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Thread: Intelligent Design vs. Evolution

  1. #126
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    there seem to be several options coming out here

    1. ID - some form of intellegence has designed and intellegently pre-thought out life on this planet god/buddah/aliens/any one else
    2. Creationisim - exclusivley a supernatural God created life exclusivley on this planet. This argument also comes with or without freewill and pre-destination attached
    3. Straight Evoloution - life has evolved from the basic chemicals, on this planet, over a long period of time. this is basically the Darwinist view
    4. Hybrid evoloution - meteors with some elements of life have had an impact on the origins of life, and then evoloution has taken its course
    Option 1. Ought to show traces of the intellegence left behind. the process, interaction and design would be quite evident, there would be a fosil void up to the point the design was implemented. It is arguable that the intellegence would have also included the effects of evoloution, and world wide disasters. There ought to be a purpose, and that purpose might be obvious to us. Idea 1 does not explain who designed the designer, or the designers designer

    Option 2. Creationisim - the religious version of ID. This argument is quite intangiable, and basically relies on the premis that god is supernatural and thus not actually proovable. The argument states that he creates (and steers?) as he wishes, and chooses to reveal (or not) as he will. The religious argument needs not respond to Logical argument or scientific facts, because the position is based on faith, rather than facts

    Option 3. This option is the mainstream option being taught nowadays, has the most scientific proof, but there are gaps, which are slowly being filled. This is the most logical and tangiable evedincial position.

    Option 4. this is unproved, but from a scientific stand point is a slight possibility, and possibly in some instances have been the beginning of life in some planatary environments

  2. #127
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    An "intelligence" that is definitely looking down on us

    blogged daily from High Altitude Overflight Imagery Interpretation Office


    AUTOMATIC IMAGERY DATABASE UPDATE

    Target ID: Intelligent Biological Design / Irreducible Biological Complexity postings


    Target image: Hair-like microscopic structures called cilia.

    Target status: Current and active / activity level high

    OptiBoard URLs: WordOfTheDay211 and WordOfTheDay215

    Additional target data: "ksquared"


    *EndOfAutoTransmtRecord*


    graphics: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/airplane/patches.html http://www.military-graphics.com
    Last edited by rinselberg; 11-27-2005 at 11:09 AM.

  3. #128
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Here is a thought… you are on a nice long walk in the mountains and come across an object. You examine it closely and observe that, as an object it’s both very complex and highly ordered. It has precisely flat and smooth edges, is as transparent and has several perfectly symmetrical sides. Kind of cool huh?

    You have a good look around and see that you are surrounded by millions of these things. Each one is beautiful, unique and symmetrical, and each one is unique. Not one of them is the same as another…

    Here is the big question. Who designed these objects, was intelligence involved?

    Nope, not at all – they are snowflakes


    The ID camp look at highly complex objects claiming that this complexity must have been designed, it could not have possibly come to be without intelligent design. Furthermore they offer this complexity of our universe as scientific evidence, and poof that there must be a designer


    So I throw down to the ID crowd the following. Please answer the following questions, and don’t miss the details:

    Prove / show the: who, where, why, when and what?
    • Who is the designer?
    • What did this designer do?
    • How did the designer create?
    • Why did the creation take place?
    • When was this designing done?
    The common thing so far about proponents of ID is that they love to bash science, Darwinism or evolution; but they cant stump up the bare faced facts of what they are purporting as the truth. So dish the details. What can you offer beyond the premise that a “???” did “???” on the date of “???” that caused “???” which explains everything else that happened from that point in time onwards. Please be specific

    This is why ID should not be taught in science classes. Because in science we try to be specific, base our judgments on facts and observations, lay the theories open to scrutiny.


    Without at least beginning to nail down any details of the theory of ID how can anyone begin to take it seriously

    If people want ID taught in schools then it should be in the same lessons that cover: the FSM, Pink unicorn on the lawn, major and minor religions gods and deities and cultural / tribal rites

  4. #129
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Lowly cilia may have Neo-Darwinists singing a brand new tune ...


    This barely visible water-borne rotifer achieves locomotion using the complex and microscopic hair-like structures called cilia.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksquared
    cilia: hair-like structures that are used for locomotion, and in some species, for feeding: A cilium consists of a membrane-coated bundle of fibers called an axoneme. The axoneme contains a ring of 9 double microtubules surrounding 2 central single microtubules. The filaments of the 11 microtubules are composed of two proteins ...

    Experiments indicate that ciliary motion results from the chemically-powered "walking" of the dynein arms on one microtubule up the neighboring subfiber of a second microtubule so that the two microtubules slide past each other ...

    What we see in the cilium is not only profound complexity, but also irreducible complexity on the molecular scale. The cilium must have the sliding filaments, connecting proteins, and motor proteins for function to occur. In the absence of any one of those components, the apparatus is useless.

