a few people I wouldn't recomend AR to. Mechanics, people in high dust invironments etc. That doesn't mean I don't tell everyone about it though. Just because that woodworker is only getting one pair for now, the fact that you explained exactly what it does without putting a bias on it either way might make him realize "Hey, when I'm home, I knowtice I have a heck of a time on my computer!" and he might very well come in for a recreational pair. It's always been my opinion that it's not our jobs to tell people what they need, but to inform them of all the options and let them make up their own minds.

[Crickett13]

Some interesting things being said in this thread so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in on the "AR is too expensive for my patients" debate.

1 thing I am hearing is my patients wont pay what I charge so I do not sell much AR. lets assume you buy AR for X and sell it for Y and are selling it to 10% of your patients. That means for every 100 patients you made Z in profit on materials.

First you need to make sure that your dispensers are really correct in assuming that is why it is not selling so you need to hear what their presentation is for selling AR. Is the doctor talking to the patient about the benefits? Is the real reason it is not selling because you are not telling evry patient about the benefits as well as the drawbacks? If your people explain that the glasses need more care then mechanics won't buy it for their work glasses. Perhaps the real reason is because when the dispenser sells it and talks about the price he or she does it in an apolgetic manner. All of these things and more come into play. I have gone into many offices and spoken to many dispensers and probably 8 out of 10 will try the presentations we give them for a week and when they don't have an immediate increase in sales they fall back into their old habits.

Sell more for less profit for and make more money

Next is the I don't like it so I don't reccomend it. This is a slippery slope because so much of our industry is based on the trust developed between a dispenser and patient/customer. The fact is that sometimes you can sell more of a product if you had a negative experience with it. You more than anyone understand what people do not like about AR. Use that knowlege to give the patient a fair and balanced presentation of the product. Of course you know what people, like me, who love A/R. Talk to them and understand why they love it. Now you are armed with all of the information you need.

As an example for years I did not like progressive lenses. I tried them while I still did not have a real constant need for a bifocal and hated them. That gave me an opportunity to tell my patients that it was OK if they did not end up liking them because somebody has to be in that 1-2% that would not adapt. The very fact that I could tell them about my own experience increased my sales and did not increase my non adapts. Why? Because the patient now trusted that I was giving them all the information about the product and not just some song and dance that was programed into my memory by the marketing monkey.

Like I said this is my 2 cents and is probably worth about a penny but right now I am hearing a lot of excuses from my own retail staff about why they don't sell more so this is good practice for me.:D

And remember if you don't tell them about it then they will belive all those comercials that talk about their "exclusive products".

[Happylady]

I am an optician that personally doesn't wear AR, tried it even the newer ones don't like it. I offer transitions, tints, material upgrades before I offer the AR. There is no doubt that my AR sales would increase if I was to offer in the reverse order, but I don't like the stuff.

What do you not like about it? Do you not notice any difference in your vision? Do you find them hard to clean?

I think for some people like me, the difference in our vision with and without AR is amazing. I was always bothered by reflections, well before AR was available. I also like how it looks.

Now, one of the Doctors I work for never had AR on her eyeglasses until about 6 months ago. When I talk to her about it, she tells me that she really doesn't notice any difference.

I can't really understand it, but I have heard it occasionally from others. Harry, you might fall into this group. But just because it doesn't make a difference to YOU doesn't mean it doesn't to others. I personally don't like Transition lenses. I tried them and didn't care for them. But I still mention them to every patient and explain the pluses and minuses of them.

[optical24/7]

Now back on subject, I've read that a lot of you don't recommend AR to the "rough" crowd. That's the crowd that can use it the most! With a 1-2 year unlimited warrenty, and nothing harder in coatings than a TD2 type, why not offer it to them? We're at over 90 % AR here, only the good stuff or as JohnS likes to call it, "premium Jack Crap coatings".

:bbg::bbg:

[Crickett13]

crickett, your math is off.:bbg:

Now back on subject, I've read that a lot of you don't recommend AR to the "rough" crowd. That's the crowd that can use it the most! With a 1-2 year unlimited warrenty, and nothing harder in coatings than a TD2 type, why not offer it to them? We're at over 90 % AR here, only the good stuff or as JohnS likes to call it, "premium Jack Crap coatings".

