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Thread: Extraterrestrial Intelligence?

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    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Extraterrestrial Intelligence?

    Will we find Extraterrestrial Intelligence?
    Is there the possibility of Extraterrestrial Intelligence?
    If we do, will some of us have to re-evaluate the concept of God?

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    There are still few enough signs of intelligence bright enough to have a concept of God on the earth.

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    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    There are still few enough signs of intelligence bright enough to have a concept of God on the earth.
    anywhere else Chip?

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I sincerely doubt we'll ever, ever, ever find evidence of extraterrestrial life, because my religious belief virtually precludes it.

    Yes, indeed, if ET life were found, there would be a modification of what, at least, the Christian God of the Bible is all about.

    It is a tenet of conservative orthodoxy that we are here by special creation, and not by an inevitable process.

    It is also a tenet of conservative orthodoxy that the Bible is accurate, and sufficient, and the concept of multiple special creations, while not specificially disclaimed in the Bible, is against the grain of the Bible message.

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    I don't think there are any little green men on Neptune. But if there are, why couldn't God have created them too?

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    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    Doesn't the Bible say that Earth was made for Man?? So any ET's that we may find, while intelligent, may not be MAN.

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    The question isn't whether He could, but whether He did.

    If He did, then what about their salvation? Were they given the free will that we were? Is there a race of sinless aliens out there? If they were not sinless, did God not provide a means to their salvation? Did the Son incarnate on countless planets and die propitionary deaths?

    The question is what their relationship to Him would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    The question is what their relationship to Him would be.
    Third cousin twice removed.

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    That Boy Ain't Right Blake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqui
    Doesn't the Bible say that Earth was made for Man?? So any ET's that we may find, while intelligent, may not be MAN.
    Kinda like on the Star Trek episode where Capt. Kirk lands on the planet where it's all women.

    I don't think the Bible really conflicts with the idea of life on other planets, even though it doesn't mention them, either.

    If there is a planet with creatures like Jar Jar Binks, though, we must destroy it. :D
    Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear brighter before you hear them speak.

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    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blake
    Kinda like on the Star Trek episode where Capt. Kirk lands on the planet where it's all women.
    :D
    sounds great to me (OR TERRIBLE?)

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    Master OptiBoarder Shwing's Avatar
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    In 1961, U.S. astronomer Frank Drake proposed an equation for calculating the number of technologically advanced civilizations existing in our galaxy. The Drake equation can be expressed as: N = R x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L.- "N" is the number of civilizations in the galaxy that have developed to the point of being able to communicate.

    - "R" is the rate at which suitable stars are formed with the capability of forming planets such as ours.

    - "fp" is the proportion of stars with planets.

    - "ne" is the number of planets around any star with a temperature range that would be habitable by humans.

    - "fl" is the proportion of planets on which life has evolved.

    - "fi" is the proportion of planets that has reached the stage of human intelligence.

    - "fc" is the proportion of planets that have developed a communications technology similar to our own.

    - "L" is the length of time for which an intelligent civilization can hope to survive either accidental destruction by outside forces or self-destruction by misuse of its own technology.

    Taking Mr. Drake's equation, a group of scientists called the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) estimate the rate of star formation at about 20 per year. SETI suggest that half of all stars will form planetary systems, that the number of planets within one system that could support life is one, and that life will appear and evolve on one in five such planets. Mindful that dolphins and whales are intelligent but have never developed technology, SETI also suggests that technology might be expected to appear in half the other worlds that support life. So putting these numbers into Drake's equation: N = 20 x 0.5 x 1 x 0.2 x 0.5 x L. N = L. The number of civilizations in the galaxy is equal to the number of years (L) that an advanced technological civilization can hope to endure. Of course, the only such civilization we have to go on is our own. It has only been technologically advanced for some 50 years or so. Thus, the number of advanced life forms in our galaxy is at least 50. But there are obviously many, many assumptions built into this.
    Shwing

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Conservative estimates place....