    The lowly cilia may be composed of single molecules, but the complexity of the cilium is final and fundamental. Since the irreducibly complex cilium cannot have functional precursors, it cannot be produced by natural selection, which requires a continuum of function to work. Natural selection is powerless when there is no function to select.

    credit: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/index.html

    For the complete post from OptiBoard member ksquared: http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=215


    I can think of one way that the irreducible complexity argument could be rebutted by Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theorists; the key word is spandrel:

    In addition to his work on punctuated equilibrium, Gould, together with Richard Lewontin, in an influential 1979 paper, popularized the use of the architectural word "spandrel" in an evolutionary context, using it to mean a feature of an organism that exists as a necessary consequence of other features and is not actually selected for. The relative frequency of spandrels, so defined, versus adaptive features in nature, remains a controversial topic in evolutionary biology.
    credit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould

    So it may be that the cilia evolved through genetic mutation and natural selection as a spandrel: The cilia may have evolved as a necessary consequence of the development of other organic components which provided certain survival advantages other than locomotion and/or feeding. Or it may be (although I'm not sure that this fits within what Gould meant to convey by "spandrel") that the evolutionary precursors of the cilia, although incapable of locomotion or feeding functionalities, conferred other (yet undiscovered) adaptational advantages for the evolving organisms.

    Enterprising RinselNews™ science reporter Rinselberg (also an OptiBoard member) asked the widely published and well known Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theorist Robert Trivers for a reaction:


    Check your PC speaker loudness control and CLICK on the audio icon (above) to download a one-minute audio clip with Robert Trivers.


    Rinselberg has posted previously on the topics of Neo-Darwinism and Intelligent (Biological) Design Theory, and also on Theology, via:

    Post tittle: serendipity
    Subject: Latest observations of endosymbiosis - a powerful Neo-Darwinian "bullet"?
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...8&postcount=64

    Post title: RinselNews™ - Fair and Balanced
    Subject: Brief discussion of ID (Intelligent Design) and well known ID theorist Michael Behe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=265

    Post title: Fossil evidence for macroevolution
    Subject: Discusses transitional evolutionary forms in the fossil record from a Neo-Darwinist viewpoint.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=237

    Post title: Deism and the Big Bang
    Subject: Responds to ksquared's discourse concerning the Big Bang theory of the origins of the observable universe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=161

    Post title: A Neo-Darwinist speaks
    Subject: Comments on the possible natural evolution of human morality and links to a profile of the widely published Neo-Darwinist Robert Trivers.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...3&postcount=59



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  5. #130
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    If there was no intelligent design, then how do you explain how organized Rinselberg is?

  6. #131
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    What this irreducible complexity argument using cilia as an example chooses to ignore…


    • Cilia are found in some form or another in almost every single organism existence
    • Most scientists will say that cilia developed a very long time ago in the evolutionary chain, formed from mutated duplicated membrane protein genes. I wont bore you with the presumed process of the development of Cilia, because to be frank it is tedious, but if any one insists I can post it
    • Opps did I say proteins? Ah the irreducible argument just fell over again. The irreducible argument conveniently completely ignores the building blocks of the organism/structure concerned
    • No one has been able to find a real cilium with an irreducible set of proteins
    • The Irreducible Cilia argument also chooses to ignore organisms with simpler cilia-like structures (called pseudocilia) that lack some of the structures in true cilia. An example of that organism is the Apiocystis Brauniana, it is thought that pseudocilia represent an intermediate stage in the evolution of true cilia
    A. brauniana cell 8-10 μm pseudocilia visible

    Last edited by QDO1; 11-24-2005 at 11:41 AM.

  7. #132
    OptiWizard ksquared's Avatar
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    Ksquared simple word for the day evolves into an irreducibly complex .... cilia argument

    QDO1:What this irreducible complexity argument using cilia as an example chooses to ignore.....Cilia are found in some form or another in almost every single organism <in> existance.

    Ksquared:The existence of cilium in many different organisms in some form or another doesn’t change the fact that cilia are irreducibly complex. It’s not the quantity of complexities; it’s the quality of the complexities that determine whether something is irreducible.

    QDO1: Most scientists will say that cilia developed a very long time ago in the evolutionary chain, formed from mutated duplicated membrane protein genes. I wont bore you with the presumed process of the development of Cilia, because to be frank it is tedious, but if any one insists I can post it.

    Ksquared: Most scientists will agree life came into existence a long time ago but the origin of life question isn’t about the “when”. The question that needs to be answered is the “how”. Invoking the mutation process is also purely speculative, especially when most scientists know that mutations rarely produce an increase in function. More often than not, the changes they cause are harmful, instead of beneficial. Using mutations to explain how something came into existence is even more problematic when there are multiple genes and functions involved. All of which would need to mutate simultaneously and without interfering with any of the original function in order to produce any added benefit.
    QDO1: Opps did I say proteins? Ah the irreducible argument just fell over again. The irreducible argument conveniently completely ignores the building blocks of the organism/structure concerned. No one has been able to find a real cilium with an irreducible set of proteins.

