Officials from around the world cannot scientifically explain what is happening in Medjugorje. It's said that six villiagers have been receiving regular visits from the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, or "apparitions." Countless unbelievers and physically or mentally afflicted, have been converted and healed. How do you explain the phenomenon?
science could not explain colour blindness a few hundred years ago
"Colorblindness"
That's only because of technology. Science has the technology today to detect when someone is lying. These people are not lying.
refer to my last answer - on the narrow subject of "why cant science xyz" my answer was sufficient
Not sure what you mean there. Are you saying that anytime science can't explain something it's just because we don't have the technology yet?
thats not entirley unreasonableOriginally Posted by Chairtime
The occult. Read some Dave Hunt. You will be enlightened.
Maybe not. But I think it gives scientists too much credit. They are just people like you and me. Even Einstein said he was not really that smart, he just kept thinking about problems longer than other people.
Anyway I wanted to discuss the specifics about Medjugorje more than just abstract debating. Are you familiar with what's happening over there? What have you heard? What do you believe?
What do you mean, the occult? You think Medjugorje is a place of evil?
Seems a great place to be... Here are the views of the local bishop types....
Statement from the Chancellor of the Diocese of Mostar
On May 16, 1997, Don Ante Luburic, Chancellor of the Diocese of Mostar, stated that, "Medjugorje has become a place of Religious disorder, disobedience, and anti-ecclesiastical activity."
The Full Text of the Chancellor's Statement
Declaration of the Bishop of Mostar Concerning Medjugorje, July 15, 1987
My heart goes out to the Bishop of Mostar. He is suffering terribly under the attacks and false accusations of the Medjugorje followers. Moreover, his authority is continually challenges by the disobedience of clergy in league with Medjugorje and the continued disobedient promotion of the heretical veiws of the Medjugorje followers
Why can't science explain it? Because it's not real.
In 1986, Vicka, (one of the visionaries from Medjugorje) suffering from increasingly painful headaches, was diagnosed as having an inoperable brain tumor and swelling of the joints which eventually resulted in high fevers and comas.
On Febuary 25th, 1988 the Blessed Virgin, instructed Vicka to write three letters: to Father Janko Bubalo, her confessor; to the Bishop's Commission investigating the Apparitions; and to the priests in residence at the Rectory of St James, Medjugorje. These letters were sealed and delivered to the above-named persons. The instructions were not to open the envelope.
On September 25 1988 (two months and three weeks after her 24th birthday) Vicka asked the recipients of the sealed letters to open them in the presence of two witnesses. Each of the letters written seven months before, contained the same information: Vicka's illness was God's gift to her, not a punishment. It was accepted voluntarily, and its purpose was to help heal the illness of sinners. Her sacrifice would be completed on September 25th; on that date she would be healed of her illness</FONT>.At this time Vicka underwent tests and the brain tumor was gone.
You almost convince me with that detailed, scientific answer.
A Lady from heaven gives a piece of paper to a girl in Medjugorje, (Mirjana). The paper contains secrets of future events. When the scientific community heard about the paper they asked to study it. Having studied it, linguistic experts from around the world say there is no known language. The paper is also carbon tested to determine age and substance. Scientists are unable to determine the age of the paper. They concluded that the parchment is made of an unknown substance.
How about cons, tricks, lies, and self-deception. Maybe even the palcebo effect. Better?;)
Sorry Spexvet. That's already been ruled out by people who are even smarter than you.
RESEARCH ON THE VISIONARIES
French-Italian scientific theological commission “On the extraordinary events that are taking place in Medjugorje”
The international French-Italian scientific theological commission “on the extraordinary events that are taking place in Medjugorje” examined the apparitions of Medjugorje the most competently and the most expertly. The assembly of seventeen renowned natural scientists, doctors, psychiatrists and theologians in their research came to a 12 point conclusion on January 14, 1986 in Paina near Milan.
1. On the basis of the psychological tests, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible with certainty to exclude fraud and deception.
2. On the basis of the medical examinations, tests and clinical observations etc, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude pathological hallucinations.
3. On the basis of the results of previous researches for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude a purely natural interpretation of these manifestations.
4. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude that these manifestations are of the preternatural order i.e. under demonic influence.
5. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, there is a correspondence between these manifestations and those that are usually described in mystical theology.
6. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, it is possible to speak of spiritual advances and advances in the theological and moral virtues of the visionaries, from the beginning of these manifestations until today.
7. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, it is possible to exclude teaching or behavior of the visionaries that would be in clear contradiction to Christian faith and morals.
8. On the basis of information or observations that can be documented, it is possible to speak of good spiritual fruits in people drawn into the supernatural activity of these manifestations and in people favorable to them.
9. After more than four years, the tendencies and different movements that have been generated through Medjugorje, in consequence of these manifestations, influence the people of God in the Church in complete harmony with Christian doctrine and morals.
