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Thread: Athiesm Vs Religion... let battle commence

  1. #151
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    If christianity and Islam historically share the same god, how come they both say thier god is exclusive?

    They can not be the same god because christians claim there are three persons known as god -the trinity, which is an artical of faith, moslems there is just one (which is an article of faith)

    Thus Allah and Jehovah cannot both be "God"
    By both claiming exclusivity, and both being different, yet both claiming to have their common origin in the god of Judaism (Yahweh) it would be fair to say that either one god, or the other god, or god itself does not exist

    - you can not have married batchelors that is a inconsistancy

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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    I have a question for those who claim to be religious

    "Do you think it is logically possible that a deductive disproof of your god may exist in the 99.9% that is outside your pool of knowledge and experience?"

    this is an easy question requiring a yes or no,
    No, because you can't prove a negative. Ask any lawyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    If christianity and Islam historically share the same god, how come they both say thier god is exclusive?

    They can not be the same god because christians claim there are three persons known as god -the trinity, which is an artical of faith, moslems there is just one (which is an article of faith)

    Thus Allah and Jehovah cannot both be "God"
    By both claiming exclusivity, and both being different, yet both claiming to have their common origin in the god of Judaism (Yahweh) it would be fair to say that either one god, or the other god, or god itself does not exist

    - you can not have married batchelors that is a inconsistancy
    When it comes to religions, you will always have different opinions. Every religion has an element of truth and an element of error. Look at the similarities instead of the differences:

    ~One God who created us.
    ~He tells us to love each other and pray.
    ~He tells us to exercise self-control.
    ~He tells us to avoid evil.

    Jesus Christ didn't start the church of Jehovah, Allah, or even the "Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-Day-Saints." He started the Catholic Church. All the more recent churches were started by someone who disagreed with a rule of the Catholic Church. ie "I like the Catholic Church... except that I want to take birth control... I have an idea. Let's start a church called "The New Christian Family Planning Church."

  4. #154
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    Why would God protect you when you don't worship Him???
    So God is an extortionist? Really???? My whole conception of God will have to be revamped, I never pictured Him as Guido the Knee-capper.
    Last edited by chm2023; 11-04-2005 at 09:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    So God is an extortionist? Really???? My whole conception of God will have to be revamped, I never pictured Him as Guido the Knee-capper.
    *badum-bum* nyuk, nyuk, nyuk

    ...and the corniest joke prize goes to... chm!!!

  6. #156
    OptiWizard ksquared's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Spexvet.: No offense, but it's as explainable as "presto".
    No offence but there’s a lot more evidence for the “presto” than a big green glob of a space alien. So much evidence that sometimes I stagger under the weight of it all. Although I have many argument lines to choose from, let’s start with “in the Beginning”. With the “presto” or “big bang”.

    Cosmological Argument:

    Premise 1: Everything that has a beginning had a cause (The Law of Causality, the fundamental principle of science. Without this law, science would be impossible)

    Premise 2: The universe had a beginning (supporting evidence listed below)

    Conclusions: The universe had a cause - something created something out of nothing.


    1916 – Einstein completed his theory of General Relativity, which predicted the Universe is expanding from a single point in the distant past. Not something he was particularly happy with btw. It was most irritating to say the least. Einstein believed the universe was eternal but his calculations predicted just the opposite.

    1927 - At California’s Mount Wilson Observatory, astronomer Edwin Hubble discovered a “red shift” in the light from every observable galaxy, which indicated that the universe exploded (big bang) from a single point in the distant past just as Einstein’s theory predicted.

    1948 – Scientists predict there would have been an afterglow if the Big Bang really happened.

    1965 – Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discover the cosmic background radiation, light and heat from the original explosion, the afterglow of the Big Bang. Their accidental discovery won them a Nobel Prize.

    Agnostic astronomer Robert Jastrow had this to say:“No other explanation other than the Big Bang has been found for the fire-ball radiation. The clincher, which has convinced almost the last Doubting Thomas, is that the radiation discovered by Penzias and Wilson has exactly the pattern of wavelengths expected for the light and heat produced in a great explosion. At the present time the Big Bang has no competitors.”