    Ksqaured: Opps, I'm afraid you did. Proteins are at the very heart of IC argument and one of the causes for the current crisis in materialistic evolutionary thinking. And not only is the irreducible complexity of the proteins an inconvenient problem for evolutionists, DNA presents an even more perplexing issue. DNA is not only complex, it also contains a specific message (the instructions for building the proteins), and its very existence creates a chicken-egg dilemma because DNA relies on proteins for its production but proteins rely on DNA for their production. So which came first, proteins or DNA?

    Proteins are the building blocks of life, performing all of the jobs inside the cell except for storing the genetic information. Composed of long chains of chemical units called amino acids, the amino acids are like an alphabet of sorts. If the letters (amino acids) are arranged correctly you’ll get meaningful text (functional proteins). If not, you get gibberish (a non functional protein if it even forms at all). If the text is coherent you’ll have meaningful sentences (cilia).

    The sequencing of the amino acids in the chain determines the shape and function of the protein. Once the chain is complete, the amino acids collapse back on themselves forming an architecture that’s pre-programmed by the order of the amino acids. If the amino acids are sequenced correctly, the chain will fold into a functional protein.

    There are 30,000 distinct types of proteins, each containing a different combination of the 20 amino acids. Some of the chains are hundreds of units long.

    Here’s a quick look at some of the difficulties a protein 100 amino acids long would encounter in order for it to be created by random chance and natural selection.

    1st – The amino acids in living tissue must use a peptide bond to connect with the other amino acids in the chain. Other types of chemical bonds exist in nature but only a peptide can be used to connect the amino acids. In nature, only half of the possible chemical bonds are peptides. The probability of building a chain where all of the linkages involve peptide bonds is roughly one chance in 10 to the 30th power.

    2nd - Every amino acid has a distinct mirror image of itself, one left-handed version or L-form and one right-handed version or D-form. These mirror-image forms are called optical isomers. In nature the right-handed and left-handed isomers occur in roughly equal frequency but functioning proteins will only tolerate left-handed amino acids. The probability of randomly attaining only L-form amino acids in a peptide chain is roughly one chance in 10 to the 30th power.

    3rd - The amino acids of functioning proteins need to link in a very specific sequence. There are 20 biologically occurring amino acids so the probability of getting a specific amino acid at the right spot in the chain is 1 in 20. Now even if we assume some of the slots along the chain can tolerate several different amino acids, the probability of the functional sequencing is roughly 1 chance in 10 to the 65th power. If we factor in the peptide bonding and using only the L-forms, the probability of attaining a functional protein by chance is roughly 1 in 10 the 125th power.

    Obtaining functionally sequenced bio-macro-molecules using the random and mindless process of natural selection is in the words of Ilya Prigogine (1977 Nobel prize in Chemistry) "vanishingly small . . . even on the scale of . . . billions of years." And he was being polite.

    The chances of a single functional protein coming into existence using a random mindless process are the about the same as a chimp with a typewriter randomly typing out the entire works of Shakespeare, the 1st time through, without any spelling errors. Now I don’t know about you, but I personally find it hard to imagine a chimp randomly typing a coherent sentence, let alone an entire volume. I just can't seem to muster up that kind of blind faith.

    The Darwinian macro-evolutionists conveniently ignore Darwin’s own words - “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”

    Tomorrow, I’ll take a closer look at the lowly ameba, the simple single celled organism that is conveniently located at the beginning of the evolutional tree of life and is responsible for all of the complexity we see around us today. A simple little creature, who’s DNA contains enough information (instructions) to fill 1,000 sets of the encyclopedia Britannica.
    Last edited by ksquared; 11-30-2005 at 12:23 AM. Reason: brind to blind, the perberbial spelling error and fixed the links

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  8. #133
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Intelligent Design: Is it just "smoke and mirrors" ...?

    I would like to respond to the post just above by ksquared, which you may open in a new browser window for reference by clicking on this URL:
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=132

    ID (ID: Intelligent Biological Design) theorists have brought the microscopic structures known as cilia and flagella to center stage in arguments that put forward the idea of "irreducible (biological) complexity", and how that (in ID's view) negates the evolutionist thinking of the Neo-Darwinists.

    Just to recap, I would like to repeat the diagram that I posted previously in this thread, this time captioned exactly as it was in its original context:


    Ultrastructure of Cilia and Flagella

    WRT ksquared's latest post, I wouldn't know a "peptide bond" if White Sox pitcher Freddy "Nightmare on Elm Street" Garcia ...


    Freddy Garcia. Stephen Jay Gould, the celebrated Harvard University professor and Neo-Darwinist "supreme", loved to contemplate baseball and analyze it statistically. He wrote at length about the game.

    ... threw one too far inside and hit me with it; nevertheless, I would like to offer some comments from a Neo-Darwinist about the ID concept of irreducible biological complexity:
    Most of us are vaguely familiar with [the tenets of Neo-Darwinism], which state roughly that from random mutations and recombinations in the replication of an organism's genome, new traits can emerge, that the process of natural selection causes organisms with beneficial new traits to survive and replicate, and that from the accumulation of more new traits over a long period of time new species will form. This is how the many varied species on earth [evolved, or] came to be ...