10. After more than four years, it is possible to speak of permanent and objective spiritual fruits of movements generated through Medjugorje.
11. It is possible to affirm that all good and spiritual undertakings of the Church, which are in complete harmony with the authentic magisterium of the Church, find support in the events in Medjugorje.
12. Accordingly, one can conclude that after a deeper examination of the protagonists, facts, and their effects, not only in the local framework, but also in regard to the responsive chords of the Church in general, it is well for the Church to recognize the supernatural origin and, thereby, the purpose of the events in Medjugorje.
So far it is the most conscientious and the most complete research of the Medjugorje phenomena, and, for that very reason, it is the most positive that has yet been said about it on a scientific-theological level.
French team of experts headed by Mr. Henri Joyeux
A French team of experts headed by Mr. Henri Joyeux also undertook a very serious work of examination of the visionaries. Employing the most modern equipment and expertise, it examined the internal reactions of the visionaries before, during, and after the apparitions. Likewise, the synchronization of their ocular, auditory, cardiac, and cerebral reactions. The results of that commission were very significant. They showed that the object of observation is external to the visionaries, and that any external manipulation or mutual agreement between the visionaries is excluded. The results with individual electro-encephalograms and other reactions are collected and elaborated in a special book (H. Joyeux - R. Laurentin, Etudes medicales et scientifique sur les Apparitions de Medjugorje, Paris 1986).
The results of the last mentioned commission confirmed the conclusions of the international commission and, for their part, they proved that the apparitions, to which the visionaries testify, are a phenomenon that surpasses modern science and that all points toward some other level of happening.
INSTITUTE FOR THE FIELD LIMITS OF SCIENCE (IGW) – INNSBRUCK
CENTRE FOR STUDY AND RESEARCH ON PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGY OF STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS – MILANO
EUROPEAN SCHOOL OF HYPNOTIC PSYCHOTHERAPY AMISI OF MILAN
PARAPSYCHOLOGY CENTER OF BOLOGNA.
At the request of the Parish Office of Međugorje, psycho-physiological and psycho-diagnostic research was carried out on the subjects who since 1981 are known as the visionaries' group of Međugorje.
The research was carried out in four sessions:
- The first research was carried out on April 22-23, 1998 at the Casa Incontri Cristiani (House of Christian Encounters) in Capiago Intimiano (Como), which is operated by the Dehonian Fathers. On this occasion the examined were: Ivan Dragićević, Marija Pavlović-Lunetti, and Vicka Ivanković.
- The second research was carried out from on July 23-24, 1998 in Međugorje. Examined were Mirjana Soldo-Dragićević, Vicka Ivanković and Ivanka Elez-Ivanković.
- The third research, only psycho-diagnostic, was conducted by psychologist Lori Bradvica on Jakov Čolo with the collaboration of Fr. Ivan Landeka.
- The fourth psycho-physiological registration was conducted December 11, 1998 in the same House of Christian Encounters in Capiago Intimiano (Como) with Marija Pavlović.
The incompleteness of the psycho-physiological investigation was caused by the partial cooperation of some subjects who did not undergo what the working group had expected, due either to their family or social obligations or to their personal reluctance, even though Fr. Slavko Barbarić and Fr. Ivan Landeka encouraged them to do it, without any influences on the programs of the working group called "Međugorje 3", because, apart from individual medical or psychological investigation, prior to this research two groups had operated: the first a group of French doctors in 1984, and the second a group of Italian doctors in 1985. In addition three European psychiatrists in 1986 carried out only psychiatric-diagnostic investigations.
The following collaborated in the "Međugorje 3" work group:
- Fr. Andreas Resch, theologian and psychologist from Institute for the Field Limits of Science (IGW) - Innsbruck; General coordinator.
- Dr. Giorgio Gagliardi, medical psycho-physiologist from the Centre for Study and Research on Psychophysiology of States of Consciousness - Milano; member of board of European School of Hypnotic Psychotherapy AMISI, Milan and of the Parapsychology Centre of Bologna.
- Dr. Marco Margnelli, medical psycho-physiologist and neuro-physiologist from the Centre for Study and Research on States of Consciousness - Milano, member of the professors' board of the European School AMISI, Milan;
- Dr. Mario Cigada, psychotherapist and oculist, Milano, member of the professorial board of the European School AMISI, Milano;
- Dr. Luigi Ravagnati, neurologist; assistant for neuro-surgery at the University of Milan, member of the professors' board of the European School of Hypnotic Psychotherapy AMISI, Milan
- Dr. Marianna Bolko, psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, instructor for specialization in psychotherapy at the University of Bologna.
- Dr. Virginio Nava, psychiatrist; head doctor at Como Psychiatric Hospital.
- Dr. Rosanna Constantini, psychologist, instructor at Auxilium University, Rome.
- Dr. Fabio Alberghina, medical internist.