    1989 – Scientist predict there would be ripples in the temperatures of the cosmic radiations if the Big Bang were true. NASA launches COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer)

    1992 – COBE’s findings publicized. Not only did COBE find the ripples, the ripples were so precise it appeared the expansion of the universe had been engineered. The explosion had occurred in such a way that it created just the right amount of matter to allow for galaxy formation but not enough so that the universe would collapse back on itself. COBE’s pictures pointed to the existence of matter from the very early universe. Called “seeds” these are the largest structures ever detected, the largest measuring 60 billion trillion miles.

    "Presto", the Big Bang, undisputable proof that the elements that make up our universe: matter, time and space, exploded out of nowhere from a single point.

    Albert Einstein after visiting Mt. Wilson to see the evidence for himself redirected his efforts to solving the puzzle of life “to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.”

    Robert Jastrow, director at Mount Wilson and the founder of NASA”s Goddard Institute of Space studies “Astromimers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in the cosmos and on the earth. And they found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover…. That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scenically proven fact.

    Now I have a little question for those of you who have been throwing around the word “faith” with such liberal abandonment. Which of these statement requires more faith.

    Something created something out of nothing.

    Or

    Nothing created something out of nothing.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    If the evidance points to a "supernatural force", should we take a “blind leap of faith” and say an intelligent creator doesn’t exist at all, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Nothing is what rocks dream of btw. Instead of trying to find out who this force might be, should we take the position that all gods are the same so it doesn’t matter which you believe in, just arbitrarily select one based on our feelings? Or should we try and discover “truth” by taking a look at the claims being made by the various religions and see which has the evidence.

    Consider this. The issue with Christ was never his teachings. He wasn’t crucified because he said, “love your neighbor as yourself”. He was crucified because he claimed to be “God”, the 1st Cause. “ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And his claims weren’t empty like so many being made on this thread. Not only did Christ claim to be the Alpha and the Omega, his claims are based on facts and evidence. The evidence came 1st, followed by the claim. Not the other way around. Evidence that leads to knowledge. Knowledge that leads to trust followed by the absolutely certainty that He was who He claimed to be.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally Posted by Chairtime: I'm saying there IS ONLY ONE GOD. Anyone who genuinely tries to serve and worship Him (Jew, Moslem, Christian, etc) will be honored by God, even if they are mistaken about some important details.
    Now this may be what the other religions teach or what you would like to beleive. However beleiving something doesn't make it true. ANd it’s completely contrary to the teaching of Christianity.

    Consider this. 2+2 =4, 2+2 =5 or 2+2=6. All 3 are mathematical equations but some of the important details (like the answer) are quite different. Are all 3 statements true?

    But even if we chose to ignore the math, the Bible is crystal clear in its teachings that there is only one path. The Bible says this not 1, not 2, but 100 times. But even if there was only one reference, it would be pretty difficult to make a counter case to what Christ said. We'd be hard pressed to interpret “I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no One comes to the Father except through me” to mean all roads lead to God. Based on the evidance (in this case the Bible), it would be almost impossible to believe the Christian God will be honoring multiple forms of worship. All of the paths can be false but only one can be true.
    Last edited by ksquared; 11-10-2005 at 10:06 PM.

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  7. #157
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    I have a question for those who claim to be religious

    "Do you think it is logically possible that a deductive disproof of your god may exist in the 99.9% that is outside your pool of knowledge and experience?"

    this is an easy question requiring a yes or no,

    If I may simplify the question: Would I stipulate that there's a possibility of a good, logical, argument that disproves God's existance?

    I'm going to hairsplit: I say there is a possibility of such an argument, and that it may be difficult to refute, logically.

    Would I be persuaded by it? I'd say I'd try not to be. I'm happy believing in God. I want to continue to believe. If there were no God, my life would lose the overarching meaning and satisfaction that I'm getting. I remember what life was like before I believed; it wasn't misery, but it was hollow, compared to what I have now.