    ID proponents claim that some traits are too complex, "irreducibly complex," to have emerged by the processes of random mutation and natural selection.

    For example, the flagellum is an appendage some bacteria have sticking out that allows them to swim. It is sort of like a microscopic rotating paddle. Flagella are composed of around 30 protein subunits from different genes that work together like a machine to create motion.

    If we delete just one of the genes for a subunit, the whole thing can stop working. This is how they determine it is "irreducible."

    Since the parts don't work separately, ID proponents say, for Darwinian evolution have created the system, there would have to have been numerous mutations all at one time, because natural selection wouldn't select an incomplete system that doesn't yet work. But, since the system has so many parts, it simply couldn't have evolved from mutation all at once ...

    [But] their examples of "irreducible complexity" are in fact reducible. The bacterial flagellum is the most frequent example cited by ID proponents.

    The 30 or so protein components do need each other to make a functioning flagellum. However, they didn't need to evolve together, as ID people claim, to be selected by evolution.

    The question is whether fewer than the 30 subunits of the flagellum could have had any other function. By comparing gene sequences for similarity with computers, we can see that the answer is clearly "yes."

    The pore-forming base of the flagellar structure is very similar to the base of the type III secretion system, which allows many bad bacteria, like Salmonella, for example, to infect host cells.

    Other parts of the flagellar structure are also similar to the sex-pilus (yes, bacteria can have "sex" too), that allows conjugation and gene transfer.

    In Actinobacillus, an operon of just seven genes, and only three with homology to flagella and secretion system genes, forms its own rudimentary secretion system, dubbed the tad operon. This bacteria lives in your mouth and is mostly responsible for making the slime that forms on your teeth when you don't brush. Without the secretion system, it can't make slime.

    In fact, an even more rudimentary homologous secretion system, with just four genes, is found in many other bacteria (including the Mycobacteria we study in my lab).

    Irrefutably, the complexity of the flagellum is reducible. The ID people will probably go on to think of new "irreducible" examples of complexity, and the real scientists with some free time and a blog will reduce those as well.
    credit: http://barometer.orst.edu/vnews/disp.../428385ad0100b


    Quote Originally Posted by ksquared
    Every amino acid has a distinct mirror image of itself, one left-handed version or L-form and one right-handed version or D-form. These mirror-image forms are called optical isomers. In nature the right-handed and left-handed isomers occur in roughly equal frequency but functioning proteins will only tolerate left-handed amino acids. The probability of randomly attaining only L-form amino acids in a peptide chain is roughly one chance in 10 to the 30th power.
    Here's a Neo-Darwinist, posting or publishing under the subject title "The Left Hand of Darwin", who observes that "physical" processes (i.e., non-biological chemical processes) are actually observed to produce more left-handed or L-form molecular products, than right-handed or R-form molecular products. He goes on to explain why Neo-Darwinists find it very plausible, and not the least bit extraordinary, that life on Earth has evolved in such a way that living proteins are composed exclusively of left-handed or L-form amino acids. Since the article is very brief and fairly readable, even to the laymen (and laywomen) among us, I won't try to summarize or paraphrase any of it. Here is the URL:
    http://www.pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000295.html


    As he's done before, enterprising RinselNews™ science reporter Rinselberg (also an OptiBoard member) asked the widely published and well known Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theorist Robert Trivers for his reaction to the national wave of interest in the ideas of ID (ID: Intelligent Biological Design). Professor Trivers, ever the ardent Neo-Darwinist, offered a cautionary message to all who may hear or read the arguments put forth by advocates of ID:


    Check your PC speaker loudness control and CLICK on the audio icon (above) to download a brief audio clip with Robert Trivers: It's a short mp3 file on a fast server, so if you have DSL or broadband Internet, this download will be fast!


    Rinselberg has posted previously on the topics of Neo-Darwinism and Intelligent (Biological) Design Theory, and also on Theology, via:

    Post title: Lowly cilia may have Neo-Darwinists singing a brand new tune ...
    Subject: Posits a Neo-Darwinist response to the ID theory of "irreducible biological complexity"
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=129

    Post title: serendipity
    Subject: Latest observations of endosymbiosis - a powerful Neo-Darwinian "bullet"?
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...8&postcount=64

    Post title: RinselNews™ - Fair and Balanced
    Subject: Brief discussion of ID (Intelligent Design) and well known ID theorist Michael Behe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=265

    Post title: Fossil evidence for macroevolution
    Subject: Discusses transitional evolutionary forms in the fossil record from a Neo-Darwinist viewpoint.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=237

    Post title: Deism and the Big Bang
    Subject: Responds to ksquared's discourse concerning the Big Bang theory of the origins of the observable universe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=161

    Post title: A Neo-Darwinist speaks
    Subject: Comments on the possible natural evolution of human morality and links to a profile of the widely published Neo-Darwinist Robert Trivers.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...3&postcount=59



    OptiBoard member rinselberg describes how he's carved his own personalized cyberspace on the Web under the mock umbrella tradename rinselberg™.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=217
    Last edited by rinselberg; 12-01-2005 at 07:45 AM.

