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Thread: Are foam lap accurate cut by SGX generator.

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    Are foam lap accurate cut by SGX generator.

    Sometimes when foam laps are used, cutted on the SGX, the curve of the lap is off. I has been wondering if the SGX is as precise as it should be.

    Since a foam lap can not be measured with the sagometer i decided to cut the lens and the lap in the SGX (same curve) , fine the lens using this foam lap (in the cylinder machine) and measure the sag of the concave curve of the lens. If the lap is right, the lens should have the sag that Innovations print in the ticket if the option (Setting Navigator - Method - Standard - Workticket -"Print lens back curve sags on summary page") is marked.

    In my case, most of the time the lap foam is wrong. I have not tried plastic laps yet but i suspect that they would also come wrong because i think the problem is with the SGX and not the lap material.

    We have that problem no matter if the cutter is new or used or if we have just calibrated the SGX or not. (White disc).

    I would really appreciate if someone that has a SGX try this to see if he has the same results. Try low curve (under 3.00) that is where i has seen a greater problem. In my case the lap may be off curve up to 0.12. The problem seems to be worst in the base curve than in the cross curve of the lap.

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    Nixg nixg's Avatar
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    coorect the power

    Hi ,

    I am also using sgx generator. Generally i use foam tools for lens above 4 cyl
    When i have to use it i increase cyl power by 0.5 cyl then i am getting actual cyl which i want.And i increase spherical value by -0.12 in minus power.

    Suppose my rx is -050-450cyl then Give power to innovation like-0.62-500
    then it works for me.

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    It is good to know that i am not the only one. I has been told by Gerber Coburn salesman that it is a very rare case and that some people has a SGX only for cutting laps.
    In my case, i has found that the error while cutting foam laps in the SGX, is not constant. The error is smaller when high curves are cutted. I use to cut foam laps for high index lenses where a error in curvature in the lap is moe important that in Cr-39.

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gola
    Sometimes when foam laps are used, cutted on the SGX, the curve of the lap is off. I has been wondering if the SGX is as precise as it should be.

    Since a foam lap can not be measured with the sagometer i decided to cut the lens and the lap in the SGX (same curve) , fine the lens using this foam lap (in the cylinder machine) and measure the sag of the concave curve of the lens. If the lap is right, the lens should have the sag that Innovations print in the ticket if the option (Setting Navigator - Method - Standard - Workticket -"Print lens back curve sags on summary page") is marked.

    In my case, most of the time the lap foam is wrong. I have not tried plastic laps yet but i suspect that they would also come wrong because i think the problem is with the SGX and not the lap material.

    We have that problem no matter if the cutter is new or used or if we have just calibrated the SGX or not. (White disc).

    I would really appreciate if someone that has a SGX try this to see if he has the same results. Try low curve (under 3.00) that is where i has seen a greater problem. In my case the lap may be off curve up to 0.12. The problem seems to be worst in the base curve than in the cross curve of the lap.

    Thanks in advance
    You're right that it's difficult to measure foam laps. But it's not correct to deduce that the lap is cut wrong because the lens comes out wrong. You didn't say how you're blocking; depending on that (for instance, if your using old-fashioned aluminum blocks and alloy), your measurement of the back of the lens may depend on whether your measuring it on or off the block). In any case, to successfully use foam laps demands a great deal of care in fining and polishing.

    First and foremost, the pressure at the pins must be minimal, no more than 12 PSI. Stroke, especially on the finer, should be relatively short (how short depends on the particular machine - some are more adjustable than others). Experience tells me (which means, I don't have a technical justification for saying this) that the polisher's stroke must be as large as or larger than the finer's. Blocking pins on the machines (if that's what you're using) must be sharp, and centers on your blocks must not be worn.

    If a given lens curve is correct, one way to validate (or perhaps I should say, "invalidate") the lap curve is to fine the lens for a very short period of time - no more than 10 seconds - and then look at the lens surface. If material appears to be removed only at the edge of the lens, the lap is too flat; only at the center, too steep. If material is removed evenly across the surface, the lap may be OK, or you may have crushed it to conform to the shape of the lens by using excessive pressure. While that might seem at first blush to be a good thing (since the lap then conforms to the lens), the lap will, however, continue to deform. Traditional cylinder machines don't work perfectly in terms of producing equal forces all over lens surfaces, and those unequal forces will tend to deform the lap. So the trick to using foam laps can be described as finding a balance between those forces (which are exacerbated by the factors I mentioned above), the ability of the lap to hold its shape against them, and holding the lens and lap together securely in the machine during processing.