- Dr. Giovanni Li Rosi, gynaecologist at Varese Hospital and specialist for hypnotic psychotherapy, AMISI, Milan.
- Dr. Gaetano Perriconi, internist at FBF Hospital in Erbi/Como.
- Prof. Massimo Pagani, medical internist, professor of internal medicine at the University of Milan.
- Dr. Gabriella Raffaelli, scientific secretary;
- Fiorella Gagliardi, secretary, community assistant.
The following tests were used on the subjects to investigate their actual psychophysical and psychological situation:
- Complete case history,
- Medical case history,
- MMPI, EPI, MHQ; Tree test, Person test, Raven Matrixes, Rorschach Test, Hand test, Valsecchi truth and lie detection test;
- Neurological visit,
- Computerized polygraph (skin electrical activity; peripheral cardiac capillary and heartbeat activities; skeletal and diaphragmatic pneumography) during the apparitional experience, during mediated hypnotic recall of the same apparitional experience.
- Holter's arterial pressure dynamic registration.
- Holter's electro-cardiographic /respiratory dynamic registration.
- Pupillary reflexes (photomotor) and winking reflex
- Video tapes
- Photographs.
For all the tests performed the visionaries made their decision with full freedom, readiness and collaboration.
The results from these psychological-diagnostic investigations show that:
During the period since age 17, from the beginning of their apparitional experiences, the subjects do not exhibit any kind of pathological symptoms like trance interference, disassociate interference and loss of reality interference.
All subjects investigated, however, exhibited symptoms that are related to justified stress that occurs through very high levels of exogenous and endogenous stimulation as a consequence of every day life.
From their personal testimonies it follows that the initial and subsequent altered state of consciousness occurs due to their unusual experiences which they themselves recognize and define and still continuously recognize as a vision/apparition of Our Lady.
The psychophysical investigation was carried out on four states of consciousness:
- Waking state;
- Altered state of consciousness (hypnosis with investigation of the state of ecstasy);
- State of visualization of mental images;
- Altered state of consciousness (defined as the ecstasy of apparition).
The aim was to investigate whether the ecstatic state of apparition, already registered in 1985 by the Italian doctors working group, still continues to be present or has undergone changes. In addition it was desired to investigate potential coincidence/divergence with other states off consciousness such as guided visualization or hypnosis.
Results of the investigation carried out demonstrate that the ecstatic phenomenology can be compared to the one from 1985 with somewhat less intensity.
The hypnotically induced state of ecstasy did not cause the phenomenology of spontaneous experiences and therefore it can be deduced that the ecstatic states of spontaneous apparitions were not states of hypnotic trance.
Capiago Intimiano, December 12, 1998
Undersigned:
Fr. Andreas Resch, Dr. Giorgio Gagliardi, Dr. Marco Margnelli, Dr. Marianna Bolko, Dr. Gabriella Raffaelli.
Photo of the visionaries during an apparition.
Obviously a puupet study by Christians. I didn't bother to read any further.
For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe in God, no explanation will suffice.
Are they looking at Elvis? Why take a picture of them looking at an apparition? Take a picture of the apparition! Duh!Photo of the visionaries during an apparition.
How do you know it's not Satan?
In other words "please don't make me think":p
its odd - because i looked up the other published work for the mentioned respected institutes....I
NSTITUTE FOR THE FIELD LIMITS OF SCIENCE (IGW) – INNSBRUCK
CENTRE FOR STUDY AND RESEARCH ON PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGY OF STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS – MILANO
EUROPEAN SCHOOL OF HYPNOTIC PSYCHOTHERAPY AMISI OF MILAN
PARAPSYCHOLOGY CENTER OF BOLOGNA.
and between all 4 institutes it seems they have only done one piece of work that anyone particularlary mentions - titled RESEARCH ON THE VISIONARIES
seems to me to be a crock of poo
I have past experience in dealing with this sort of hype (something to do with translations) - look up Peter Hubner - Musical medicine preparations - another crock of poo - all backed up with very long worded institutes, and the miss-placed texts of great philosopers and scientists
As a matter of interest - they all linguistically have the same trait too - repetitive sentance structure eg:
1. On the basis of the psychological tests, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible with certainty to exclude fraud and deception.
2. On the basis of the medical examinations, tests and clinical observations etc, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude pathological hallucinations.
3. On the basis of the results of previous researches for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude a purely natural interpretation of these manifestations.
4. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude that these manifestations are of the preternatural order i.e. under demonic influence.
5. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, there is a correspondence between these manifestations and those that are usually described in mystical theology.
6. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, it is possible to speak of spiritual advances and advances in the theological and moral virtues of the visionaries, from the beginning of these manifestations until today.
7. On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, it is possible to exclude teaching or behavior of the visionaries that would be in clear contradiction to Christian faith and morals.
8. On the basis of information or observ
You're the one who doesn't want to think.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks