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Thread: Athiesm Vs Religion... let battle commence

  1. #51
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    Which sounds more reasonable. The complexity of life over millions of years is an accident??
    Don't say "accident". Rather say "change by continual trial and error through mutation". Yes, more reasonable than "presto".

    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    No, you're thinking of "The American Way."
    No, I'm thinking Jim and Tammy Baker, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, The Catholic Church, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum.
    ...Just ask me...

  2. #52
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Could life on earth have been planted by aliens or could humans have been from another planet, stranded here?
    ...Just ask me...

  3. #53
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    So what role does God play? Does he control every thought we have, all of our movements? Or did he set up the universe and let it ride?
    I personally believe God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent (pretty much anything with the prefix "om-" attached ;^). He knows all, is simultaneously in all points of past and future time, and is capable of doing pretty much anything (any limitations being self-imposed).

    God knows what decisions, thoughts, etc. I will arrive at (and is capable of controlling them if He wishes- cf. Pharoh in Exodus)- but this does not absolve me for responsibility for my thoughts, decisions, and actions. In this respect, He's like an uber-parent. I might know my child is going to make a bad decision (e.g., drinking and driving). I can either eliminate the possibility (by grounding him for life to his room), or allow him to play out the consequences. Assuming I've provided ample instruction as to why he shouldn't drink and drive, it is his own fault when he does so. Further, innocent people may suffer consequences due to his bad decision (i.e., sin). I think this is a micro-example of how original sin and the general messed up state of our world came to be.

    But which sounds more reasonable?
    Atoms combine to make molecules, which combine to make amino acids, which combine to make one celled "animals", which mutate into many celled animals and millions of years and millions of mutations later, into human beings- or Presto!

    As I've alluded to in prior posts, "presto" seems more likely and reasonable to me (at which point you are free to sadly shake your head at my gullibility- I accept that with all good humor). Its not that I don't believe in amino acids, atoms, etc. I just don't believe that they ordered themselves by chance. Even given all the stars, planets, etc... the mathematical probability that life as we know it would happen- by chance- is, well, astronomically unlikely. I've seen it put in several ways... my favorite being the probability of the universe ordering itself the way we experience it (with life on earth) is lower than the probability of putting 10,000 old-fashioned typewriters in a room, blowing the whole pile up, and coming up with the text of the front page of the NY Times laid neatly out in a row. You allude to the chances of the Red Sox winning the Series, well, the Sox are one of a few dozen teams- they had to eventually win! Conversely, even given the multitude of planets, stars, etc., the chances of life self-organizing are far, far, far more remote.

    How does the God of Abraham differ from Greek and Norse gods. They all "explain" that which we didn't/don't understand, or want to understand.
    I suppose we would have to ask the Egyptians how the God of Abraham differs from the Norse gods. Seriously, though, I believe I alluded to the fact that God (any god, that is), is a concept that will naturally be used to explain the otherwise inexplicable. The question being, is the god in question actually the solution- or answer- to the inexplicable, or is the god simply a substitute for knowledge. In the case of Jehovah God, I believe (by faith) the former. You may believe (by faith in some other god or by faith in the power of chance and time) otherwise. Since neither of us can prove from whence we come or why we are here, it remains a subject of belief, faith, and our "best educated guesses."

    Formalized religion institution, beginning with all it's good intentions, eventually comes down to attaining and maintaining power/wealth.
    Based upon my studies of the histories of both the Christian- and other- religions, I would tend to wholeheartedly agree. I believe Jesus pointed out pretty much the same problem to those involved in the formalized religions of His time as well. Without doubt, the second the Christian faith adds anything to "love God and love your neighbor" it finds itself in a swamp of human frailty, egos, and depravity. This was a problem from the very beginning of the Christian church (e.g., Paul v. those who taught circumcision as a necessary practice of the faith, or Paul v. Peter regarding "clean & unclean" foods). I don't think it would be too strong of a statement to say God doesn't get any joy out of organized religion. Conversely, however, I believe we are admonished to "meet together," so there is a definite benefit to being accountable to- and part of- a group of fellow believers (not to get too symbolic, but this is the reason Jesus washed the feet of the disciples at the Last Supper- the communion emphasizes our relationship to God- footwashing to our fellow believers).

