Athiesm Vs Religion... let battle commence

**QDO1** · 10-31-2005, 02:17 PM

Who's brave?

**Chairtime** · 10-31-2005, 02:23 PM

Bring it on !!

**QDO1** · 10-31-2005, 02:31 PM

I thought getting a thread for this subject ought to get the many "off message" debates out of the other threads

So to begin. I am an Athiest. I dont believe in god. For me - I havent seen, experienced, or known a god to believe in. For me god is a figment of the immagination in the minds of the religious. I dont see why laws and government seem to be dictated to by religion

**drk** · 10-31-2005, 02:51 PM

Here you go, QDO1:

Do you believe "there is no God", or do you "not believe in God"? Please be excruciatingly specific.

**QDO1** · 10-31-2005, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Here you go, QDO1:

Do you believe "there is no God", or do you "not believe in God"? Please be excruciatingly specific.

As far as i am concerned there is no god for me to believe in

**drk** · 10-31-2005, 03:02 PM

Ok, I will take that to mean you believe, rather certainly, that there is no God.

It seems like you are saying: "I've used my five senses, and integrated the whole thing in my head, and, nope, I don't see any evidence of God."

You are a "show me" kind of guy, right? You are a skeptic, a materialist, right? You are prepared to make statements of truth based on your senses and reason, right?

**QDO1** · 11-01-2005, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Ok, I will take that to mean you believe, rather certainly, that there is no God.

It seems like you are saying: "I've used my five senses, and integrated the whole thing in my head, and, nope, I don't see any evidence of God."

You are a "show me" kind of guy, right? You are a skeptic, a materialist, right? You are prepared to make statements of truth based on your senses and reason, right?

No I am saying there is no god. I havent gone looking for evidence of something that is not there, I dont need to make a mental assumption about it. The evidence people keep trying to present just re-inforces my position, as non of it ever stacks up. NO one has ever presented to me a argument that explains god as anything other than a figment of the imagination in the heads of the religious

What I am not saying is that I have an exclisivity on rightness. I mentioned in another thread that electricity for example would be beyond the comprehension of somone 2000 years ago, and the things we can do with it now would have been called magical. I am prepared to be proved wrong. but in my head the burden of proof lies with the religious, because they are declaring the existance of something, that they seem unable to demonstrate. I, however, am not declaring the existance of anything, so have nothing to tangiably demonstrate

**chm2023** · 10-31-2005, 03:02 PM

Heard from God. He sez he'll weigh in on this once he solves the more pesky "tastes great/less filling" controversy. Jeez, no rest for the weary I guess...:cheers:

**drk** · 10-31-2005, 03:04 PM

Hey, CHM, don't you have a standing appointment to go flying around on your broom tonight? Better get dressed...:D

**Chairtime** · 10-31-2005, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by QDO1

As far as i am concerned there is no god for me to believe in

Hypothetical question for you. If you found out that both God and Satan exist, whom would you worship?

**QDO1** · 11-01-2005, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Chairtime

Hypothetical question for you. If you found out that both God and Satan exist, whom would you worship?

why would I want to worship any of them?

**QDO1** · 11-01-2005, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Here you go, QDO1:

Do you believe "there is no God", or do you "not believe in God"? Please be excruciatingly specific.

I believe there is no god. Is that specific enough?

The phrase I do not believe IN god, implys there is one to believe in

**Bill West** · 11-01-2005, 02:08 PM

Ps 14:1
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (KJV)

Originally Posted by QDO1

I believe there is no god. Is that specific enough?

The phrase I do not believe IN god, implys there is one to believe in

**QDO1** · 11-01-2005, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Bill West

Ps 14:1
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (KJV)

whats that got to do with the price of chips? I might as well quote you a page out of Ophthalmc lenses by Jalie - at least it has a high chance of being meaningful

**QDO1** · 11-02-2005, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by Bill West

Ps 14:1
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (KJV)

Hey Bill - as you only seem to communicate in quotes from the bible... we might come to the bible later... I have one for you

"Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge, but a fool layeth open his folly"

Proverbs 13:16

**drk** · 11-02-2005, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by QDO1

I believe there is no god. Is that specific enough?

The phrase I do not believe IN god, implys there is one to believe in

Thank you for your reply.

I hope that you live your life as you please. I hope that you wrest every last drop of pleasure and enjoyment that you can from your sixty to ninety year life span. I am sorry that you will be dust in thirty to sixty years.

It was nice knowing you.

Please do not say, someday, that you were not told of the truth.

**eyecarepro** · 10-31-2005, 02:52 PM

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"- Karl Marx (I think). One of my favourite quotes. I'm always up for a controversial topic. My 2 favourites- Politics and RELIGION. I respect EVERYONE'S beliefs, however, I do NOT necessarily think they're all RIGHT. Ozzy Osbourne and his evil minion's of the famed Black Sabbath have had a great impact on MY belief's. I too, am a devout atheist. Unfortunately, since Bush's second term, the lines that separate church and state have become more and more blurry. That scares me like I scare an Evangelical Christian.

**drk** · 10-31-2005, 03:00 PM

Hey, if you worship the Devil, and Satan believes in God (since he's met him many, many, many times..) why don't you?

**QDO1** · 11-01-2005, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Hey, if you worship the Devil, and Satan believes in God (since he's met him many, many, many times..) why don't you?

I dont believe there is a satan, pixies, , faries, angels or ghosts either etc

**chm2023** · 11-01-2005, 02:06 PM

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_he.htm

Now here is a fun idea!!! This is what traditional religion needs: production value.

Doesn't it sometimes seem like the % of crazy people is getting higher and higher?

