Athiesm Vs Religion... let battle commence

[QDO1]

There is only one God. Allah is what the moslems call Him.

so you are saying that your god is the same god that moslems call Allah i.e. my premis that the god of Islam (Allah) and the god of Christianity (Jehovah) share a common origin... in the god of Judaism (Yahweh)?

is your god that the same god as DRK worships?

By the way, I havent mentioned Darwin in this thread yet

[QDO1]

Geez, I know who Epicurus was. I did read them. He was tautologically trying to make a point, but there was a major flaw in his reasoning. NEVERMIND.

What was the flaw?.. Im interested

[ziggy]

No, No, and No. Allah is Satan.

All though I agree with most of what you've said, drk, QDO1 is right, at least according to history. The Jews, Islam and Christians are all branches from the same tree. To discount that is like saying that there is not a direct line between the Catholics and us Baptist's. One is the foundation of the other. That is fact, not opinion. There is not very much independent thought in the world, but when the for-runners to the Jews decided to move to monotheism from polytheism, now that was unique. Still after all this time there are only 3 monotheistic religions, and yes they are all related.

[Spexvet]

Quote:
I wasn't in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. Was it God that kept me away? No that was you.

Thank you, Cassandra.

So God caused a gut feeling for her to stay at work, but it wasn't God who kept me away from the WTC. Ok. How convenient.

[drk]

Paul, would you say Mormonism is a branch of the same religion? Mormons believe that Elohim is a deified man, one of many gods, and that we can achieve godhood ourselves. Of course, Joseph Smith was told this by the "angel" Moroni.

Muhammed was approached by an entity claming to be the archangel Gabriel, who gave him the revelations of the Muslim faith. BTW, he felt he was being visited by Satan, but his wife and brother in law talked him out of it. (I'm probably off slighty, but insubstantially in these details.) The Koran is satanic. They think they're worshipping the same God, but they're duped.

Bottom line is this: Mormons are polytheists and were influenced by the devil. Muslims worship Satan, unbeknownst to them. Modern-day Jews are worshipping the correct God, but they do not accept Jesus, so they are in error. A serious read of their Law and Prophets would show them that they are waiting for a messiah, and acquaintance with the Gospel/ Epistles would show them who that messiah is.

[Bill West]

Gen 17:1
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Gen 16:1
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Gen 16:2
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (KJV)
Gen 17:21
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. (KJV)

Eph 2:11
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (KJV)
Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (KJV)
Eph 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (KJV)

There were two kinds of people in the world after God made his covenant with Abraham. Jews and Gentiles.
The Gentiles were grafted into the covenant by the blood of Christ.
Everyone outside of the covenant remains strangers from the covenants of promise and are heathens bound for hell.
Their only escape is through Jesus Christ.

All though I agree with most of what you've said, drk, QDO1 is right, at least according to history. The Jews, Islam and Christians are all branches from the same tree. To discount that is like saying that there is not a direct line between the Catholics and us Baptist's. One is the foundation of the other. That is fact, not opinion. There is not very much independent thought in the world, but when the for-runners to the Jews decided to move to monotheism from polytheism, now that was unique. Still after all this time there are only 3 monotheistic religions, and yes they are all related.

[chm2023]

Paul, would you say Mormonism is a branch of the same religion? Mormons believe that Elohim is a deified man, one of many gods, and that we can achieve godhood ourselves. Of course, Joseph Smith was told this by the "angel" Moroni.

Muhammed was approached by an entity claming to be the archangel Gabriel, who gave him the revelations of the Muslim faith. BTW, he felt he was being visited by Satan, but his wife and brother in law talked him out of it. (I'm probably off slighty, but insubstantially in these details.) The Koran is satanic. They think they're worshipping the same God, but they're duped.

Imagine all those Muslims being wrong and you being right. Sounds reasonable to me.

Bottom line is this: Mormons are polytheists and were influenced by the devil.

So Mormons too, huh? Golly!

Muslims worship Satan, unbeknownst to them. Modern-day Jews are worshipping the correct God, but they do not accept Jesus, so they are in error. A serious read of their Law and Prophets would show them that they are waiting for a messiah, and acquaintance with the Gospel/ Epistles would show them who that messiah is.

Jews: thumbs down. Got it. How about your Hindus and your Buddhists: satan worshipers or simply in error? Hurry, the fate of millions hangs on your response.

[drk]

Hindus Satan worshippers, as well. Buddhists are idolators, and I'm not sure about the Satanic nature of that religion.

But think about it. Why did God prohibit idolatry? One reason: it's off target. Another reason: Gives Satan an opportunity to be worshipped. Don't you think he would jump all over that opportunity?

CHM, I sense your incredulity. I made up absolutely zero percent of this. Don't blame the messenger. You are simply blind as to what the nature reality is. I was, too, before.

