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Thread: OD hates Poly

  1. #1
    small but mighty! Nettie's Avatar
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    OD hates Poly

    First of all, I really do love my OD. He has the best atitude and is very thourogh with his exams and kind to his patients. He is one of the best Dr.'s I have ever worked with. My problem is that he will come out of the office, and with the patient standing there, tell me exactly what material to put them in and what fitting height they need if they are in progressives. He hates Poly, and if anyone has a cyl. higher than a -.75 he will say to go with cr-39 or hi-index. A patient yesterday wanted polarized sunglasses, which we can only get in poly and when I explained this to the patient he freaked out cause THE DR SAID THAT WOULD BE BAD!!!! His rx is:
    OD: +.25 -1.25x 85
    OS: -.25 -.75x80
    I would never assume to know more than my Dr. does, but what do you think about this RX in poly? I talked the guy into it and assured him if there was any distortion we would put him in cr-39 with a tint.
    How many patients have you had with high cyl. that have had prblems with poly, or have done fine with poly? My huby's rx is
    OD: -.25 -4.25 x 95
    OS: -.25 -3.75 x 90
    and he is in poly and has never had any distortion at all. (he wouldn't let me put him in hi-index because he is a cheapo! ;) )
    I guess I just wish my Dr. would let ME decide which material to use, and I definetely know how to fit a progressive. That is why I get paid the big bucks. :D Any advice on your experience with poly would be appreciated.
    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    One of the worst people here
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    Again I hate it when the doctors sell to the patients. I think it is the dispensers job. However, you cannot have dissident information in the practice either. So what needs to be done if find other materials or convince the doctor otherwise.

    Also, there are a lot of polarized lenses made in CR-39.

  3. #3
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Big Smile Dont agree with boss.................

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettie
    He hates Poly, and if anyone has a cyl. higher than a -.75 he will say to go with cr-39 or hi-index.
    Your Dr. Boss, does have an opinion on Poly which he has not shared with you and does not really have to do it.

    We are all entitled to our own opinions and specially when being the boss, you can also enforce it. As long as he is in charge you will have to go along with it or find another boss.

  4. #4
    Optician Extraordinaire
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    Why does he hate poly? Has he personally had a problem wearing it? I have run into a few people that didn't like it, but I bet 99% of people have no problem with it.

  5. #5
    Allen Weatherby
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    Poly Problem?

    My guess is, and this maybe the best way to approach the Dr. on this, is he has based his opinion on poly years ago. There still are differences in poly material grades that are sold, however the early problems with the optics of poly were a combination of material and manufacturing process. Today many poly manufactures produce an optically good quality lens.

    As for polarized poly, at ICE-TECH we specialize in polarized lenses and use our own semi-finished lens blank. This is produced to exacting standards and we have not had one problem due to the material being polycarbonate. High cylinders, 8 base front curves with -4.00 sphere, -2.25 cylinder etc. Our process usually has a maximum lens thickness of 4.5mm or less with a 1.4mm center thickness.

    You could try asking your Doctor what bad experiences he has had with poly. If these were years ago you might suggest that you have heard that there have been great improvements in the production of poly in recent years. I also can not understand why he is focused on cylinder power as the way to determine when not to use poly. Have you shared your husbands experience with poly?

    If he is concerned about the overall success of the business, what I would worry about is all of the people that he is requiring you to force into high index at a higher price and they later get another pair of glasses from another optical who puts them in poly and they can see fine. In this case your business could be perceived as having forced the patient into a high priced product who did not need it, and they will not be a customer of your establishment after this is discovered.

    You can also show the doctor this Optiboard discussion.

  6. #6
    Old Optician to New OD Aarlan's Avatar
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    I also hate poly.

    bad with heat.
    bad with chemicals.
    scratches too easily *
    spiderweb cracking in many drill mounts.
    poor abbe value...similar to 1.67, but w/o the high index.
    poor tintability*
    more chance of non adapt as opposed to some other materials.
    costs pennies for the big guys, but they charge through the nose.


    Try trivex, for lower powers or 1.67 for higher.


    Poly is good for safety and kids.


    AA

    * some newer poly lenses are better in this regard, but there are still other choices that may still be better.

  7. #7
    small but mighty! Nettie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser
    Your Dr. Boss, does have an opinion on Poly which he has not shared with you and does not really have to do it.

    We are all entitled to our own opinions and specially when being the boss, you can also enforce it. As long as he is in charge you will have to go along with it or find another boss.
    He is not my boss....I do not work for him. He rents space from me in my store and works with us. I am the boss of my store, and his office is his own eyecare business. I just want to keep a good relationship with him because I think he is a wonderful Dr.