    My faith is based on more than a good tautology. Here's where it gets weird: faith is a gift from God. He calls you and helps you to believe. And please, feel free to attack this apparent inconguity. God somehow predestins us, and yet we have free will. It's impossible to understand, because it's contradictory. This is where I have to have blind, irrational faith. This would be a major hurdle for me, if I were an atheist; "Hey, why doesn't God call me? Aren't I good enough?"

    And yet we have His promise "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

    And, conversely, we have "20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

    The door must swing both ways. It is mutual, somehow.




    Revelation 21

    The New Jerusalem

    1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."


    5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

    6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." 22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
    Revelation 22



    7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."

    8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

    10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

    12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

    17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

    20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
    Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
    Last edited by drk; 11-04-2005 at 09:57 AM.

  8. #158
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    DRK Put spaces after your numbers. 5 looks like SHe. Wait til the libers jump on that.

  9. #159
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    If christianity and Islam historically share the same god, how come they both say thier god is exclusive?

    They can not be the same god because christians claim there are three persons known as god -the trinity, which is an artical of faith, moslems there is just one (which is an article of faith)

    Thus Allah and Jehovah cannot both be "God"
    By both claiming exclusivity, and both being different, yet both claiming to have their common origin in the god of Judaism (Yahweh) it would be fair to say that either one god, or the other god, or god itself does not exist

    - you can not have married batchelors that is a inconsistancy
    I've told you that you are correct! They are not the same God. You don't want to accept the answer? Christian God = real God. Islamic god = Satan dressed up like God.

    P.S. Nice post K-squared. Lots of work. Scientists out there: what do you think?
    Last edited by drk; 11-04-2005 at 09:56 AM.

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    Great post, KSQUARED !!

    ksquared, very impressive post I must say. I can accept most of what you say and I like it too!

    On whether or not OTHER religions will be honored by God, you have me half convinced, and I'm open to the other half. Except for this one little part. You say a Christian God will not honor other types of worship, yet there are many types of Christians. Take drk for example. He thinks the mother of Jesus is actually Satan. Catholics see her as someone who helps bring you to Jesus. Other than that, we pretty much agree. Are you saying that even though drk and I are both good, faithful Christians, one of us is going to hell because of our opinion of Mary?

    And as an extension of that, is God most concerned about the NAME of your religion, or your actions?? Meaning, if a Jew "loves thy neighbor," as told by Jesus, why can't he go to heaven?

  11. #161
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Deism and the Big Bang

    "In the beginning was the Word." OptiBoard member ksquared considers the theological implications of current trends in cosmology: Specifically the Big Bang, the currently dominant scientific explanation of the origins of the observable universe.
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=156


    The Cosmic Background Spectrum as measured by NASA's COBE Satellite. Variations in the Cosmic Background Radiation temperature reflect density fluctuations in the early Universe before matter and light parted company. After decoupling, the density fluctuations could grow under gravity to form the seeds for galaxies and clusters. The nature of these fluctuations agrees with current theories of the formation of structure in the Universe.

    credit: http://cassfos02.ucsd.edu/public/tutorial/BB.html

    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    Nice post ksquared! Lots of work. Scientists out there: What do you think?
    I think that ksquared's post is a very elegant argument for deism.


    deism

    The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no [further] influence on natural phenomena and giving no supernatural revelation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
    Scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations. In short, I soon became a thorough Deist.
    credit: http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm



    rinselberg posted previously on this thread
    A Neo-Darwinist speaks
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...3&postcount=59
    Last edited by rinselberg; 11-05-2005 at 04:36 AM.

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  12. #162
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    Jesus Christ didn't start the church of Jehovah, Allah, or even the "Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-Day-Saints." He started the Catholic Church. All the more recent churches were started by someone who disagreed with a rule of the Catholic Church. ie "I like the Catholic Church... except that I want to take birth control... I have an idea. Let's start a church called "The New Christian Family Planning Church."
    Ok, let's see how you measure up to Christian standards - see if you can call yourself a Christian.