**Chairtime** · 10-31-2005, 03:06 PM

For the record:

I am Catholic and believe in God. I have never seen God but I have had some personal experiences that I cannot explain using an Encyclopedia Brittanica.

The fighting words:
I know God exists and I believe athiests are missing out on a large part of their existence. They live superficially.

**eyecarepro** · 10-31-2005, 03:10 PM

Hey! Who says atheists live superficially?? I happen to live a very full life, WELL below the surface.

**Chairtime** · 10-31-2005, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by eyecarepro

Hey! Who says atheists live superficially?? I happen to live a very full life, WELL below the surface.

It may be a full life, but full of what?

**Pete Hanlin** · 10-31-2005, 03:17 PM

Wow, I haven't been to OptiBoard lately (busy, busy, busy)... I just decided to drop by and see what's been going on, and this thread was the first thing I saw!

I guess God has a sense of humor (um, with respects to your view- that is, assuming there is a God and that He cares about OptiBoard or anything else that happens on our little sphere we call Earth).
:)

Anyway, I happen to believe in God. By way of definition, specifically the God who goes by various names (Yahweh, Jehovah, etc.) and who is worshipped by Judeo-Christians.

So to begin. I am an Athiest. I dont believe in god. For me - I havent seen, experienced, or known a god to believe in. For me god is a figment of the immagination in the minds of the religious.
This about sums up what will likely be our different view of the world, as it defines the a priori assumptions we will each make in our approach to any discussion of the divine. As mentioned, I believe in God. This belief comes from observation and experiences (therefore, it can probably be assumed that you and I have had a different set of experiences up to this point in life).

Since you believe in no divine power, I'm assuming you subscribe to the theory that the universe came into being through a great explosion called the "Big Bang." Of course, unless you are very creative, you probably have no data regarding the origin of the infintesimal speck of matter that predated this explosion. Likewise, I can offer no explanation as to the origin of God. I'm just attempting to note up front that the origin of the universe is something which cannot be absolutely accounted for by either an atheistic or religious approach.

Furthermore, I'll assume you believe in the theory of evolution to explain the presence of life on this planet. Since evolution is not observable or repeatable (the requirements for science to make a definitive statement), again we'll have to argue based on our assumptions. Likewise, although a proposed account of creation is posted in Genesis, I wasn't personally there and obviously cannot scientifically prove the accuracy of that account- so neither of us has an absolutely provable position here either.

That is a tremendously long-winded way of stating that we're back to what we each "believe" based on experience (which you were able to do in one sentence, my compliments). So, what experiences do I have that lead me to a conclusion which differs from your own?

First, I find myself unable to believe that the universe, this planet, life, etc. came into being by time and chance (perhaps I'm just not imaginative enough to think through the remoteness of how this could happen through chance). From the beginning, then, I admit that the origin of my travel toward a belief in God comes from the ordered nature of the universe and an inability to account for it otherwise (religion usually begins thus- the Greeks believed in religious forces behind lightning and all sorts of other nonsense).

Based on my assumption that "something" put us here, it seems improbable to me that that "something" would have no purpose behind going to all that trouble. Basically, it seems such an imaginative creator would have had a purpose and would have communicated that purpose. That belief resulted in an evaluation of my options. Most religions seem nice enough, but Christianity seems to make the most sense to me (perhaps because I was born in a country that is primarily Judeo-Christian, to parents that hold that faith- who knows?). Of course, I've done some study to validate my belief in this particular religion. The ultimate validation (for me) being that Jesus Christ obviously lived (according to both Biblical and secular accounts), his appearance seems to be in accordance with any number of earlier prophesies, and (to use a cliche) no one seems to be able to produce his body (which is pretty much the keystone of the Christian faith).

Furthermore, every day I believe I feel the guidance of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus before His departure from the earth (that's right, you're dealing with a real "wacko" here- after all, Paul says the faith is basically foolishness). I'd love to say I always heed and live by that guidance- fact is, I don't (in my belief system, that's called sin). I can't claim any particular "miracles" in my life that reaffirm this belief (although a lot of otherwise coincidental things have happened that- due to the a priori beliefs mentioned earlier- lead me to see these event as being a confirmation of my belief in God).

So there it is. I should mention that I also believe that religion is pretty much for the birds. True religion is loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself- according to the Bible, anyway. The rest of it is trappings that have arisen in man's attempt to assist people in believing (although with the trappings come an alarming number of unnecessary additions, distortions, and outright heresies). Furthermore, I beleive belief in God can only come through His reaching out to us (cf. several passages in the Bible). The Bible seems to indicate that not everyone will come to a belief in God (although Romans 1 claims that the necessary elements to believe are contained in nature itself).

So, other than stating that I do believe in God based on my own experiences, there is nothing I can offer by way of argument to claim that I'm right and you are wrong. As Keikergaard (sp?) claimed, it all boils down to a leap of faith. It is completely possible that you are absolutely correct- the world originated from an explosion, life evolved to the point it is today, and we'll all pass into oblivion soon enough with no consequences one way or the other. Likewise, it would seem I could also be correct in my beliefs- each of us can only go by our own observations.

One question I would ask, however. Why should an atheist submit to ANY law- religious or otherwise? That is, if we are all here by chance, it seems each of us should pretty much govern ourselves. Forget all the "living together in society" crap. After all, society- like religion- is just a vehicle of the weak (who are too feeble to make their own decisions and livelihood). I'm not even suggesting atheism is wrong- I'd just like to know what a world comprised solely of true atheists would look like (I think it would have some rather interesting characteristics). Religion has resulted in all sorts of historically documentable atrocities- so has atheism (e.g., the U.S.S.R. was an atheistic community).

Great thread topic!

PS- Um, put me down as an "a.)"

**Spexvet** · 11-01-2005, 12:05 PM