    Conservative estimates place the number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy alone at over 100 billion, coupled with the fact that there are a few hundred BILLION galaxies in the universe, the supposition that we are the only intelligent life is pretty unrealistic.Given the formula above and the rate at which new stars have formed, it is almost a certainty that life exists outside our solar system.
    Science is science and therefore proveable. There comes a time which things cannot be proved, and thats where faith comes in.Either you have it or you don't.No big whoop either way. I choose to believe that we are not unique, and I choose to believe in God. I also can prove that the Bible was written by man and not God, and is perhaps more narrow than our creator would have had it, had she (or he) had written it.

    gospel according to hj
    Last edited by hcjilson; 12-14-2005 at 02:39 PM. Reason: grammar
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    It is possible that God is only the God of our Solar System. It is possible that there may be other gods of our Solar System. Does the commandment not read: "Thou Shalt have no other gods before Me?"

    This might imply that there are other gods an you might even be allowed to recognise them, but only after God.

    Chip

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    What?

    Other "gods" are recognized by that statement, but not endorsed as true gods!

    How, pray tell, can their be multiple supreme beings? That's a paradox.

    HJ, "billion" is 10 to the 9th power. a billion billions is 10 to the 18th. Some estimates of the probability of life existing are much lower than that.

    http://www.illustramedia.com/tpppreview.htm
    Last edited by drk; 12-14-2005 at 12:30 PM.

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    Paper Shuffler GOS_Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    The question isn't whether He could, but whether He did.

    If He did, then what about their salvation? Were they given the free will that we were? Is there a race of sinless aliens out there? If they were not sinless, did God not provide a means to their salvation?Did the Son incarnate on countless planets and die propitionary deaths?

    The question is what their relationship to Him would be.
    If they were not sinless, did God not provide a means to their salvation?

    Angels were given freewill but not salvation.

    Is there a race of sinless aliens out there?

    There might be ...

    Mankind is made in the image of God while Angels are not.
    "I just love the smell of Optidirt in the morning.

    Smells like------Victory." -- Uncle Fester :p


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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOS_Queen
    If they were not sinless, did God not provide a means to their salvation?

    Angels were given freewill but not salvation.

    Is there a race of sinless aliens out there?

    There might be ...

    Mankind is made in the image of God while Angels are not.
    Good post.

    Angels are not of this universe, though. We're talking about physical creatures. I guess God could have made aliens that he gave freewill and was willing to let burn, but I think His nature of love precludes this. If He makes them, I think He loves them, and gives them the chance.

    Sinless means doing God's will all the time. It is possible, I suppose. Picture the Garden where Adam and Eve don't succomb. It's possible. Is it likely? Who knows? Have we had revelation about it? No.

    God creates a new heaven and a new earth in the end. I think that includes the cosmos.

    Another argument is uniformitarianism, if you want to invoke it (although that's a little hypocritical of me). If the universe is decaying in this area, it would be everywhere else, which is inconsistent with our notion of paradise.

    I'm just saying there is no reason to believe it, and more reason not to.

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    Paper Shuffler GOS_Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    Good post.

    Angels are not of this universe, though. We're talking about physical creatures. I guess God could have made aliens that he gave freewill and was willing to let burn, but I think His nature of love precludes this. If He makes them, I think He loves them, and gives them the chance.

    Sinless means doing God's will all the time. It is possible, I suppose. Picture the Garden where Adam and Eve don't succomb. It's possible. Is it likely? Who knows? Have we had revelation about it? No.

    God creates a new heaven and a new earth in the end. I think that includes the cosmos.

    Another argument is uniformitarianism, if you want to invoke it (although that's a little hypocritical of me). If the universe is decaying in this area, it would be everywhere else, which is inconsistent with our notion of paradise.

    I'm just saying there is no reason to believe it, and more reason not to.
    Angels are not of this universe, though.

    They do have dominion over this earth.

    If He makes them, I think He loves them, and gives them the chance.

    Again, thinking back to angels, there is no redemption for the fallen ones. Zero, Zilch, Nada.
    "I just love the smell of Optidirt in the morning.

    Smells like------Victory." -- Uncle Fester :p


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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOS_Queen
    Angels are not of this universe, though.