    Having said all that - you didn't say whether your lens curves come out steep or flat, and you are reporting a substantial error. Your problem could be something else entirely.

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    OptiBoard Apprentice Trevor D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanbaum
    orn.

    If material is removed evenly across the surface, the lap may be OK, or you may have crushed it to conform to the shape of the lens by using excessive pressure. While that might seem at first blush to be a good thing (since the lap then conforms to the lens), the lap will, however, continue to deform. Traditional cylinder machines don't work perfectly in terms of producing equal forces all over lens surfaces, and those unequal forces will tend to deform the lap.
    You could always scribble with a pencil over the lens surface, put a few drops of water on the fining pad and just use hand pressure to run the lens over the lap. You will see where it is wearing first and you won't deform the lap.

    You could also get some of the old style templates, place them on the lap surface and look for air gaps.

    Trev :cheers:

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    Old Optician to New OD Aarlan's Avatar
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    Or just buy a used Lap Cutter and make them out of aluminum... . Those were great... and they would pack a wallop if you got too close when that arm was swinging... Anybody still use those? or are we cutting all of them on the Generators now?

    I found that the foam laps seemed to work substantially better when you dropped the psi like shanbaum said.


    AA

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    We block the lenses with a Gerber Coburn eclipse that works with wax. But also have the old alloy blocker. the problem of foam laps off curve is seen is with both blocking methods.
    I made this experiment today. Block a CR-39 lens with a large block and alloyd. In the SGX i left the lens 7mm thick and made a foam lap for it. Both lens and lap are cut in the SGX. i set the curves to be 1.87/3.00. I used small pressure in the coburn 505 cilinder machine. The stroke are at its minimal. I fine the lens 1 minute in the foam lap and meassure it with the sagometer. the concave curvature of the lens was 1.90/3.03.
    Regularly i make foam laps for curves under 3.00 because my laps where used for glass many years and the curvature is not correct in most of them. Because of this problem, we cut the foam lap twice. The second cut is to correct the error of the first.
    I will have to buy a new stock of aluminum laps soon for curves under 3.00 and this will solve the problem

    I am going to do the same experiment with a platic lap to see what happend. I haven´t done it because the SGX is very busy this days.
    I will let you know the results.

    thanks for your help.

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    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gola
    I will have to buy a new stock of aluminum laps soon for curves under 3.00 and this will solve the problem
    Buy a good used lap cutter and make your own laps.

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    Today i had the time to cut on the SGX foam lap and plastic ones.
    The foam laps on curves higher than 7.00 are ok but under that they keep needing need a compensation that is variable. Under 3.00 the compensation may be up to 0.12. They come out too strong in the base curve.
    If i want a 1.75 i have to cut 1.60 to get the 1.75. This error mostly on the base curve. The cilinder curve may go of no more than .03 weak.
    To my surprise, the 3 plastic lap cuted in curves around 3.00 came perfect on the base and cross curves.
    I only had 6 plastic laps left so i can not experiment with diferent curve. I just ordered more.
    Is good idea to fill the holes in my inventory of laps with plastic ones?

    Thank to all of those that reply in this treat. Your comments has helped me a
    lot.

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    This is a old threat where i was reporting that SGX was cutting lap foams strong on low base curve and weak on high base curves. Cross curve was not accurate but acceptable. This has happend since we bought it and has done a few hundred of foam laps.

    Today i cut 5 foam laps as PLAP1 which is the way i cut plastic laps. I did not use the same parametes (thichness) as i ususally use for plastic labs but the important thing is that the foam laps came very close to the curves i wanted.

    I notice that SGX cuts foam laps in one pass and fast. Plastic laps are cut in a few pass and the last one is slow.

    So the foam might not be the problem but the way it is cut.
    Maybe this last pass is the one missing in the way SGX cuts foam laps.

    Does anyone knows how to set SGX to add a slow final pass to foam laps option?