    While most people "profess" to be something, the fact that you profess has no bearing on whether you are that thing. No matter how much I profess to be 20 years old, I am not. I can profess that a shape with 4 corners of exactly the same degrees and sides the same length is a circle, but the fact is that I've described a square. I can profess to be politically conservative, but if I support programs that provide for those who can't provide for themselves, I am liberal.

    So, here are some Christian concepts and (IMHO) how it appears you measure up, by your posts:

    Thou shalt not kill
    Sorry, you all appear to support the Iraq war, and Chip has even stated that it's not a sin if you kill somebody that needs killing. Grade: F

    The Golden Rule
    I get the sense that you'd be upset if the church and government prohibited you from marrying someone of the opposite gender. Yet you impose that rule on others. This is not treating others as you'd like to be treated. Grade: F

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
    Not even close. You've been hurling stones. Does anyone want to claim that they are in a state of grace? Grade: D- (only because nobody is without sin)

    Judge not, lest ye be judged
    There's a whole lotta judging going on. Gay folks are evil? Not only judgement, but incorrect. Grade: F

    Love thy neighbor
    Only if they're not gay. And, as Jesus says, it's easy to love people that are like you. Try loving someone who is not like you. If you love them, you'd let them marry who they love. Grade: F (you can't even bring yourself to love those who worship the same God that you do)

    Love thy enemy
    It seems that you view those who have homosexual sex as the enemy. You don't love these people, in fact you persecute them. Grade: F

    Turn the other cheek
    I haven't seen any indication that you're turning the other cheek. Grade C-

    You folks haven't shown that you embrace Jesus' teachings, yet you insist on professing that you're Christian. Why?

    I've heard the response that you're Christian, but an unworthy sinner, or an imperfect Christian. My recommendation then, is to call yourself something other than Christian. A square is not a circle, and while a triangle or oval may be closer to a circle, IT IS STILL NOT A CIRCLE, nor is your behavior Christian (if your posts are any indication).
    ...Just ask me...

  13. #163
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Could be. That's a sufficient, but not necessary conclusion, based on the single topic that was discussed.



    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    I think it's a very elegant argument for deism.


    deism

    The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no [further] influence on natural phenomena and giving no supernatural revelation.



    rinselberg posted previously on this thread
    A Neo-Darwinist speaks
    http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...3&postcount=59

  14. #164
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksquared
    No offence but there’s a lot more evidence for the “presto” than a big green glob of a space alien. So much evidence that sometimes I stagger under the weight of it all. Although I have many argument lines to choose from, let’s start with “in the Beginning”. With the “presto” or “big bang”.
    ...
    "Presto", the Big Bang, undisputable proof that the elements that make up our universe: matter, time and space, exploded out of nowhere from a single point.

    ...
    Now I have a little question for those of you who have been throwing around the word “faith” with such liberal abandonment. Which of these statement requires more faith.

    Something created something out of nothing.

    Or

    Nothing created something out of nothing.

    Should we take a “blind leap of faith” and say an intelligent creator doesn’t exist at all, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Nothing is what rocks dream of btw. Should we take the position that all gods are the same so it doesn’t matter which you believe in. Should we just arbitrarily select one based on our feelings? Or should we try and discover “truth”, taking a look at the claims being made by the various religions and see which has the evidence.
    Ksquared, The presto to which I referred was God creating the universe in six days. I support the Big Bang, and its natural result, evolution. If you want to define God as "that which created matter/energy and caused the Big Bang" I concede - I will not argue that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ksquared
    Consider this....

    All of the paths can be false but only one can be true.
    Your certainty comes from your faith - and there are Hari Krishnas who are just as certain as you are. I challenge you to convince me without using the Bible as justification. I will not believe anything just because "it says in the Bible". I need more.
    ...Just ask me...

  15. #165
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    A little defense and a little clarifying:



    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Ok, let's see how you measure up to Christian standards - see if you can call yourself a Christian.


    Thou shalt not kill
    Sorry, you all appear to support the Iraq war, and Chip has even stated that it's not a sin if you kill somebody that needs killing. Grade: F

    This is a good point. I wonder about killing in a state of war, as well.