    No one is raised i a vacuum. Morals/values are instilled from birth by whoever raises a child. The USSR was an atheistic state, but its citizens were not necessarily atheists.
    But of COURSE we are raised in a vacuum! Isn't that the point of the big bang and evolution (and of Neitsche- sp?)? We are all raised in a vacuum on an organized jumble of atoms called the earth that hosts a bunch of organized strands of DNA called homo sapiens. The universe is just a blob of chance with no particular purpose, destiny, or destination (other than to devolve back into randomness). Where, pray tell, does morality fit into this system? Why should a child have ANY inclination to believe in anything his/her parent does? To what end? By acting in a certain way, will we better our own existance (for that matter, what constitutes a better existance- better than what)? "I think, therefore I am!" Okay, than whatever you think makes up what you are- you self-determine what you will be. That leaves no room for any common morality. Its not "we think, therefore we are" (unless you're a Borg from Star Trek). Its not "He thought, therefore I am." Be absolutely clear on this point, atheism leaves no room for a common morality of man (perhaps one of convenience, but not a prescriptive- or "ought to"- morality with any substance). There is no definition of "better," "ought," "more right," or any other superlative if atheism is in fact true. At least not one that can be applied to more than one individual.

    The difference being that your posts are fair and interesting...
    Thanks, but this observation proves my immediately prior point. Interesting as defined by whom? Fair as defined by whom? You? The majority of Americans? People whose last name starts with a consonant? Its all arbitrary. There is no fairness. In an atheist construct (without divine inspiration or guidance) there is no "fair," because there can be no "fairer." Fair is an individual thought by a single individual. Numerous individuals may, by contract, agree to call something fair- but there is no weight behind that definition. In fact, if racism is determined to be "fair" by the group, then racism would be, by definition- fair.

    Now, I believe we would all agree racism is NOT fair. Why? I choose to believe it is because we share a common moral origin- God. We are all made in the image of God. God has instilled what is fair and unfair throughout the world. True, we have ALL strayed from that truth- we all act unfairly, unwisely, untruthfully. That explains the present state we live in.

    Wow, I fear I've far exceeded my 500 word limit (and I've blown another lunch- oh well, I'll lose some weight at this rate anyway).

    This is an enjoyable thread!
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  4. #54
    Optiboard Professional Bill West's Avatar
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    See you there

    Rev 20:11
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Rev 20:13
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)


    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    whats that got to do with the price of chips? I might as well quote you a page out of Ophthalmc lenses by Jalie - at least it has a high chance of being meaningful

  5. #55
    Master OptiBoarder ziggy's Avatar
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    Brother Bill,, your wasting your time, QDO1 puts as much stock in the KJV as he would in a spider man comic. You got to come up with something other than Bible verse if you want to convince him. good luck!
    Paul:cheers:

  6. #56
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy
    Brother Bill,, your wasting your time, QDO1 puts as much stock in the KJV as he would in a spider man comic. You got to come up with something other than Bible verse if you want to convince him. good luck!
    you are absoloutly right

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    Spexvet, what letter do you choose? You argue against God but you can't bring yourself to say there is no God. What's the deal? Do you even know what you believe? Is there a God or not? Do you worship Him or not?