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    Bad address email on file jherman's Avatar
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    I can't remember

    Does the 505 have a single or double wobble plate assembly?

    If memory serves, the 505 was a good machine for base nd cross curve generating.

    You might want to buy a hight tech finer for foam laps.
    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Herman
    Does the 505 have a single or double wobble plate assembly?

    If memory serves, the 505 was a good machine for base nd cross curve generating.

    You might want to buy a hight tech finer for foam laps.
    James
    I use Coburn 506 finers/smoothers and have given up on foam laps.
    I agree with the above poster that for high curves they are fine but on flatter curves we seem to lose about 0.12D of cyl.

    What is it that the higher tech finers do that provide better results? Our finers have had the wobble assy's replaced with ball and socket types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rsandr
    I agree with the above poster that for high curves they are fine but on flatter curves we seem to lose about 0.12D of cyl.
    I am convinced that the cylinder machine in not the problem. The problem is that the foam laps are not cut correctly.
    rsandr: You have a problem similar that mine. Could you please try to cut a foam lap as plastic lap and as foam lap with the same curves and compare results? If in you generator you have the same results as i had,(acceptable curves) when cut as plastic lap then this would prove that the generators setting for foam laps are not apropiate.

    I has seem that the generator always does a final slow pass on lenses and plastic laps but on foam laps it is cutted fast. Maybe even one pass but slow will solve the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gola
    I am convinced that the cylinder machine in not the problem. The problem is that the foam laps are not cut correctly.
    rsandr: You have a problem similar that mine. Could you please try to cut a foam lap as plastic lap and as foam lap with the same curves and compare results? If in you generator you have the same results as i had,(acceptable curves) when cut as plastic lap then this would prove that the generators setting for foam laps are not apropiate.

    I has seem that the generator always does a final slow pass on lenses and plastic laps but on foam laps it is cutted fast. Maybe even one pass but slow will solve the problem.
    When I cut hard plastic laps the results are consistently fantastic.

    I will have a go tomorrow cutting a foam lap with the same settings as a hard lap, currently the foam are cut in one pass.

    When sagged (according to the engineer, he had a special foil, we cant sag them because the pins dig in) the foam laps are good. There was much debate about alloy temp/finer settings but because the results differ so much between foam/hard I have dismissed them as crud.

    I have yet to hear from anyone who is pro foam lap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rsandr
    When I cut hard plastic laps the results are consistently fantastic.
    I will have a go tomorrow cutting a foam lap with the same settings as a hard lap, currently the foam are cut in one pass..
    .
    Please let me know what you find. Remember that some parameters like thickness of the lap are different. What i did was to use large parameters and the reduce them until the foam lap was complitly cuted.
    Quote Originally Posted by rsandr
    When sagged (according to the engineer, he had a special foil, we cant sag them because the pins dig in).
    .
    What i do is to sag the lens that has been worked with the foam lap. After first fine.
    Cut both laps asplastic lap (foam and plastic) with the same curvature.
    Then run first fine of a test lenses on each lap. One for a plastic lap and another for the foam lap. Then sag both lenses. This way you are comparing apples with apples.

    I will be waiting for the result.

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    I just tryed to cut a few high curves foam laps(over 10.00) as PLAP1 on my SGX and found that i needed to compensate each curve in order to have an acurate foam lap.

    this is not important in low curves that is what i was doing up to now. I am wondering if there is a setting on SGX that makes it compensate the PLAP1 automatically so i do not have to do it as i do while cutting laps on my old Shuron lap cutter.

    At least now i am having good results with foam laps and am using them again.

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gola
    I just tryed to cut a few high curves foam laps(over 10.00) as PLAP1 on my SGX and found that i needed to compensate each curve in order to have an acurate foam lap.

    this is not important in low curves that is what i was doing up to now. I am wondering if there is a setting on SGX that makes it compensate the PLAP1 automatically so i do not have to do it as i do while cutting laps on my old Shuron lap cutter.

    At least now i am having good results with foam laps and am using them again.
    With what are you measuring the foam laps? How are you "compensating" - are you simply changing the curve? If so, by how much?

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    I am measuring the concave curve of the lens that has first fine with the foam lap.