  9. #134
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Ksquared: “it’s the quality of the complexities that determine whether something is irreducible”

    How come, surley if it is irreducible it is irreducible, regardless of complexity



    Ksquared: Most scientists will agree life came into existence a long time ago


    True

    Ksquared: but the origin of life question isn’t about the “when”. The question that needs to be answered is the “how”.


    When doesn’t bother me, but it might bother Christians or Neo creationists


    Ksquared: Invoking the mutation process is also purely speculative


    A lot less speculative and a lot more substantiated than the ID argument. Scientists have made a very reasonable explanation of the mutation process that has lead to the formation of Cilia


    Ksquared: Especially when most scientists know that mutations rarely produce an increase in function. More often than not, the changes they cause are harmful, instead of beneficial.


    That is a very good argument for natural selection!

    Ksquared: Using mutations to explain how something came into existence is even more problematic when there are multiple genes and functions involved. All of which would need to mutate simultaneously and without interfering with any of the original function in order to produce any added benefit.


    Howcome? Do they have to mutate simultaneously? Perhaps one strain mutates in one way, and a second in another, and when they combine the result is something between the two?

    Ksqaured: Opps, I'm afraid you did. Proteins are at the very heart of IC argument and one of the causes for the current crisis in materialistic evolutionary thinking. And not only is the irreducible complexity of the proteins an inconvenient problem for evolutionists,


    Which current crisis in materialistic evolutionary thinking are you referring too? Scientists have been trying to find an irreducible protein, and haven’t managed it yet

    Ksqaured: DNA presents an even more perplexing issue. DNA is not only complex, it also contains a specific message (the instructions for building the proteins), and its very existence creates a chicken-egg dilemma because DNA relies on proteins for its production but proteins rely on DNA for their production. So which came first, proteins or DNA?


    That is a very simplistic way of putting it, and a red herring. You cannot look at very complex DNA, which has had millions of years of evolution, and equally complex proteins, with millions of years of evolution, and say that “today” one relies on the other for existence, and proffer that as an argument that all the way through the evolutionary process, that was mutually exclusively always true


    Ksqaured: Proteins are the building blocks of life, performing all of the jobs inside the cell except for storing the genetic information. Composed of long chains of chemical units called amino acids, the amino acids are like an alphabet of sorts. If the letters (amino acids) are arranged correctly you’ll get meaningful text (functional proteins). If not, you get gibberish (a non functional protein if it even forms at all). If the text is coherent you’ll have meaningful sentences (cilia).



    That is true

    Ksqaured: The sequencing of the amino acids in the chain determines the shape and function of the protein. Once the chain is complete, the amino acids collapse back on themselves forming an architecture that’s pre-programmed by the order of the amino acids. If the amino acids are sequenced correctly, the chain will fold into a functional protein.

    There are 30,000 distinct types of proteins, each containing a different combination of the 20 amino acids. Some of the chains are hundreds of units long.



    That is true

    Ksqaured: Here’s a quick look at some of the difficulties a protein 100 amino acids long would encounter in order for it to be created by random chance and natural selection.

    1st – The amino acids in living tissue must use a peptide bond to connect with the other amino acids in the chain. Other types of chemical bonds exist in nature but only a peptide can be used to connect the amino acids. In nature, only half of the possible chemical bonds are peptides. The probability of building a chain where all of the linkages involve peptide bonds is roughly one chance in 10 to the 30th power.


    That is untrue. There might be 10 to the 30th power possible mutations, but that doesn’t mean that is the chance of the mutation happening like that is a fact. Please refer to my quote at the end of this thread about “dice rolling” which quite simply and eloquently explains the flaw in the maths here


    Ksqaured: 2nd - Every amino acid has a distinct mirror image of itself, one left-handed version or L-form and one right-handed version or D-form. These mirror-image forms are called optical isomers. In nature the right-handed and left-handed isomers occur in roughly equal frequency but functioning proteins will only tolerate left-handed amino acids. The probability of randomly attaining only L-form amino acids in a peptide chain is roughly one chance in 10 to the 30th power.



    Please refer to my quote at the end of this thread about “dice rolling”

    Ksqaured: 3rd - The amino acids of functioning proteins need to link in a very specific sequence. Ksqaured: There are 20 biologically occurring amino acids so the probability of getting a specific amino acid at the right spot in the chain is 1 in 20. Now even if we assume some of the slots along the chain can tolerate several different amino acids, the probability of the functional sequencing is roughly 1 chance in 10 to the 65th power. If we factor in the peptide bonding and using only the L-forms, the probability of attaining a functional protein by chance is roughly 1 in 10 the 125th power.

    Obtaining functionally sequenced bio-macro-molecules using the random and mindless process of natural selection is in the words of Ilya Prigogine (1977 Nobel prize in Chemistry) "vanishingly small . . . even on the scale of . . . billions of years." And he was being polite.