    They do have dominion over this earth.

    If He makes them, I think He loves them, and gives them the chance.

    Again, thinking back to angels, there is no redemption for the fallen ones. Zero, Zilch, Nada.
    True, true. I guess I'm supposing two different standards for spiritual/physical creatures and purely spiritual.

    I guess another good argument for your side would be the case of animals, here on earth: Created? Yes. Sinners? No. Redeemed? Unnecessary. Eternal? No.

    So that means that aliens are soulless animals! Yikes, I'm more scared than ever! Shut off those dang telescopes before they come and eat us!:drop:

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    Master OptiBoarder Shwing's Avatar
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    Shwing

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    Master OptiBoarder Shwing's Avatar
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    And:

    Simpson’s Contemporary Quotations, compiled by James B. Simpson. 1988. NUMBER:3245 AUTHOR:Lewis Thomas

    QUOTATION:The uniformity of earth’s life, more astonishing than its diversity, is accountable by the high probability that we derived, originally, from some single cell, fertilized in a bolt of lightning as the earth cooled.

    ATTRIBUTION:The Lives of a Cell Viking 74 SUBJECTS:The World: Science
    BIOGRAPHY:Columbia Encyclopedia.
    Shwing

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    What?



    HJ, "billion" is 10 to the 9th power. a billion billions is 10 to the 18th. Some estimates of the probability of life existing are much lower than that.

    http://www.illustramedia.com/tpppreview.htm
    Thanks for the lesson in elementary mathmatics. What is the point you are trying to make? Secondly, whose estimates of "probability of life existing are lower than What?
    Sorry I was unable to download the clip, looks like an interesting DVD though! tx hj
    Last edited by hcjilson; 12-15-2005 at 08:23 AM. Reason: reworded to sound more polite-no offense meant-
    "Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
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    Master OptiBoarder spartus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    Will we find Extraterrestrial Intelligence?
    Is there the possibility of Extraterrestrial Intelligence?
    If we do, will some of us have to re-evaluate the concept of God?
    1. If they haven't found us already, probably. Not necessarily soon, though.
    2. Almost certainly, though if it is out there, it's probably radically different from Star Trek's interpretation.
    3. I'd certainly say so.

  23. #23
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    HJ, I was just showing my work, not schooling you. My regrets.

    My point: the probability of life occuring can be lower than the vast number of temporo-spatial opportunities.

    But maybe you point out a fallacy in all our thinking: "Gambler's fallacy". If the odds of rolling a six are one in six, each time the dice is rolled, no matter how many times, the probablity of a six is still 1/6.

    No matter how many temporo-spatial rolls of the dice, the low probablity of life self-existing would make it grossly unlikely.

    I think the correct argument, therefore, for extraterrestrial life would not be the vastness of the universe, but the relatively high liklihood of life self-existing. That kind of formula could be devised by observing a significant sample here from earth, eventually.

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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    I always find it amusing when people who appear to be otherwise rational and intelligent state with certitude that God is the omniscient, omnipotent, eternal Power and in the same breathe claim to have a full understanding of the scope of His nature and plans. Really???

    It has been my observation for some time that the great majority of people can't properly explain why condensation forms on windows or how the microwave works, yet are perfectly comfortable making sweeping statements on eternal life and how God intends to deal with people who choose to worship outside the bounds of Christianity (usually it's not with free pizza and beer...). Go figure.

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    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    I always find it amusing when people who appear to be otherwise rational and intelligent state with certitude that God is the omniscient, omnipotent, eternal Power and in the same breathe claim to have a full understanding of the scope of His nature and plans. Really???

    It has been my observation for some time that the great majority of people can't properly explain why condensation forms on windows or how the microwave works, yet are perfectly comfortable making sweeping statements on eternal life and how God intends to deal with people who choose to worship outside the bounds of Christianity (usually it's not with free pizza and beer...). Go figure.
    they dont have to explain properly why condensation forms on windows or how the microwave works. For those with such faith, God makes it work (of course) LOL

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