    We has talk about this in this post and there was the idea that the pressure in the cylinder machine could be the cause. I has placed it on 12 pound for finishing and polishing. 5 minute polishing now on 505 and 506. This did not solved.

    I am compensating for pad thickness the curves (doing the calculation) as i where to cut it on my old Shuron lap cutter. I have a small excell program for that manually.

    In my SGX if cut as PLAP1 the generator dos not compensate for pad thicness. If i cut high curves compensated for pad thickness then the foam laps are correct. I mainly have to deal with low curve (under 4.00) and has been cutting this foam Laps as PLAP1 whith acceptable results. Because if cut as Faom the foam come Incorrect. All is explained in previos post in this thead.

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gola
    I am measuring the concave curve of the lens that has first fine with the foam lap.

    We has talk about this in this post and there was the idea that the pressure in the cylinder machine could be the cause. I has placed it on 12 pound for finishing and polishing. 5 minute polishing now on 505 and 506. This did not solved.

    I am compensating for pad thickness the curves (doing the calculation) as i where to cut it on my old Shuron lap cutter. I have a small excell program for that manually.

    In my SGX if cut as PLAP1 the generator dos not compensate for pad thicness. If i cut high curves compensated for pad thickness then the foam laps are correct. I mainly have to deal with low curve (under 4.00) and has been cutting this foam Laps as PLAP1 whith acceptable results. Because if cut as Faom the foam come Incorrect. All is explained in previos post in this thead.
    There's certainly a setting for pad thickness, which, if set correctly, will compensate the lap curves accordingly. I don't recall offhand exactly where this setting is, but I bet GC Tech Support can tell you real quickly. If I recall correctly, the field is labeled (appropriately enough) "Pad Thickness". It may be in the Lens Material setup (which is not as strange as it sounds).

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    Thanks shanbaum
    I just closed the lab. I will look for that setting on monday. By the way, there is a GC reprensentative visiting on last week. I will talk to him about.

    Is there a setting to cut foam laps as FOAM but slower? Maybe this could solve the problem i have with inacurate faom laps cut as foam but not if i cut them as PLAP1

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gola
    Thanks shanbaum
    I just closed the lab. I will look for that setting on monday. By the way, there is a GC reprensentative visiting on last week. I will talk to him about.

    Is there a setting to cut foam laps as FOAM but slower? Maybe this could solve the problem i have with inacurate faom laps cut as foam but not if i cut them as PLAP1
    It's possible to set foam to cut the same way as PLAP1 - the machine doesn't do these things by name; the names refer to a collection of parameters which can be adjusted as you see fit. So, it's possible to set "Foam" to cut like "PLap1" or vice-versa, just as it's possible to create a large number of unique combinations of parameters completely different from either of those.

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    OptiBoard Professional RT's Avatar
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    You don't really want to cut foam laps slower--the slower speed creates extra heat, which can result in melting of the foam lap, particularly at the center. Going slower when cutting the foam lap does not increase accuracy of the cut, and can create other problems.

    The indirect method of measuring foam laps, by measuring a lens that has been fined with a foam lap, is inadequate. It pre-supposes that the lens is cut correctly, the lap is cut correctly, and the cylinder machine operation doesn't damage the lap.

    Gerber's foam laps have a compressive stregth of just over 100 PSI, which is pretty strong. However, it is very easy when fining a lens to create instantaneous pressures well over that. Generally, any mismatch between the lens and lap curve creates "hot spots", where the contact area between lens and lap is small in area, which leads to high contact pressures. In short, you end up deforming the lap with the lens. What you imagine to be an improperly cut lap could actually be an improperly cut lens! Improperly maintained wobble assemblies add to that deforming. Similarly, improper setup of the pad thickness gives you two problems--the padded lap is the wrong curvature, and the mismatch between lens and lap can deform the lap.

    A good sign of a deformed lap is that your sphere powers come out a little weak, your cyls a little strong, and total power comes out about right.

    Note that if you use a 2 step fining process, you should not stack the pads on top of each other--peel the first pad off, then put the second pad on. The 2 pads should be of equal thickness.