    The chances of a single functional protein coming into existence using a random mindless process are the about the same as a chimp with a typewriter randomly typing out the entire works of Shakespeare, the 1st time through, without any spelling errors. Now I don’t know about you, but I personally find it hard to imagine a chimp randomly typing a coherent sentence, let alone an entire volume. I just can't seem to muster up that kind of blind faith.



    Please refer to my quote at the end of this thread about “dice rolling” This is the plain faced lie proffered by proponents of ID – that they take a situation with say 60 variants, and then say that there are 60! (That is 60*60*60 … 60 times over) chances of that happening by chance. What they choose to ignore is the process of natural selection – read my post about the dice again to really understand the maths (simply)


    Regarding the chimp – please see my earlier post about camouflage, which really is an example of the dice, but with a task attached to the maths


    For reference – my previous post about dice:


    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    While we are on the subject of dice, and numbers lets consider DNA
    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1


    The probability of assembling the 241 amino acids in a precise predetermined sequence by chance is



    Probability = ~10-313



    Pro-ID debaters would like us to think that the Probability = ~10-313 is so big that there is no chance that ever happened on its own. Lets consider a long chain of DNA and use dice to repersent the pairings





    If you had 65 dice and needed to roll all sixes, here are some of the approaches you could take

    Method 1) Roll all the dice and see if you got all sixes. If not roll them all again.

    The odds of rolling 65 sixes in a single roll is one chance in 3.8x1050. This is near impossible. At best, you’re going to be rolling for a very long time. This is the classic Pro-ID standpoint



    Method 2) Roll one die. If it is not a six, roll it again, otherwise roll the next die. Continue until you have all sixes. You can expect to complete this in about 390 tries.



    Method 3) Roll all 65 and keep the sixes. Roll the remaining, again keeping the sixes. Continue until you have all sixes. You would achieve the 65 sixes in about 29 tries. You could do this in a matter of minutes.



    Method 4) Roll some of the dice, keep most of the sixes. Roll some of the remaining dice, possibly including a few of the sixes. Continue until you have all sixes. In terms of time required, this approach is somewhere in between 2 and 3. This is the Darwinist evoloution standpoint




    One more thing.. you ought to have a think about: pseudocilia – if you think that isn’t a “step on the way", or a reduction of cilia you are pulling the woolly hat of ID over your head

    Also read my post about Snowflakes, which if you apply a ID logic are intellegently designed too

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    THAT was a nice, easy read. I think I'll go read Goldilocks and the three bears now.

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    Here's a simple summary of what ksquared is talking about:

    The divine fallacy, or the argument from incredulity, is a species of non sequitur reasoning which goes something like this: I can't figure this out, so God must have done it. Or, This is amazing; therefore, God did it. Or, I can't think of any other explanation; therefore, God did it. Or, this is just too weird; so, God is behind it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartus
    Here's a simple summary of what ksquared is talking about:
    I don't buy that. Only a fool would think such a thing. Saying "I don't understand it so it must be God" is as foolish as saying "I can't see God so he must not exist."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    I don't buy that. Only a fool would think such a thing. Saying "I don't understand it so it must be God" is as foolish as saying "I can't see God so he must not exist."
    There are so many fools out there. Thats a fact

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    deleted - multiple post

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    Master OptiBoarder spartus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    I don't buy that. Only a fool would think such a thing. Saying "I don't understand it so it must be God" is as foolish as saying "I can't see God so he must not exist."
    No, your example is just about a perfect non sequitur, which is closely related. However, since it's you, Rimmy, on reflection, I think it's wiser to chalk it up under "extremely simplistic reasoning"ą. But it's cute of you to try and drag the topic back to where you're comfortable.

    The entire ID/astrology argument that's rapidly cooling off as something that people who want to be taken seriously realize that it's, for lack of a better term, dumb, is fundamentally based on the argument from incredulity: Since we don't know what started life/evolution/whatever, it must be beyond our understanding, so it's easier to attribute it to a higher power than try to explain it rationally. In this aim, people like ksquared find abstract problems like cilia, then obfuscate their way through what could loosely be called reasoning: Anyone who claims "Most mutations are harmful and kill the mutated," must never have met anyone with red hair. Or known anyone with an autoimmune disorder. Or allergies. Or taken more than a casual look at the behavior of viruses. Or...I could go on, but I think you'll get the idea. A "mutation" is not always an extra arm growing out of your head. A great deal of them are actually fairly boring.

    ą: What that statement is saying is if A+B=C, therefore D, which is false. If you can't see God, you can't see God. To try and read more into it will always be fallacious, I mean, it could be that right when you looked, He stepped out for a sandwich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartus
    No, your example is just about a perfect non sequitur, which is closely related. However, since it's you, Rimmy, on reflection, I think it's wiser to chalk it up under "extremely simplistic reasoning"ą. But it's cute of you to try and drag the topic back to where you're comfortable.

