Who's brave?
Athiesm Vs Religion... let battle commence
Who's brave?
Bring it on !!
I thought getting a thread for this subject ought to get the many "off message" debates out of the other threads
So to begin. I am an Athiest. I dont believe in god. For me - I havent seen, experienced, or known a god to believe in. For me god is a figment of the immagination in the minds of the religious. I dont see why laws and government seem to be dictated to by religion
Here you go, QDO1:
Do you believe "there is no God", or do you "not believe in God"? Please be excruciatingly specific.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"- Karl Marx (I think). One of my favourite quotes. I'm always up for a controversial topic. My 2 favourites- Politics and RELIGION. I respect EVERYONE'S beliefs, however, I do NOT necessarily think they're all RIGHT. Ozzy Osbourne and his evil minion's of the famed Black Sabbath have had a great impact on MY belief's. I too, am a devout atheist. Unfortunately, since Bush's second term, the lines that separate church and state have become more and more blurry. That scares me like I scare an Evangelical Christian.
Hey, if you worship the Devil, and Satan believes in God (since he's met him many, many, many times..) why don't you?
As far as i am concerned there is no god for me to believe inOriginally Posted by drk
Ok, I will take that to mean you believe, rather certainly, that there is no God.
It seems like you are saying: "I've used my five senses, and integrated the whole thing in my head, and, nope, I don't see any evidence of God."
You are a "show me" kind of guy, right? You are a skeptic, a materialist, right? You are prepared to make statements of truth based on your senses and reason, right?
Heard from God. He sez he'll weigh in on this once he solves the more pesky "tastes great/less filling" controversy. Jeez, no rest for the weary I guess...:cheers:
Hey, CHM, don't you have a standing appointment to go flying around on your broom tonight? Better get dressed...:D
For the record:
I am Catholic and believe in God. I have never seen God but I have had some personal experiences that I cannot explain using an Encyclopedia Brittanica.
The fighting words:
I know God exists and I believe athiests are missing out on a large part of their existence. They live superficially.
Indeed I do. And you better hope I am in a more Treat than Trick mode!!
(Maniacal laughter here)
You need to close up shop as well: those razor blades aren't going to put themselves in the Milky Ways!!!!!;)
Hey! Who says atheists live superficially?? I happen to live a very full life, WELL below the surface.
Hypothetical question for you. If you found out that both God and Satan exist, whom would you worship?
It may be a full life, but full of what?
Just so we all know who is who, please respond using letter only.
a) I believe in God and Satan but worship God and reject Satan.
b) I believe in God and Satan but worship Satan and reject God.
c) I believe in God and Satan but worship neither.
d) I believe in and worship only God.
e) I believe in and worship only Satan.
f) I don't believe in or worship God or Satan.
g) I don't know what to believe.
Wow, I haven't been to OptiBoard lately (busy, busy, busy)... I just decided to drop by and see what's been going on, and this thread was the first thing I saw!
I guess God has a sense of humor (um, with respects to your view- that is, assuming there is a God and that He cares about OptiBoard or anything else that happens on our little sphere we call Earth).
:)
Anyway, I happen to believe in God. By way of definition, specifically the God who goes by various names (Yahweh, Jehovah, etc.) and who is worshipped by Judeo-Christians.
So to begin. I am an Athiest. I dont believe in god. For me - I havent seen, experienced, or known a god to believe in. For me god is a figment of the immagination in the minds of the religious.
This about sums up what will likely be our different view of the world, as it defines the a priori assumptions we will each make in our approach to any discussion of the divine. As mentioned, I believe in God. This belief comes from observation and experiences (therefore, it can probably be assumed that you and I have had a different set of experiences up to this point in life).
Since you believe in no divine power, I'm assuming you subscribe to the theory that the universe came into being through a great explosion called the "Big Bang." Of course, unless you are very creative, you probably have no data regarding the origin of the infintesimal speck of matter that predated this explosion. Likewise, I can offer no explanation as to the origin of God. I'm just attempting to note up front that the origin of the universe is something which cannot be absolutely accounted for by either an atheistic or religious approach.
Furthermore, I'll assume you believe in the theory of evolution to explain the presence of life on this planet. Since evolution is not observable or repeatable (the requirements for science to make a definitive statement), again we'll have to argue based on our assumptions. Likewise, although a proposed account of creation is posted in Genesis, I wasn't personally there and obviously cannot scientifically prove the accuracy of that account- so neither of us has an absolutely provable position here either.