    My guess is that you have a combination of problems which prevent you from using foam laps. But all is not lost. Here's a few ideas:

    1. As Shanbaum said, check your Pad Thickness settings. Look in the Lens Material setup on the SGX--the system allows you to use different pad thicknesses for each material you use. Note however, that errors in pad thickness probably don't account for your problems on flat curves--typically, errors in pad thickness show up more on steep curves. But if you've made some manual corrections to make your steeper curves come out right, you may have thrown off your ability to produce flatter curves.

    2. Do a "quick fine" test to see how well the lens and lap mate to each other. Fine the lens for 5-10 seconds, and look at the pattern of smooth and rough surface. Ideal pattern would be equal fining--not center-->out nor edge-->in. If you see concentric rings, you have an improperly calibrated generator (tool change procedure wasn't done right). An improperly calibrated SGX results in non-spherical and non-toric curves. The SGX has setup parameters that allow you to control how the lens is cut at the very center, as well as how the lens is cut outside the diameter of the block. The SGX can be fine tuned to give you perfectly even fining.

    3. Make sure that the foam laps are firmly pressed down onto the adapter before putting into the SGX. Step on the lap before cutting to ensure it is firmly on the adapter. If the lap rocks during cutting, you'll get non-spherical curves.

    4. Cut a -10.00 diopter lens. Measure it with your sag gauge. Despite the "rough" surface, you should be able to measure -10.00 +- 0.03 diopters. If not, your tool change calibration is probably wrong.

    5. I believe that Gerber recommends using a shorter stroke and orbit when using foam laps. Not sure if that's possible with your cylinder machines. But chances are your older machines were set up with large stroke and orbit and high pressures to quickly correct curves that came off older generators with elliptical error. With the accuracy of the SGX, you should be able to do a better job with smaller orbits and less pressure. The game has changed.

    6. Crib lenses in the SGX. You'll always get more consistent results with the reduced diameters.

    Believe me, the system is more than capable of producing usable foam laps--that's why it was such a popular machine. It is important to believe that, because your troubleshooting process will be much different if you assume that it is supposed to work, as opposed to your process if you assume it won't work. Instead of investing your effort in finding alternate ways to cut the laps, let's focus on why the method that works for rsandr and many others doesn't work in your laboratory.
    RT

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT
    5. I believe that Gerber recommends using a shorter stroke and orbit when using foam laps. Not sure if that's possible with your cylinder machines. But chances are your older machines were set up with large stroke and orbit and high pressures to quickly correct curves that came off older generators with elliptical error. With the accuracy of the SGX, you should be able to do a better job with smaller orbits and less pressure. The game has changed.
    This is about the only thing I have never adjusted.

    What sort of stroke size are we talking ?

    I appear to have a stroke of about 21-22mm (diam) and a similar orbit.

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    RT:
    I really appreciate your explanation of why it should work and why it might not be working.
    You should understand my frustration, i have had this generator for almost two years and has never been able to trust in foam laps made on it. It took me almost a year to figure out that the problem where the foam laps. At the beginning i thougth that prescriptions where not correct because of Innovations and has spend a lot of time looking for a correct setting on it. I was able to set Innovations to do a more precise calculation according to my needs. Also retrued many of my aluminun laps which where part of the problem.
    When i ran out of options the last thing to do was to inspect foam laps.

    The only thing i can measure is the lens that was worked on the foam lap and by the way i sell lenses and not foam laps. I understand that on some circumstances the lens could deform the lap. But what else i can do. Accept that they are ok and keep waisting lenses?

    What i do not undestand is why a foam lap cut as PLAP1 produces a correct lens and cut as foam does not. Same curvature, same cylinder machine and same settings everywhere?

    Sorry my friend but foam laps cut as PLAP1 still has a speed that does not melt the faom material.

    By the way rsandr has a similar problem with foam laps.
    Quote Originally Posted by rsandr
    I use Coburn 506 finers/smoothers and have given up on foam laps.
    I know you are trying to help and appreciate that.
    I am worried because we are about to receive a larger generator from GC and the SGX would be used mostly to make laps. if foam laps are not good it is usesless.
    Last edited by gola; 03-12-2006 at 07:47 PM.

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    Just found this
    http://looktopsi.com/instruction/lap_gauge.pdf

    It say it can measure foam laps.

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