  8. #58
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill West
    Rev 20:11
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Rev 20:13
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)
    must have been on some good mushrooms or something

  9. #59
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    A Neo-Darwinist speaks

    Neo-Darwinist

    An adherent of the Darwinian theory of evolution (Charles Darwin), as modified by the findings of modern, gene-centered (genetic) scientific research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    But of COURSE we are raised in a vacuum! Isn't that the point of the big bang and evolution (and of Neitsche- sp?)? We are all raised in a vacuum on an organized jumble of atoms called the earth that hosts a bunch of organized strands of DNA called homo sapiens. The universe is just a blob of chance with no particular purpose, destiny, or destination (other than to devolve back into randomness). Where, pray tell, does morality fit into this system? Why should a child have ANY inclination to believe in anything his/her parent does? To what end? By acting in a certain way, will we better our own existance (for that matter, what constitutes a better existance- better than what)? "I think, therefore I am!" Okay, than whatever you think makes up what you are- you self-determine what you will be. That leaves no room for any common morality. Its not "we think, therefore we are" (unless you're a Borg from Star Trek). Its not "He thought, therefore I am." Be absolutely clear on this point, atheism leaves no room for a common morality of man - perhaps one of convenience, but not a prescriptive or "ought to" morality with any substance. There is no definition of "better", "ought", "more right" or any other superlative if atheism is in fact true. At least not one that can be applied to more than one individual.
    I have called myself a Neo-Darwinist and a deist (deist: http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&postcount=161) - deist, agnostic, atheist - I think it would be splitting hairs to quarrel over any of those (three) terms. Pete's comments (above) prompt me to post some ideas about the evolution of morality in the human species. I think it's obvious that the human species has capacities for altruistic behavior, self-deception and deceipt and misdemeanor in varying proportions from individual to individual. The well-known and controversial Neo-Darwinist Robert Trivers was profiled not too long ago in the Boston Globe. I will close with a web link to this article because I think it makes for some very interesting reading:
    Trivers's ideas have rippled out into anthropology, psychology, sociology, medicine, even economics. His work provided the intellectual basis for the then-emergent field of sociobiology (now better known as evolutionary psychology), which sought to challenge our conceptions of family, sex, friendship, and ethics by arguing (controversially) that everything from rape to religion is bred in the bone through the process of evolution. The linguist and Harvard psychology professor Steven Pinker calls Trivers ''one of the great thinkers in the history of Western thought.''
    Actually I ALMOST agree with one thing that Pete Hanlin said: "Atheism leaves no room for a common morality of man - perhaps one of convenience, but not a prescriptive or ought to morality with any substance." In my view, morality is a survival mechanism that has evolved to its highest observable degree on earth in the human species alone. How could this have happened? Neo-Darwinism allows for natural selection of genetic material based on competition among individuals of a single species - but some Neo-Darwinists have invested a certain stock in evolution through competition among different species. In other words, humans, with their somewhat advanced altruistic ways, were able to help each other survive as a species better and longer than prehistoric bears or sabertooth tigers.

    I offer you Robert Trivers, the "evolutionary revolutionary" ...
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ide...ionary?pg=full
    Last edited by rinselberg; 11-05-2005 at 06:10 AM.

    Are you reading more posts and enjoying it less? Make RadioFreeRinsel your next Internet port of call ...

  10. #60
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill West
    Rev 20:11
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Rev 20:13
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)
    I take it that does not mean hindus, pagans, jehova's witnesses, moslems and any other faith then?

  11. #61
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    I don't see any use debating your post up to this point. I don't think we'd get anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    No one is raised i a vacuum. Morals/values are instilled from birth by whoever raises a child. The USSR was an atheistic state, but its citizens were not necessarily atheists.
    But of COURSE we are raised in a vacuum! Isn't that the point of the big bang and evolution (and of Neitsche- sp?)? We are all raised in a vacuum on an organized jumble of atoms called the earth that hosts a bunch of organized strands of DNA called homo sapiens. The universe is just a blob of chance with no particular purpose, destiny, or destination (other than to devolve back into randomness). Where, pray tell, does morality fit into this system? Why should a child have ANY inclination to believe in anything his/her parent does? To what end? By acting in a certain way, will we better our own existance (for that matter, what constitutes a better existance- better than what)? "I think, therefore I am!" Okay, than whatever you think makes up what you are- you self-determine what you will be. That leaves no room for any common morality. Its not "we think, therefore we are" (unless you're a Borg from Star Trek). Its not "He thought, therefore I am." Be absolutely clear on this point, atheism leaves no room for a common morality of man (perhaps one of convenience, but not a prescriptive- or "ought to"- morality with any substance). There is no definition of "better," "ought," "more right," or any other superlative if atheism is in fact true. At least not one that can be applied to more than one individual.
    Proto-humans were raised in a vacuum. They created the gods to explain that which they didn't understand. Since then, nobody is raised in a vacuum. A child typically takes on the philosophy/values of the parent, starting at delivery. In our world, EVERY child is born into a belief system. Call it brainwashing or indoctrination, if you want. How else can you explain republicans? ;)