:bbg::bbg:

price removed

[renee1111]

Here we go again……..What is a premium AR coating??

There is a huge difference between a premium coating and a cheap AR, The process for starters is very different. The newest method of applying AR coating is called “ion assist deposition.” This process creates a dense compacting of molecules and gives a strong coating with good adhesion. After the AR compounds are applied, a hydrophobic coating is added. The purpose of this layer is to reduce the adhesion of grease and water. Without it over the AR “stack”, fingerprints and water spots are a real problem. The microscopic texture of an AR coating allows grease from fingerprints to stick to it and makes it more difficult to clean than an untreated AR-coated lens. If a drop of water is allowed to dry on an AR coated lens without a hydrophobic coating, minerals in the water will adhere to the surface of the AR coat and may be impossible to remove. The hydrophobic coating repels water and fingerprints, which makes the lenses easy to keep clean. Even some cheap ARs have a hydrophobic coat, but is painted on and will wipe off over time.

However, when the public has to pay a full $100.00 additional above the prices of the lenses and the frames, at times when the economy is screaching to a slow down, people lose there jobs and interest rates are on there way up which will make housing and living more expensive

So are you going to offer them a cheap AR with a limited warranty that starts to craze only after 1 year?? How happy will your customer be then? They’ll be coming back to you wanting a replacement, and you’ll have to tell them that “you get what you pay for.” Yes premium coatings are more expensive but, they are worth every penny. And you can’t just take people out of using AR if they are previous wearers, because they will hate the added reflections, and will have to replace those lenses anyway.

[optical24/7]

Sorry crickett, I missed your 10% of 100 therory!!!

[dbracer]

dbracer,..............
01-28-2006, 03:45 PM is ihe date this thread was started. you sound like a grave robber from the past.

This sounds like beating the ghost from yesterday.



As only about 22% - 24% of all lenses sold have AR on them therefore it is actually not even a trend yet, much less even than progressuve lenses that have not vene yet reached 50%.

Compared to Europaen Countries the US Optics is still in a wild west mode.:o

More whining.

If it's not the money its the timing.


dbracer

[dbracer]

Actually in outside and inside bright lighting situations AR coating should increase glare from the wears side at least. 7% (not 8 as claimed, nothing transmitts 100% except a vacuum) more light you know. Less glare from the lens itself but more from outside sources.

Chip

Chip,

Not a bad point, but it depends on how you define "glare," which is a very intangible term.

dbracer

[dbracer]

AR's reduce reflections, not glare, and only internal lens reflections, not viewed surface reflection. AR's reduce glare only if you define glare in terms of internal lens reflection.

Good AR's reduce over 90% of the intensity of Purkinje (i.e. catoptric) images. The little bugers made me hate glasses. I won't have a pair without AR, but that's not everyone. Whether or not anyone else sells AR is of no concern to me.

The new AR's also make the lens so hydrophobic, anti-olaeic and static-free that they can be washed with a good emulsifying soap and shaken dry virtually no wiping is needed, and the lenses actually stay cleaner.

Catoptrics are what I discuss with and demonstrate to my patients. That is the way I sell AR, and I sell about 56%.

If you don't like it, don't sell it. When you do sell it, sell it honestly. What else matters? What's all the hub-bub about?

dbracer

[HarryChiling]

What do you not like about it? Do you not notice any difference in your vision? Do you find them hard to clean?

I think for some people like me, the difference in our vision with and without AR is amazing. I was always bothered by reflections, well before AR was available. I also like how it looks.

Now, one of the Doctors I work for never had AR on her eyeglasses until about 6 months ago. When I talk to her about it, she tells me that she really doesn't notice any difference.

I can't really understand it, but I have heard it occasionally from others. Harry, you might fall into this group. But just because it doesn't make a difference to YOU doesn't mean it doesn't to others. I personally don't like Transition lenses. I tried them and didn't care for them. But I still mention them to every patient and explain the pluses and minuses of them.