    The entire ID/astrology argument that's rapidly cooling off as something that people who want to be taken seriously realize that it's, for lack of a better term, dumb, is fundamentally based on the argument from incredulity: Since we don't know what started life/evolution/whatever, it must be beyond our understanding, so it's easier to attribute it to a higher power than try to explain it rationally. In this aim, people like ksquared find abstract problems like cilia, then obfuscate their way through what could loosely be called reasoning: Anyone who claims "Most mutations are harmful and kill the mutated," must never have met anyone with red hair. Or known anyone with an autoimmune disorder. Or allergies. Or taken more than a casual look at the behavior of viruses. Or...I could go on, but I think you'll get the idea. A "mutation" is not always an extra arm growing out of your head. A great deal of them are actually fairly boring.

    ą: What that statement is saying is if A+B=C, therefore D, which is false. If you can't see God, you can't see God. To try and read more into it will always be fallacious, I mean, it could be that right when you looked, He stepped out for a sandwich.
    Ive also noticed that when you present a structured logical argument - the subject gets changed, or your argument is just ignored - that says to me that half of ID debate is just a load of hot air from those who trust thier cult in the face of reasoned logic

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartus
    No, your example is just about a perfect non sequitur, which is closely related. However, since it's you, Rimmy, on reflection, I think it's wiser to chalk it up under "extremely simplistic reasoning"ą. But it's cute of you to try and drag the topic back to where you're comfortable.
    ą: What that statement is saying is if A+B=C, therefore D, which is false. If you can't see God, you can't see God. To try and read more into it will always be fallacious, I mean, it could be that right when you looked, He stepped out for a sandwich.
    Spartus, are you this sarcastic in real life? You sound like you are dealing with some issues of low self-esteem so you need to put others down to overcompensate. Maybe you're a chronic underachiever and you find sarcasm helps to mask the real you. Whatever it is, I honestly wish you the best.

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    Way to prove QD right, Rimmy.

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    New fossil evidence for macroevolution: Birds from dinosaurs.

    This post includes an optional AUDIO segment: Supersax reprises the famous Charlie Parker standard "Ornithology". Recorded: 1975. Track length: 04:05. Source: RinselTunes™


    Charlie Parker. CLICK on the photo if you wish to play the audio segment that was selected for this post.



    An ultraviolet-induced fluorescence photograph of the new Archaeopteryx speciment shows its preserved bone substance, including feet that are turned like a dinosaur's.

    By Bjorn Carey
    Updated: 2:20 p.m. ET Dec. 1, 2005

    When it comes to feet, the earliest-known bird species had more in common with Velociraptors than cardinals.

    Modern bird feet have a hind toe that points backward and helps the birds perch on branches, power lines, and pirates' shoulders. And until a recent discovery of an extremely well-preserved skeleton of the earliest-known bird species, Archaeopteryx, scientists believed it too had a "perching toe."

    The new fossil, known as the "Thermopolis specimen," is incredibly well-preserved. It left clear impressions of its wing and tail feathers in the limestone it was encased in, and the skull is the best-preserved of all the 10 specimens ever discovered. But it may be the feet that prove to be the most important aspect of the find ...

    For the complete MSNBC report:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10283203/


    Rinselberg has posted previously on the topics of Neo-Darwinism and Intelligent (Biological) Design Theory, and also on Theology, via:

    Post title: Intelligent Design: Is it just "smoke and mirrors" ...?
    Subject: Neo-Darwinists critique the ID theory of "irreducible biological complexity"
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=133

    Post title: Lowly cilia may have Neo-Darwinists singing a brand new tune ...
    Subject: Posits a Neo-Darwinist response to the ID theory of "irreducible biological complexity"
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=129

    Post title: serendipity
    Subject: Latest observations of endosymbiosis - a powerful Neo-Darwinian "bullet"?
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...8&postcount=64

    Post title: RinselNews™ - Fair and Balanced
    Subject: Brief discussion of ID (Intelligent Design) and well known ID theorist Michael Behe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=265

    Post title: Fossil evidence for macroevolution
    Subject: Discusses transitional evolutionary forms in the fossil record from a Neo-Darwinist viewpoint.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=237

    Post title: Deism and the Big Bang
    Subject: Responds to ksquared's discourse concerning the Big Bang theory of the origins of the observable universe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=161

    Post title: A Neo-Darwinist speaks
    Subject: Comments on the possible natural evolution of human morality and links to a profile of the widely published Neo-Darwinist Robert Trivers.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...3&postcount=59



    OptiBoard member rinselberg describes how he's carved his own personalized cyberspace on the Web under the mock umbrella tradename rinselberg™.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=217
    Last edited by rinselberg; 12-03-2005 at 08:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spartus
    Way to prove QD right, Rimmy.
    And way to prove ME right, Mr. Smartypants

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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    An ultraviolet-induced fluorescence photograph of the new Archaeopteryx speciment shows its preserved bone substance, including feet that are turned like a dinosaur's.

    By Bjorn Carey
    Updated: 2:20 p.m. ET Dec. 1, 2005

    When it comes to feet, the earliest-known bird species had more in common with Velociraptors than cardinals.