    The Golden Rule
    I get the sense that you'd be upset if the church and government prohibited you from marrying someone of the opposite gender. Yet you impose that rule on others. This is not treating others as you'd like to be treated. Grade: F

    Not good argument. You can't say that, or you'd never say "no" to anything.

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
    Not even close. You've been hurling stones. Does anyone want to claim that they are in a state of grace? Grade: D- (only because nobody is without sin)

    Who, specifically, by name has he judged? Speaking out against evil is not judgement. Plus, he's pronouncing God's judgement, not his, anyway.

    Judge not, lest ye be judged
    There's a whole lotta judging going on. Gay folks are evil? Not only judgement, but incorrect. Grade: F

    Same argument as above.
    Love thy neighbor
    Only if they're not gay. And, as Jesus says, it's easy to love people that are like you. Try loving someone who is not like you. If you love them, you'd let them marry who they love. Grade: F (you can't even bring yourself to love those who worship the same God that you do)
    You can't used God's word against itself. He said homosexuality is wrong, and he said love your neighbor as well. You sort that out.

    Love thy enemy
    It seems that you view those who have homosexual sex as the enemy. You don't love these people, in fact you persecute them. Grade: F

    Rethink your definition of love and persecution.

    Turn the other cheek
    I haven't seen any indication that you're turning the other cheek. Grade C-

    You folks haven't shown that you embrace Jesus' teachings, yet you insist on professing that you're Christian. Why?

    I've heard the response that you're Christian, but an unworthy sinner, or an imperfect Christian. My recommendation then, is to call yourself something other than Christian. A square is not a circle, and while a triangle or oval may be closer to a circle, IT IS STILL NOT A CIRCLE, nor is your behavior Christian (if your posts are any indication).
    Come on, Spex. A Christian is a Christian. There are no pefect Christians, as you can plainly see, so there would be NO CHRISTIANS. You are intuiting why we are justified by faith, alone, in the atoning death of Jesus! Nobody can measure up. You're trying to hold people to a higher standard than God currently does!
    Last edited by drk; 11-04-2005 at 11:06 AM.

  16. #166
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    When it comes to religions, you will always have different opinions. Every religion has an element of truth and an element of error. Look at the similarities instead of the differences:

    ~One God who created us.
    ~He tells us to love each other and pray.
    ~He tells us to exercise self-control.
    ~He tells us to avoid evil.

    Jesus Christ didn't start the church of Jehovah, Allah, or even the "Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-Day-Saints." He started the Catholic Church. All the more recent churches were started by someone who disagreed with a rule of the Catholic Church. ie "I like the Catholic Church... except that I want to take birth control... I have an idea. Let's start a church called "The New Christian Family Planning Church."
    I would say the trinity and an exclusive god are pretty big errors

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    On whether or not OTHER religions will be honored by God, you have me half convinced, and I'm open to the other half. Except for this one little part. You say a Christian God will not honor other types of worship, yet there are many types of Christians. Take drk for example. He thinks the mother of Jesus is actually Satan. Catholics see her as someone who helps bring you to Jesus. Other than that, we pretty much agree. Are you saying that even though drk and I are both good, faithful Christians, one of us is going to hell because of our opinion of Mary?

    And as an extension of that, is God most concerned about the NAME of your religion, or your actions?? Meaning, if a Jew "loves thy neighbor," as told by Jesus, why can't he go to heaven?
    Holy good questions about salvation, Batman!

    God accepts only people who are covered in the blood of Jesus. Case closed. Any type of person. In theory could call themselves Wiccans (in theory).

    As to the Jewish person question, we do not gain acceptance from God by our works. Just by our faith in Jesus.

    Don't forget, we are "made just" by faith alone! Not how we worship or how correct our beliefs are, about such things as baptism, scriptural canonicity, Marian theology ,etc.

    Justification by faith, by the way, along with "sola scriptura" (Bible only: no other church teaching) is what made the Reformation occur. You can see that it's a logical, simple, fundamental idea, the misunderstanding of which will lead a Catholic or liberal Protestant to a theological dead end.