I ca't tell the difference in vision and matter of fact anyone that has seen the glasses I wear on a regular bassis thinks I am crazy. I wear a transitions poly with a flash mirror. Hows that for transmission. I like having a slight tint even at night. I feel the reduced transmission helps with computers more than the increase in transmission. I also am not a put everything on my glasses that can possibly go on them. I work with a few people that do this. Transitions, AR, premium materials (the 1.74 in a -3.00), it's unnecesary. Guess which of my numbers would blow everyone elses away. That's right 2nd pair sales, everyone in the office is trying their hardest to get the most options on the first pair and if you look at the increase in cost compared to the increase in sale you notice that every additional option added to glasses brings your margin down. I have the advantage of working in the lab in my office and ordering all the products so I can tell you what's more profitable lens wise and have all the costs floating around my head. For a computer pair why not offer a primary pair and then sell a second pair of intermediate lenses and add a slight tint which most peole find more usefull than an AR. And the margin is way better than one pair that's trying to do it all.

I also find that I have more trust from the patinet as most can and will be sold on whatever you offer, but their comes a point when they start to question the use of some of the offerings. Often when the sale is split into two pairs the value is easier to see. I do very well in my office and if you were to split my sales and COGs from every one elses I like to refer to mine as a souped up ferrari.

No one here is really selling these premium branded AR's the major manufacturer is selling them.

Sorry to drop names, but:

You say Teflon AR the patient immediately thinks of the benefits of Teflon on their pots and pans and some of the sales made are directly influenced by the name alone so I don't buy it that the optician sold it.

Crizal, they are dropping boatloads of money placing ads for their coating in everything print and television you look at. Patients often walk in asking for it.

Even photochromics how many people here offer photochromics over transitions (no they are not the same thing). Transitions is a brand yet many opticians offer it like it is an option.

The costs for some of these prodcuts are bloated with advertisign and licensing costs. When I do sell better coatings i sell the house stuff. I have found that Synergy is a decent hyro coated AR and at a great cost. I have heard stainless performed better in COLTS testing than most of the other branded AR's yet I don't see a big rush to sell stainless.

Not to mention our office has an in store lab and when someone orders a product that hasto be coated (without stock AR) the COGs sometimes triples. So although it makes money their are other options I offer first in order to maximize the profit.

[Refractingoptician.com]

i love a.r. i do try to explain the good things it does. the biggest prob i have with it is it takes too long to get,about 10 working days, and the cost! people around here,small town tennesse, people dont wanna pay! $80.00 is what i charge for ar.

Don't matter whether yer in tennercccc or whatever . People will buy it if you give them the choice and demonstrate it properly . You don't sell it ... you demonstrate it's advantages and let the people decide for themselves . You do your demos right and raise yer price to where it oughta be and people will ask you to put it on every pair .

By the way , how's yer polaroid sales ?? anyone buy that in tenerccc ?

How's yer Digital, free form lens sales ?

[Chris Ryser]

I am an optician that personally doesn't wear AR, tried it even the newer ones don't like it. I offer transitions, tints, material upgrades before I offer the AR. There is no doubt that my AR sales would increase if I was to offer in the reverse order, but I don't like the stuff.

Harry, This is the first time since i have been hanging around the Optiboard (6 years) that one of our active and knowledgeable co members has made such an outright and honest statement.statement.

AR coatings do have certain advantages for certain reasons.............but sales in general are probably motivated by easy profit and large corporation advertising, as well as warranties given.

Manufacturers warranties will replace damaged products which cost money and labor cost. Actually you are overpaying the original purchase as the redo warranty has to be build into the original sales price,

[HarryChiling]

Harry, This is the first time since i have been hanging around the Optiboard (6 years) that one of our active and knowledgeable co members has made such an outright and honest statement.statement.

AR coatings do have certain advantages for certain reasons.............but sales in general are probably motivated by easy profit and large corporation advertising, as well as warranties given.