Think about this, though. How could everyone be right? 2+2 = a singularity, not a plurality, right? You're so indoctrinated about multiculturalism that by the way you responded to my post you'd think I just advocated pushing everyone in front of a train.

Who cares more, and who is the more tolerant? The person who's trying to save these people from eternal separation from God, or the person who isn't sure of what they believe, and (out of understandable consistency) is unwilling to propose something that they themselves are not sure of?

[chm2023]

Hindus Satan worshippers, as well. Buddhists are idolators, and I'm not sure about the Satanic nature of that religion.

But think about it. Why did God prohibit idolatry? One reason: it's off target. Another reason: Gives Satan an opportunity to be worshipped. Don't you think he would jump all over that opportunity?

CHM, I sense your incredulity. I made up absolutely zero percent of this. Don't blame the messenger. You are simply blind as to what the nature reality is. I was, too, before.

Think about this, though. How could everyone be right? 2+2 = a singularity, not a plurality, right? You're so indoctrinated about multiculturalism that by the way you responded to my post you'd think I just advocated pushing everyone in front of a train.

Who cares more, and who is the more tolerant? The person who's trying to save these people from eternal separation from God, or the person who isn't sure of what they believe, and (out of understandable consistency) is unwilling to propose something that they themselves are not sure of?

You assume you have a full understanding of the nature of God. I believe this degree of pride is a serious sin in the eyes of God. If you are implying that I have not been "born again" you are spot on. I was born right the first time.

And I was not aware that religious tolerance and multiculturalism are one and the same thing.

You feel you and the select few who totally agree with you are the only ones who know the "truth", and I'm "so indoctrinated"??

So what's your favorite Kool Aid flavor?

[drk]

You assume you have a full understanding of the nature of God. I believe this degree of pride is a serious sin in the eyes of God. If you are implying that I have not been "born again" you are spot on. I was born right the first time.

And I was not aware that religious tolerance and multiculturalism are one and the same thing.

You feel you and the select few who totally agree with you are the only ones who know the "truth", and I'm "so indoctrinated"??

So what's your favorite Kool Aid flavor?

I'd say...Bible-flavored. Redeemed Raspberry! Sanctified Strawberry!

Hey, I'm not "all that". God is. His revealed word is. His Holy Spirit is. I'm nothing, really. No argument there, right?

I was as blind as you, ten years ago. I'm nothing special in that regard. Thank the Lord that He called me to Him, and made "the blind see".

Look, the benefit of following God is eternal life in paradise. Why not take Him up on that offer?

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"John 3:7

23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 1 Peter 1:23

[QDO1]

Right, so now we have established that Yahweh is the common root to the jewish, christian and moslem religions, would someone explain to me why Jehovah and Allah, at least as traditionally understood, cannot both exist at the same time. Both claim to be the Creator of the universe, but they have contradictory attributes (e.g., Christianity claims that there are three "persons" known as God but Islam claims that there is only one). Therefore, Allah and Jehovah cannot both be "God"; at least one cannot exist

Which one guys - both or one

My difficulty with religion is that whilst (some) try to cram ancient scriptures down your throats, as a justification for what ever they want, as an athiest I look at what you are all saying and the inconsistancies flood out

You can not have a square circle

[drk]

Please restate your argument for me. It seems simple to me to say that "Islam is incorrect". There's more to your point, I know.

[chip anderson]

KANG: You can have a square circle if you are God.

[QDO1]

Gen 17:1
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Gen 16:1
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
Gen 16:2
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (KJV)
Gen 17:21
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. (KJV)

Eph 2:11
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (KJV)
Eph 2:12
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (KJV)
Eph 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (KJV)

There were two kinds of people in the world after God made his covenant with Abraham. Jews and Gentiles.
The Gentiles were grafted into the covenant by the blood of Christ.
Everyone outside of the covenant remains strangers from the covenants of promise and are heathens bound for hell.
Their only escape is through Jesus Christ.

Dont you ever read more modern books? When you read your King James Bible, are you aware of its internal translation innaccuracies?

Example:
The word used for fornication in the king james bible actually comes from 3 words:

Zanah meaning: "to commit adultery" (usually on the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); fig. To commit idolatry, a harlot, play the harlot, commit adultery; to apostatize, have intercourse with false g-ds or foreigners; to seduce.". pre-marital, illicit sex, adultery (marital, illicit sex), and idolatry (worship of a person or thing besides Yahweh).

Taznuth: and simply means a type of idolatry

Porneia: harlotry (incl. Adultery and incest); fig. Idolatry: - fornication.", incest definitions.
For example, the word fornication in Matthew 5:32 is often taken to denote an act of adultery, however an in-depth study will prove this understanding false, and confirm the real usage of this Greek word "porneia" in this particular passage, which is fornication, pre-material sex. incest

Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe

Your King James Bible bible translates all three words from the greek and Hebrew as fornication, which is a very sloppy translation

If there are that many errors of translation on 1 word, how many more errors are there?. Thats what gets my goat up when you post passages and expect people to leap

[QDO1]

Please restate your argument for me. It seems simple to me to say that "Islam is incorrect". There's more to your point, I know.