    Modern bird feet have a hind toe that points backward and helps the birds perch on branches, power lines, and pirates' shoulders. And until a recent discovery of an extremely well-preserved skeleton of the earliest-known bird species, Archaeopteryx, scientists believed it too had a "perching toe."

    The new fossil, known as the "Thermopolis specimen," is incredibly well-preserved. It left clear impressions of its wing and tail feathers in the limestone it was encased in, and the skull is the best-preserved of all the 10 specimens ever discovered. But it may be the feet that prove to be the most important aspect of the find ...
    Most scientists dont have a problem with macro-evoloutiuon, it is only the ID camp, who c\laim they do. Most serious scientists dismiss ID and other offshoot constructs such as irriducability as a a diversion to the real science that is going on, such as what is reported in this article

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    Master OptiBoarder spartus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    And way to prove ME right, Mr. Smartypants
    I'd ask what you're talking about, but I don't think you know either.

  23. #148
    Master OptiBoarder spartus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    Most scientists dont have a problem with macro-evoloutiuon, it is only the ID camp, who c\laim they do. Most serious scientists dismiss ID and other offshoot constructs such as irriducability as a a diversion to the real science that is going on, such as what is reported in this article
    Besides, macroevolution (AKA speciation) has already been proven, as I detailed here. There are a couple more examples here.

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    NOMA: An Rx for the faithful from Stephen Jay Gould


    "Body and Soul" featuring Thelonius Monk

    Track length 03:05 source: RinselTunes™
    CLICK on the record icon (above), if you wish to play the audio segment that was selected for this post.

    Catholics [may] believe whatever science [determines] about the evolution of the human body, so long as they [accept] that, at some time of his choosing, God has infused the soul into [us].
    In 1997, Stephen Jay Gould said that this was his understanding of Pope Pius XII in the 1950 Vatican encyclical Humani Generis. The reference is to Catholics, but it seems to me that this could be a very attractive proposition for anyone with faith in God (god or gods; goddess or goddesses) that is also favorably impressed with the scientific credibility of Darwinism. On the other hand, atheists (agnostics ... deists ...?) could also accept it with just a quiet wink and a nod about the "soul" part.

    So, could more of us find common ground, or at least draw closer together in our beliefs, if we all went this a'way?

    In the same essay, Gould coined the acronym NOMA for his concept of science and religion as "nonoverlapping magesteria":
    The net of science covers the empirical universe: what is it made of (fact) and why does it work this way (theory). The net of religion extends over questions of moral meaning and value. These two magisteria do not overlap, nor do they encompass all inquiry (consider, for starters, the magisterium of art and the meaning of beauty). To cite the arch cliches, we get the age of rocks, and religion retains the rock of ages; we study how the heavens go, and they determine how to go to heaven.
    The excerpts are from an essay by the celebrated Neo-Darwinist Stephen Jay Gould, first published in 1997 under the title "Nonoverlapping Magesteria", in the scientific journal Natural History. The complete essay is available online at the Unofficial Stephen Jay Gould Archive.


    rinselberg has posted previously on Neo-Darwinism Vs. Intelligent (Biological) Design, and on Theology, via:

    Post title: New fossil evidence for macroevolution: Birds from dinosaurs.
    Subject: New fossil reveals a bird-like creature with a dinosaur-like foot.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=144
    Updated with a new audio segment.

    Post title: Intelligent Design: Is it just "smoke and mirrors" ...?
    Subject: Neo-Darwinists critique the ID theory of "irreducible biological complexity"
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=133

    Post title: Lowly cilia may have Neo-Darwinists singing a brand new tune ...
    Subject: Posits a Neo-Darwinist response to the ID theory of "irreducible biological complexity"
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=129

    Post title: serendipity
    Subject: Latest observations of endosymbiosis - a powerful Neo-Darwinian "bullet"?
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...8&postcount=64

    Post title: RinselNews™ - Fair and Balanced
    Subject: Brief discussion of ID (Intelligent Design) and well known ID theorist Michael Behe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=265

    Post title: Fossil evidence for macroevolution
    Subject: Discusses transitional evolutionary forms in the fossil record from a Neo-Darwinist viewpoint.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=237

    Post title: Deism and the Big Bang
    Subject: Responds to ksquared's discourse concerning the Big Bang theory of the origins of the observable universe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=161

    Post title: A Neo-Darwinist speaks
    Subject: Comments on the possible natural evolution of human morality and links to a profile of the widely published Neo-Darwinist Robert Trivers.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...3&postcount=59



    OptiBoard member rinselberg describes how he's carved his own personalized cyberspace on the Web under the mock umbrella tradename rinselberg™.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=217
    Last edited by rinselberg; 12-12-2005 at 01:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg

    "Body and Soul" featuring Thelonius Monk
    Track length 03:05source: RinselTunes™
    Monk is "the man" allong side Bird, Blakey and all the other Hatters. I recon Rinsel knows what I mean by "what sort of hat are you wearing"

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