That is a tremendously long-winded way of stating that we're back to what we each "believe" based on experience (which you were able to do in one sentence, my compliments). So, what experiences do I have that lead me to a conclusion which differs from your own?
First, I find myself unable to believe that the universe, this planet, life, etc. came into being by time and chance (perhaps I'm just not imaginative enough to think through the remoteness of how this could happen through chance). From the beginning, then, I admit that the origin of my travel toward a belief in God comes from the ordered nature of the universe and an inability to account for it otherwise (religion usually begins thus- the Greeks believed in religious forces behind lightning and all sorts of other nonsense).
Based on my assumption that "something" put us here, it seems improbable to me that that "something" would have no purpose behind going to all that trouble. Basically, it seems such an imaginative creator would have had a purpose and would have communicated that purpose. That belief resulted in an evaluation of my options. Most religions seem nice enough, but Christianity seems to make the most sense to me (perhaps because I was born in a country that is primarily Judeo-Christian, to parents that hold that faith- who knows?). Of course, I've done some study to validate my belief in this particular religion. The ultimate validation (for me) being that Jesus Christ obviously lived (according to both Biblical and secular accounts), his appearance seems to be in accordance with any number of earlier prophesies, and (to use a cliche) no one seems to be able to produce his body (which is pretty much the keystone of the Christian faith).
Furthermore, every day I believe I feel the guidance of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus before His departure from the earth (that's right, you're dealing with a real "wacko" here- after all, Paul says the faith is basically foolishness). I'd love to say I always heed and live by that guidance- fact is, I don't (in my belief system, that's called sin). I can't claim any particular "miracles" in my life that reaffirm this belief (although a lot of otherwise coincidental things have happened that- due to the a priori beliefs mentioned earlier- lead me to see these event as being a confirmation of my belief in God).
So there it is. I should mention that I also believe that religion is pretty much for the birds. True religion is loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself- according to the Bible, anyway. The rest of it is trappings that have arisen in man's attempt to assist people in believing (although with the trappings come an alarming number of unnecessary additions, distortions, and outright heresies). Furthermore, I beleive belief in God can only come through His reaching out to us (cf. several passages in the Bible). The Bible seems to indicate that not everyone will come to a belief in God (although Romans 1 claims that the necessary elements to believe are contained in nature itself).
So, other than stating that I do believe in God based on my own experiences, there is nothing I can offer by way of argument to claim that I'm right and you are wrong. As Keikergaard (sp?) claimed, it all boils down to a leap of faith. It is completely possible that you are absolutely correct- the world originated from an explosion, life evolved to the point it is today, and we'll all pass into oblivion soon enough with no consequences one way or the other. Likewise, it would seem I could also be correct in my beliefs- each of us can only go by our own observations.
One question I would ask, however. Why should an atheist submit to ANY law- religious or otherwise? That is, if we are all here by chance, it seems each of us should pretty much govern ourselves. Forget all the "living together in society" crap. After all, society- like religion- is just a vehicle of the weak (who are too feeble to make their own decisions and livelihood). I'm not even suggesting atheism is wrong- I'd just like to know what a world comprised solely of true atheists would look like (I think it would have some rather interesting characteristics). Religion has resulted in all sorts of historically documentable atrocities- so has atheism (e.g., the U.S.S.R. was an atheistic community).
Great thread topic!
PS- Um, put me down as an "a.)"
Pete Hanlin, ABOM
Vice President Professional Services
Essilor of America
http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74
a)
F) For Sure.
a)
Pete, great post, but I think you surpassed the 500 word limit. Its easier for the rest of us to keep it under the limit.
Pete, man, that was awesome.
Minor niggling difference: the faith "seems" like foolishness to the natural man.
Big, fat, difference, in line with Romans: A solid review of the body of evidence for all intents and purposes disproves evolution and shows that cosmology supports intelligent design. You know about Strobel's work, right?
drk, what makes you think evolution isn't part of the intelligent design?
Because evolution, by definition, says that life evolved from non-life, spontaneously, with absolutely no purpose, by random chance. That, at least, is the evolutionist's origin of life myth that they believe.
Not to be confused with the evolutionist's unproven and shaky theory as to why species exist. (Macroevolutionary theory)
Not to be confused with what you're probably thinking of: change over time. This is provable. (Microevolutionary theory)
Well then. That's preposterous.
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