Manufacturers warranties will replace damaged products which cost money and labor cost. Actually you are overpaying the original purchase as the redo warranty has to be build into the original sales price,

And I am motivated by profit as well. The coating increases our turn around time which is a negative, and their are other more profitable options that I could offer to help with some of the issues AR helps to resolve, plus I have to pay more for a decent coating.

The eveil monkey that no one has mentioned is the fact that since the introduction to market of these hydro coated AR's the quality on the regular stuff has been stepped on. So some of the wow you are getting is the fact that the previously used products quality seems to be worst.

[chip anderson]

Harry:
I did mention that glare in bright light from the wearer's side would be increased from every source except the lenses.
I'm with you Harry I don't like the stuff but do recommend it in some applications like TV announcers, public speakers, preachers, Choir directors, stuff like that.

Chip

[EyeSeeYou]

Personally, I think A/R coatings [in particular, my favorite is the Crizal Alize, even though it has been heavily advertised and many people, including myself, are inculculated into believing Alize is the savior for all eyeglass wearers everywhere - lol] are invaluable to consumers who are exposed to flourescent light on a daily basis from sitting near a computer screen all day. A/R coatings are also wonderful in reducing the amount of glare and the "halo" effect from oncoming headlights at night. In addition, for those with strong perscriptions, the A/R coating, combined with a high index material to compress the lens magnification/thickness, makes it appear as if there are no lenses in the actual eyeglass frame. Hence, A/R serves its purpose for the cosmetic effect for many people, *especially* those with a fairly high perscription. A/R coatings help to reduce the "coke-bottle" effect for those with a strong amount of myopia and the "bug-eye" effect for those with a high amount of hyperopia, OR, for people who have a good deal of astigmatism in their lenses, the A/R helps reduce the look of thickness in their lenses. The shortcomings inherent in any variation of A/R coatings? Of course, there are cleaning issues, as the women pointed out, but that can remedied easily once you learn how to properly care for your A/R treated lenses. If you care for your A/R treated lenses with an appropriately laundered eyeglass cloth, and reduce the amount of times you clean your A/R lenses with tissue, then your results will be enhanced when looking through a lens that has the A/R coating applied to it. IMVHO the benefits of A/R outweight the flaws. Then again, perhaps I have been far too indoctrinated into the cult of A/R wearers to believe any other kind of propaganda out there :-O lol ;)

[EyeSeeYou]

So far no ones mentioned any contraindications to AR. For instance working in an enviornment with chemicals, or dust. How about patients who are rough on glasses, children.

I am an optician that personally doesn't wear AR, tried it even the newer ones don't like it. I offer transitions, tints, material upgrades before I offer the AR. There is no doubt that my AR sales would increase if I was to offer in the reverse order, but I don't like the stuff.

People will always be complaining; that is the primordial nature of the beast in this business. I have found consumers who complained about how their transitions did not get "dark enough" or were not working "sufficiently" enough. Of course you have to explain to the consumer that transitions will not work in the car, because the glass of the windshield blocks out the ultraviolet rays of the sun, that the darkness of the lens is dependent on variables such as temperature, the amount of UV rays present, and the weather in general. I've heard many people say that they had transitions about 8 years ago, and that the lens remained dark for a good 10-15 minutes after they stepped inside. People even say no to the transitions when their insurance (usually VSP) will cover it! In general, I have found that consumers complain about transitions as much as they complain about A/R coatings that they were not satisfied with. In addition, tints can be tricky because customers opinions on what is "dark" enough or "light" enough can be very subjective, so those too can be modified several times. Lastly, thinner & lighter, impact-resistant materials such as polycarbonate can pose problems for some customers whose eyes are more sensitive to subtle changes in the light. People have complained about the "rainbow effect" of polycarbonate lenses and how the poly material seems to warp, or bend, the light around them, making them dizzy.

There will ALWAYS be complaints! :hammer::hammer::hammer:You just have to learn to live with it :cheers:

[chip anderson]

I'm not defending AR here but I think a lot of the crazing expecially on higher index materials is the scratch coat beneath the AR. Both seem to fail in too short a period of time. I can remember when I could almost count on 160 and 166 could be counted on to craze at 11 months by the clock. If you were lucky it wouldn't craze for 13 months (1 month longer than the warranty). This was on non-AR coated product.