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    ...is God most concerned about the NAME of your religion, or your actions?? Meaning, if a Jew "loves thy neighbor," as told by Jesus, why can't he go to heaven?
    What if an atheist "loves thy neighbor?"
    ...Just ask me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    A little defense and a little clarifying:





    Come on, Spex. A Christian is a Christian. There are no pefect Christians, as you can plainly see, so there would be NO CHRISTIANS. You are intuiting why we are justified by faith, alone, in the atoning death of Jesus! Nobody can measure up. You're trying to hold people to a higher standard than God currently does!
    But it appears that some of you folks aren't even trying, for God's sake!
    ...Just ask me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    But it appears that some of you folks aren't even trying, for God's sake!
    Point taken.

    Atheists can be/are "good people" by human standards, BTW.

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    I keep trying to get it across the commandment as given to Moses was: "Thou shalt not commit murder." Not: "Thou shalt not kill."

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    Exodus 20

    The Ten Commandments

    1 And God spoke all these words:



    2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

    3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

    4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

    8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

    12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

    13 "You shall not murder.

    14 "You shall not commit adultery.

    15 "You shall not steal.

    16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

    (NIV and all other versions agree on term "murder")


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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    I keep trying to get it across the commandment as given to Moses was: "Thou shalt not commit murder." Not: "Thou shalt not kill."
    you ought to find my thread exxplaining fornication in terms of greek and hebrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Ok, let's see how you measure up to Christian standards - see if you can call yourself a Christian.

    While most people "profess" to be something, the fact that you profess has no bearing on whether you are that thing. No matter how much I profess to be 20 years old, I am not. I can profess that a shape with 4 corners of exactly the same degrees and sides the same length is a circle, but the fact is that I've described a square. I can profess to be politically conservative, but if I support programs that provide for those who can't provide for themselves, I am liberal.

    So, here are some Christian concepts and (IMHO) how it appears you measure up, by your posts:

    Thou shalt not kill
    Sorry, you all appear to support the Iraq war, and Chip has even stated that it's not a sin if you kill somebody that needs killing. Grade: F

    The Golden Rule
    I get the sense that you'd be upset if the church and government prohibited you from marrying someone of the opposite gender. Yet you impose that rule on others. This is not treating others as you'd like to be treated. Grade: F

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
    Not even close. You've been hurling stones. Does anyone want to claim that they are in a state of grace? Grade: D- (only because nobody is without sin)

    Judge not, lest ye be judged
    There's a whole lotta judging going on. Gay folks are evil? Not only judgement, but incorrect. Grade: F

    Love thy neighbor
    Only if they're not gay. And, as Jesus says, it's easy to love people that are like you. Try loving someone who is not like you. If you love them, you'd let them marry who they love. Grade: F (you can't even bring yourself to love those who worship the same God that you do)

    Love thy enemy
    It seems that you view those who have homosexual sex as the enemy. You don't love these people, in fact you persecute them. Grade: F

    Turn the other cheek
    I haven't seen any indication that you're turning the other cheek. Grade C-

    You folks haven't shown that you embrace Jesus' teachings, yet you insist on professing that you're Christian. Why?

    I've heard the response that you're Christian, but an unworthy sinner, or an imperfect Christian. My recommendation then, is to call yourself something other than Christian. A square is not a circle, and while a triangle or oval may be closer to a circle, IT IS STILL NOT A CIRCLE, nor is your behavior Christian (if your posts are any indication).
    judge me then - lol - that will be worth a read

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    Holy good questions about salvation, Batman!

    God accepts only people who are covered in the blood of Jesus. Case closed. Any type of person. In theory could call themselves Wiccans (in theory).

    As to the Jewish person question, we do not gain acceptance from God by our works. Just by our faith in Jesus.

    Don't forget, we are "made just" by faith alone! Not how we worship or how correct our beliefs are, about such things as baptism, scriptural canonicity, Marian theology ,etc.

    Justification by faith, by the way, along with "sola scriptura" (Bible only: no other church teaching) is what made the Reformation occur. You can see that it's a logical, simple, fundamental idea, the misunderstanding of which will lead a Catholic or liberal Protestant to a theological dead end.
    and Gene Robinson ?

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