    Thank you all for your responses. He has never worn glasses or contacts, so I don't think he would have had a bad personal experience, but maybe someone he knows did. He has only been in practice for 3 years since he became an OD, but has a lot of lab experience. So I value his opinion, I just don't want it to affect what my patient may want or need on the optician side of things. Maybe if he asks what they plan on getting with their RX....he knows all we sell is poly polarized. And I really do not like being told what seg to use on my prog. wearers. I guess we will have to have a talk,...I just wanted to see how y'all felt about poly. Thanks again.;)

  8. #8
    That Boy Ain't Right Blake's Avatar
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    If you're gonna "have a talk", be sure to use a big stick! :D

    If I had a dollar for every time a doc wanted to take a long time poly wearer out of it because they just didn't like the stuff, I could have a heck of a time at the WalMarts. That's not to say there weren't sometimes valid reasons for taking them out of poly, but many times it was based on the doc's biases and not the patient's experiences.
    Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear brighter before you hear them speak.

  9. #9
    Why are you heating poly?
    Why are your cleaning lenses with chemicals?
    Learn how to do drill mounts correctly.
    Very few people pick up on the low abbe value.
    Tintable poly works just fine.
    Very small chance of non-adapt.
    Does not cost very much at all.
    Trivex is very expensive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aarlan
    I also hate poly.

    bad with heat.
    bad with chemicals.
    scratches too easily *
    spiderweb cracking in many drill mounts.
    poor abbe value...similar to 1.67, but w/o the high index.
    poor tintability*
    more chance of non adapt as opposed to some other materials.
    costs pennies for the big guys, but they charge through the nose.


    Try trivex, for lower powers or 1.67 for higher.


    Poly is good for safety and kids.


    AA

    * some newer poly lenses are better in this regard, but there are still other choices that may still be better.

  10. #10
    Old Optician to New OD Aarlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optical_1
    Why are you heating poly?
    Why are your cleaning lenses with chemicals?
    Learn how to do drill mounts correctly.
    Very few people pick up on the low abbe value.
    Tintable poly works just fine.
    Very small chance of non-adapt.
    Does not cost very much at all.
    Trivex is very expensive.
    Left in a hot car in the summer
    Normal household cleaners...regardless of how much you instruct your customers there can be damage from windex or others.
    drill mounts when done perfectly can still stress at the mounting point...why take the chance?
    Why chance anyone picking up on a low abbe when there are lenses with better optical properties (isn't offering the best vision our main goal?)
    Larger chance of non adapt than any other lens
    does not cost alot, but that's my point...why charge a premium for a lens that is inexpensive and has a fair number of draw backs...It smacks of impropriety.
    Trivex from the supplier I use offers an incredible replacement plan. The extra cost is well worth it for the benefit to the customer and my own peace of mind that it won't come with all the afformentioned issues.

    I suppose it is all about being better. Why would you sell the same item that all the big boxes do (and they sell it at a lower price because their cost is lower), when you can sell a product they can't offer that is arguably a better product? Sure you can claim you patients come for your spectacular service, but if they find that they can purchase the same lens product at a substantial discount you may lose more customers in the coming years. If you offer a different product with demonstrable benefits over what the others are selling AND offer stellar service I think a practice would be better off.

    Just my two cents, and I was over exagerating about hating poly. After 10 years of peddling poly from a mall store, I got a little irritated from only offering CR39 or Poly. Poly is still the lens of choice for a lot of professionals, and more power to them. But just one annoyed or lost customer for any of the afformentioned issues is too many for me. Especially if it was offered as a Premium or Better product


    AA

  11. #11
    Allen Weatherby
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    Don't blame all poly-- look at the hard coating

    What chemical issue you are having with Poly? What is happening to a poly lens? You may actually be complaining about the grade of hard coating used and the processing after surfacing. I know there are a number of excellent AR coated poly finished lenses that will stand up great.

    Depending on the lab and the treatments used for semi-finished is where you may have experienced the problem.

    As for Abbe value. This is my number one heard complaint from opticians and the hardest one to prove. My opinon is many problems get blamed on Abbe value that have nothing to due with cromatic vision issues. As a matter of fact I have yet to see any optical retail establishment with equipment capable of testing a lens for an abbe value problem.

    How do you determine a customer has a lens with an abbe value problem?

    I think you see more problems related to hard coating that have incorrectly been identified as a lens abbe value as the problem. Opticians are trained about abbe value to my knowledge there is little factual training for opticians on hard coating and AR, much less what poor or degrading hard coat can do to the optics and performanace of a lens.

    I am not saying that there are no real abbe value issue it is just they are a very small part of the problems encountered with lenses not performing as desired.

  12. #12
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Polarized comes in other materials than Poly

  13. #13
    Allen Weatherby
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    Polarized alternatives

    Matthew you said:
    Polarized comes in other materials than Poly
    I know of number of lens materials; the two most known are, CR-39 and Poly. (Also available in 1.67 and 1.60) However this thread was about the poly.