Well from my standpoint, as religious people you all claim - that is christian jews and moslems have the same herritage. You make statments like "god creted the world" - which presumably is pre-humanity, and before the above mentioned herritage. Now your god(s) seem to be different from eachother and incompatible with each other. Which is it to be? As a athiest I look at the three standpoints of the commonly rooted religions as in conflict with each other, and obviously make the assumption - either you are all wrong, or some of you are wrong. Millions of Moslems would dissagree with your assertion that they are wrong, millions of christians would make the assertion the moslems are wrong. Athiests in the world look at such an intelectual jumble as evidence that it is humans that make religion, and not god. God clearly cant be all the things you all want to tell me god is at once

[QDO1]

KANG: You can have a square circle if you are God.

thats so friggin obvious why didnt i think of that

[rinselberg]

I might argue that I believe that the world was created by a big green blob of jelly that's visible to me in the night sky ...

No need to argue what others can DOCUMENT!



For starters, you’ve got to love the opening…those cheesy pond ripple animated graphics swirling to the swinging tune “Beware of the Blob” (composed by a young Burt Bacharach, no less!), ending with the title of the film rather than beginning with it. It sets the mood perfectly every time. Then, of course, we get our first look at Steve McQueen, playing Steve…easy to remember. He was young, but way too old to be playing a teenager; a point that always gets a lot of laughs with this film ...



credit: http://www.dvdmoviecentral.com/ReviewsText/blob.htm

[drk]

King, your predicate is incorrect. There is no relation between Allah and Jehovah.

For that matter, and this is MY PERSONAL thinking, I'm not sure that Ishmael is credited with involvement in the beginning of Islam, but only the beginning of the Arab peoples. Muhammed was the first person involved in Islam.

So, I don't really get the connection between Allah and Jehovah. I get the connection between the Arab people and the Jewish, though.

[Chairtime]

Thank you, Cassandra.

So God caused a gut feeling for her to stay at work, but it wasn't God who kept me away from the WTC. Ok. How convenient.

Why would God protect you when you don't worship Him???

[QDO1]

All though I agree with most of what you've said, drk, QDO1 is right, at least according to history. The Jews, Islam and Christians are all branches from the same tree. To discount that is like saying that there is not a direct line between the Catholics and us Baptist's. One is the foundation of the other. That is fact, not opinion. There is not very much independent thought in the world, but when the for-runners to the Jews decided to move to monotheism from polytheism, now that was unique. Still after all this time there are only 3 monotheistic religions, and yes they are all related.

who's wrong then?

[QDO1]

King, your predicate is incorrect. There is no relation between Allah and Jehovah.

For that matter, and this is MY PERSONAL thinking, I'm not sure that Ishmael is credited with involvement in the beginning of Islam, but only the beginning of the Arab peoples. Muhammed was the first person involved in Islam.

So, I don't really get the connection between Allah and Jehovah. I get the connection between the Arab people and the Jewish, though.

Bone up on your history! History isnt pick and choose what you want

[Chairtime]

so you are saying that your god is the same god that moslems call Allah i.e. my premis that the god of Islam (Allah) and the god of Christianity (Jehovah) share a common origin... in the god of Judaism (Yahweh)?

is your god that the same god as DRK worships?

By the way, I havent mentioned Darwin in this thread yet

I'm saying there IS ONLY ONE GOD. Anyone who genuinely tries to serve and worship Him (Jew, Moslem, Christian, etc) will be honored by God, even if they are mistaken about some important details.

[QDO1]

King, your predicate is incorrect. There is no relation between Allah and Jehovah.

For that matter, and this is MY PERSONAL thinking, I'm not sure that Ishmael is credited with involvement in the beginning of Islam, but only the beginning of the Arab peoples. Muhammed was the first person involved in Islam.

So, I don't really get the connection between Allah and Jehovah. I get the connection between the Arab people and the Jewish, though.

IN the Qur'an none of the teachings of prophets who where in the linaiage before Muhammad are denied. Including Adam, Abraham , Solomon and Jesus, the Biblical and even extra-Biblical prophets are affirmed. Many actions of these prophets are lauded in the the Qur'an.

[QDO1]

I'm saying there IS ONLY ONE GOD. Anyone who genuinely tries to serve and worship Him (Jew, Moslem, Christian, etc) will be honored by God, even if they are mistaken about some important details.

How do you expali that Christianity claims that there are three "persons" known as God but Islam claims that there is only one. This is just another inconsistancy - who is right who is wrong?

[Chairtime]

How do you expali that Christianity claims that there are three "persons" known as God but Islam claims that there is only one. This is just another inconsistancy - who is right who is wrong?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity. One God.