To continue what was shaping up to be a very interesting (though entirely off-topic) conversation in a clean thread, I've pulled drk's comments (slightly abridged to remain topical) from there over here and added my own.
Thanks for that. I am tremendously interested in all this, because it's important to the history (and future) of the world in ways that aren't always apparent from the surface. For instance, the Babylon/Baghdad connection actually makes the whole Iraq war seem marginally more sensible, as it does for the rock-solid and beyond-the-call-of-duty (I'd say maniacal) right-wing support of Israel. Google "Larry Franklin" and "AIPAC" to learn some fun stuff about that. This goes back to my initial point--it's fine to believe this stuff privately, but when you start basing foreign policy (with really, really big international ramifications) on little more than your belief in religious prophecy, this is a problem.Originally Posted by drk
If I ever do go back to school, a few courses in history of religion and/or general religious studies would probably find their way into my courseload. The things we've done over the span of recorded human history in the name of religion--from human sacrifice to wars to inquistions to ritualistic physical mutilation to going to a special room on a particular day of the week to listen to a guy in a long robe talk in a language no one understands--totally fascinates me.
Anyway. You cottoned on to the meaning of my question precisely--why plan on anything beyond the next year or two if you're so very certain it's going to happen? The indelicate way to put it is just to ask you if you're planning for your retirement. But that's rude.
Not "delayed imprisonment" so much as "continued existence". Why would an omnipotent being create an adversary it couldn't defeat? And if God could defeat the devil, why create him at all?Originally Posted by drk
And the bit about creating souls and testing the world still strikes me like a 5 year-old with Tinkertoys, creating intricate worlds only to later play Godzilla and destroy it. Seems a bit, I dunno, self-defeating. What happens then? We all live in Heaven and sing popular Christian rock hits while sitting around a big campfire? Why not just do that from the beginning?
Every day, I hear weird post-hoc justifications of deeply-seated beliefs, and I have to keep reminding myself "Correlation is not causality, correlation is not causality". There are many reasons for America's current position in the driver's seat of the world in economic and military terms, but most of them are boring and not are really germane to the discussion at hand. Christianity is not in that group of things. To tie one to the other is as farcical as tying rising global temperatures to the decreasing number of pirates.Originally Posted by drk
Correlation is not causality. Can't say it enough.
I don't see it that way at all. I'm assuming that when you cite a "popular liberal viewpoint", you're talking about the separation of church and state. There is nothing in keeping religion out of government that requires you to "deny your faith". At all.Originally Posted by drk
It is, I have to say, a wonderfully-phrased talking point. It's perfectly-turned--technically true if looked at very narrowly, and sounds dark and scary, as if commandos are dropping out of black helicopters to steal your crucifixes by night. The only thing that can make you deny your faith is you. All I'm saying is that if rank-and-file believers need every person in the country to affirm it with them, that belief must not be very strong.
I'm all for keeping religion of any kind out of the public sphere. Not because I hate religion, freedom and the Fourth of July (as opponents of the separation seem to paint their enemies), but because religion is a private thing. I don't care what yours is, and mine isn't any of your business. Go to church on Sunday, say grace before meals, live according to what a very old book says is the right way to live and leave it at that.
This is getting unnecessarily long and I'm not sure I'm making the point I meant to make when I started, so I'll toss it back to you.
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