    What polarized lens material do you prefer and why?

    We currently use poly only since we focus on one material we optimize the complete process. A hard coating designed for poly is used, our AR and mirror treatments are all processed in the same manner. We do not have to be all things to all people. As we expand our prescription lens offering we will continue to match each lens material with a specific process and not try to offer a one solution for all lens materials.

  14. #14
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Blue Jumper Little factual training...................

    Quote Originally Posted by AWTECH
    I think you see more problems related to hard coating that have incorrectly been identified as a lens abbe value as the problem. Opticians are trained about abbe value to my knowledge there is little factual training for opticians on hard coating and AR, much less what poor or degrading hard coat can do to the optics and performanace of a lens.
    AWTECH, how right you are.....................there is a large manufacturer of poly lenses, whose automatic hard coat dipping system has been designed in a way that it withdraws the lenses too fast. This results in the hard coat being twice as thick across one half of the lens.

    How about that for quality ? How would you recognize such a major default in manufacturing ? You probably dont care because it is not visible by eye.

  15. #15
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Redhot Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Nettie
    He is not my boss....I do not work for him. He rents space from me in my store and works with us. I am the boss of my store, and his office is his own eyecare business. I just want to keep a good relationship with him because I think he is a wonderful Dr.
    Thank you......................know that we have established the fact who is the boss, you can also act like the boss.

    The optometrist has rented space from you to do his own business there. His business is to refract and look after the side of his profession which is to produce a solution for better vision...........again is make a prescription for his patient.

    Tha does not give him the right to prescribe materials...........neither in lenses nor in frames. This is the job of the optician (which should be qualified), who has the responsibility to redo a job if it is not done right.

    Now you can put the wonderful man in his place.

  16. #16
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    An “arrangement” such as Nettie finds herself in will usually result in problems of this nature. You can bet your PD stick that the OD looks upon himself as the “boss.” Rarely will a relationship of this nature be harmonious as each party has their own opinions and pecuniary interests.

    Cripes, what you have here is a relationship base upon the principals of matrimony. And we all know the problems that exist there. So, like a marriage, either suffer quietly, work out your differences or get a divorce.

  17. #17
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    i hold "professional" staff meetings, where all of the professional staff meet once a week for 1/2 hour to discuss the latest technological changes, and any other pressing issues, like how to use the tonometer more effectivley. This is a savvy move for you, as after a few meetings, and the dust has settled - everyone feels a little more open to "suggestion" and other peoples ideas. Your Dr might not have a clue how technically competent you are. He might have a point about Poly you have over looked

  18. #18
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    As an O.D. myself, this guy's waaaay off base.

    1.) He doesn't know what he's talking about
    2.) He's way overstepping his boundaries by doing lens design in the situation you mention. If he wants to do lens design, tell him to get his own optical.

    Question to the board, and I know the responses will vary according to locale:
    If an Rx includes material, or brand, are you obligated to "dispense as written", or are you allowed to "substitute"? In other words, what constitutes a spectacle Rx in your area, or doesn't anyone know?

  19. #19
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    QDO1

    I think that Nettie's business model here in the USA may be different than yours there in old Blighty. Apparently we have two separate business entities trying to share resources and a common patient base. Its a formula for trouble. I have been there and done that and it it ain't one thing it's another.

    This is not to say that there are not some happy and successful co-ventures out there – it’s just that they are few and far between.

  20. #20
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    drk asks:

    “If an Rx includes material, or brand, are you obligated to "dispense as written", or are you allowed to "substitute"? In other words, what constitutes a spectacle Rx in your area, or doesn't anyone know?”

    In nearly forty years in the business I have never paid any attention to anything on an Rx form other than the patients name and the distance spectacle Rx. That’s all I was ever interested in. I also never got involved in debating this viewpoint and have no intention of doing so today. Furthermore, I am not going to play barroom lawyer and offer any opinions on what constitutes a legal prescription in any of the fifty States. I leave that to others with nothing better to do with their time. I am reasonably sure that some reader of this message will have a legal or professional opinion in this matter. You are entitled to your professional opinion but if it’s a legal opinion please do us the courtesy of citing the relevant State Statutes or court decision. I just hate anecdotal evidence.

    Interestingly enough, this question would never have come up 25 years ago.

  21. #21
    Allen Weatherby
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    How much can we change an optician or a lens Mfg. change the Rx?

    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    As an O.D. myself, this guy's waaaay off base.

    1.) He doesn't know what he's talking about
    2.) He's way overstepping his boundaries by doing lens design in the situation you mention. If he wants to do lens design, tell him to get his own optical.