Chip

[HarryChiling]

A/R coatings are also wonderful in reducing the amount of glare and the "halo" effect from oncoming headlights at night.

That seems more anecdotal than fact if you ask me. Most of the images that are rpesented to patients that show this effect are doctored or "Dramatized". I could see if the lens allowed more light to pass through the pupils would slightly contrict eliminateing more of the aberrations due to aperature size, but I haven't seen any real evidence that shows a significant improvement or any improvement at all.

I shoud make a frame that sprays a miotic in the patients eyes at night reduceing the spherical aberration, that ought to do the trick. Wait a minute then the frame would have to prescribed by an OD or OMD. :hammer:

[For-Life]

I don't know. I had one pair of glasses made in a rush without AR. I did not think there would be a problem, and it drove me crazy.

[ADO]

So far no ones mentioned any contraindications to AR. For instance working in an enviornment with chemicals, or dust. How about patients who are rough on glasses, children.

I am an optician that personally doesn't wear AR, tried it even the newer ones don't like it. I offer transitions, tints, material upgrades before I offer the AR. There is no doubt that my AR sales would increase if I was to offer in the reverse order, but I don't like the stuff.

Harry,

Not picking an argument, but is it about what you like or what your patient wants?
I managed 5 locations that sold around 70% AR. Our patients loved what it did for them. Plus it separates you from the 3 out of 4.

[HarryChiling]

Harry,

Not picking an argument, but is it about what you like or what your patient wants?
I managed 5 locations that sold around 70% AR. Our patients loved what it did for them. Plus it separates you from the 3 out of 4.

I am an optician that personally doesn't wear AR, tried it even the newer ones don't like it. I offer transitions, tints, material upgrades before I offer the AR. There is no doubt that my AR sales would increase if I was to offer in the reverse order, but I don't like the stuff.

I would say I'm about 60-70% AR on average. Again though I don't like the stuff overpriced and overated IMO. I still offer it, but I offer other options before I offer AR, which I can atribute to higher numbers in other areas than I can in AR. I mentioned before that my average patient tops out at about two options. Here are my first three options offered:

1. Material (depending on power anywhere from poly to 1.67 great for appearance of the lens)
2. Transitions (healthier option for their lenses blocks out HEV and UV light)
3. Tint (reduces transmission dulling out glare and gives the lenses a nice appearance if matching or contrasting the frame choice or other facial features)

AR comes next on the list, it is the most useless coating in my opinion. It increases transmission (NOT REDUCES GLARE). Some of the issues i have with AR:

• You can see the dirt on your lenses more clearly (often times this drives people nuts)
• Scratches easier (than a lens without AR coating)
• Risidual Color (very few complaints, but every now and again I still get these)
• Cost (as an option it is the least profitable in our store compared to other options)
• Turnaround (takes the control of time out of my hands)

I have had a few patients that I have made a pair of -18.00 progressives for and I can make them in house in a day, yes in a day which they are blown away by, but if they get AR it could take up to three weeks if it can be done i the first place. (labs l;ike to moan and groan about the high Rx's) Untill AR fits my business model I can't justify offering it first especially when the benefits overlap with other more profitable options.

[For-Life]

Harry, I am surprised that you offer Higher Indexes over AR. In my opinion a -4.00 with AR in CR-39 looks much better and thinner than the same RX without AR in Poly or 1.6. It may not look thinner from the sides, but definitely from the front.

As for dirt on the lenses, use Alize, Super Hi, Carat Advantage. I find that AR scratches less (if you use a quality AR) versus non-AR lenses. Residual colour? Much better than the horrible white, coke bottle glare. Again, some of the cheap AR's have ugly residual colour. You are correct about cost and turn around time.

I do want to point out something extremely important here. This is not directed to Harry (because I do not know what you sell), but everyone. When we cheap out on AR coatings and use a less expensive brand, this is where we get the complaints about residual colour (tree green), ease of clean, and scratches. Charge the slight difference more and really give your patients quality.

More proof that not all ARs are the same.