    Question to the board, and I know the responses will vary according to locale:
    If an Rx includes material, or brand, are you obligated to "dispense as written", or are you allowed to "substitute"? In other words, what constitutes a spectacle Rx in your area, or doesn't anyone know?
    To add to drk's question what are the board members thoughts regarding newer technology lens designs using freeform technology, where frame wrap and pantoscopic tilt actually change the Rx. This change will make it match the as worn position.

    How many O.D.s will object to this change being made to their written prescription. Many Rx's have been wrong in the as worn position since they were correct when measured in a flat plane with a lensometer which does not take wrap or tilt into account.

    Thoughts wanted

  22. #22
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker
    drk asks:

    “If an Rx includes material, or brand, are you obligated to "dispense as written", or are you allowed to "substitute"? In other words, what constitutes a spectacle Rx in your area, or doesn't anyone know?”

    In nearly forty years in the business I have never paid any attention to anything on an Rx form other than the patients name and the distance spectacle Rx. That’s all I was ever interested in. I also never got involved in debating this viewpoint and have no intention of doing so today. Furthermore, I am not going to play barroom lawyer and offer any opinions on what constitutes a legal prescription in any of the fifty States. I leave that to others with nothing better to do with their time. I am reasonably sure that some reader of this message will have a legal or professional opinion in this matter. You are entitled to your professional opinion but if it’s a legal opinion please do us the courtesy of citing the relevant State Statutes or court decision. I just hate anecdotal evidence.

    Interestingly enough, this question would never have come up 25 years ago.
    Dick, from the tone of your response, I think you misinterpret what side of the issue I am on.

    I feel that a spectacle Rx should include refraction findings, only. I do not feel it should be a quasi-medical record including acuities or prognosis, etc., nor do I think it should include lens design specifications. I say leave that up to the dispenser. Man, I fill outside Rx's as well, and it virtually kills me to fill some as written, but I do.

    My question still exists, though.

  23. #23
    Old Optician to New OD Aarlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWTECH
    As for Abbe value. This is my number one heard complaint from opticians and the hardest one to prove. My opinon is many problems get blamed on Abbe value that have nothing to due with cromatic vision issues. As a matter of fact I have yet to see any optical retail establishment with equipment capable of testing a lens for an abbe value problem.

    How do you determine a customer has a lens with an abbe value problem?
    In the many years I spent with one of the big corporates (where we sold primarily ALL poly), there were countless examples of people who had difficulties with their new glasses, and when we remade them into CR39 (same Rx, same PD, same vertical centration) it was instantly better. Certainly the percentage of people with issues was less than 10% (guestimate...perhaps 1-3% of patients). But how many others had issues and simply got used to it?

    Most of your patients may not voice any displeasure since they trust your judgement, especially if you have a good reputation. But I've seen people struggle through some strange things (wrong rx from doc, poor measurments, etc.) all because they trusted their ECP. But is something that is merely OK acceptable, when better is available?

    Once again, poly is OK (even necessary in many cases), but there are some good alternatives.

    AA

  24. #24
    Old Optician to New OD Aarlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    Question to the board, and I know the responses will vary according to locale:
    If an Rx includes material, or brand, are you obligated to "dispense as written", or are you allowed to "substitute"? In other words, what constitutes a spectacle Rx in your area, or doesn't anyone know?
    It is far fetched to claim a name brand progressive is medically necessary. That would seem the same as 'prescribing' a Flexon or Luxottica frame. It certainly doesn't seem enforceable or even proper.

    I have seen Doctors prescribe certain segments (Round Seg or Exec for example) for specific reasons such as prism/visual field reasons. When folks without the proper optical background (sales person at a mall or inside a big box) decide to arbitrarily change to a ST28 because that is what is on their computer screen or what they know...That is not filling the prescription properly.

    AA

  25. #25
    Allen Weatherby
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    Aarlan;

    Most of your patients may not voice any displeasure since they trust your judgement, especially if you have a good reputation. But I've seen people struggle through some strange things (wrong rx from doc, poor measurments, etc.) all because they trusted their ECP. But is something that is merely OK acceptable, when better is available?

    Once again, poly is OK (even necessary in many cases), but there are some good alternatives.
    Please read my post about Poly problems and vs. Hardcoating

    You cannot blame the material for a processing problem. If you purchase poor quality injected polycarbonate lenses with contamination due to dirty injection enviornment, or a hard coat that has an incorrect index and varies in thickness. These problems are not due the material being polycarbonate.

    What optical property of clean polycarbonate has caused a problem? How did you determine it was due to the material polycarbonate.

    Too many people purchase a poly lens from one manufacturer and then find another who is 10% cheaper and assume they will be getting the same quality lens. Maybe yes or maybe not, but few if any dispensers know or have equipment to tell the difference. Did you know that there are at least three different methods of making injected polycarbonate lenses. There maybe more. Injection speed makes more lenses. Slower injection time can produce a better quality lens with less stress. Which method do you think the low priced poly producers use?

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