    Atheism results when reason and logic outweigh faith. When you see the priest hold up the chalice of wine, and the bell rings, signifying transsubstantiation, and you know damn well that it's still wine in the cup, not blood. When the man on stage saws the woman in half, and shows you she's been cut in half, then she gets out of the box whole, and you know he didn't really cut her in half and put her back together. Reason outweighs faith.

    It's not in anyone's interest, though, to totally abandon some of these most ingrained values, and may not even be possible. Those who reject the values of society are called sociopaths, and are locked away in prison or a mental institution. If you posit that an atheist is amoral, which I disagree with, and they are strictly out for themselves, why would they behave in a way that would get them locked up? That's not going to benefit them. I believe atheists can be moral, just as theists can (and neither are always). It certainly makes life easier. Do you believe QDO1 makes decisions based solely on his self-interest and contrary to the best interest of society any more than you do?
    ...Just ask me...

  12. #62
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    If you posit that an atheist is amoral, which I disagree with, and they are strictly out for themselves, why would they behave in a way that would get them locked up? That's not going to benefit them. I believe atheists can be moral, just as theists can (and neither are always). It certainly makes life easier. Do you believe QDO1 makes decisions based solely on his self-interest and contrary to the best interest of society any more than you do?
    I think I can make decisions based on balance, as opposed to making decisions with the baggage of religion pounding in my head. Many of my values, probrably surpass that of the religious, for exactly that reason. Personally speaking, I am basically a pacifist, abhor all 'issims - rasisim, sexism, ageism etc. I probrably think more about the environment, and my personal impact on others more than most do. I try to learn about other cultures, arts, reasonings and methodologies.. and even if they are not for me, I can co-exist allong side them

  13. #63
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Pete,

    How do you reconcile your political position with your religious position? When Katrina wiped out New Orleans, the conservative republican (your) position seemed to be that the people should have gotten out and it's their own fault that they didn't so suck it up. Yet the Christian position would be to go help your fellow brothers and sisters. How do you reconcile these two seemingly opposing positions?

    My third favorite scene in the movie airplane is when the plane is crashing and they show a parody of Point/Counterpoint. The conservative says "I say let 'em die! They knew what they were getting into when they bought the tickets". A true conservative.
    ...Just ask me...

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    Updated List

    Just so we all know who is who, please respond using letter only.

    a) I believe in God and Satan but worship God and reject Satan.
    b) I believe in God and Satan but worship Satan and reject God.
    c) I believe in God and Satan but worship neither.
    d) I believe in and worship only God.
    e) I believe in and worship only Satan.
    f) I don't believe in or worship God or Satan.
    g) I don't know what to believe.

    h) I believe in and worship "the Goddess."
    i) I'm sitting on the fence. (Spexvet)

  15. #65
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairtime
    Just so we all know who is who, please respond using letter only.

    a) I believe in God and Satan but worship God and reject Satan.
    b) I believe in God and Satan but worship Satan and reject God.
    c) I believe in God and Satan but worship neither.
    d) I believe in and worship only God.
    e) I believe in and worship only Satan.
    f) I don't believe in or worship God or Satan.
    g) I don't know what to believe.
    h) I believe in and worship "the Goddess."
    i) I'm sitting on the fence. (Spexvet)
    definatally looking for a slap

  16. #66
    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    definatally looking for a slap
    Or two

  17. #67
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqui
    Or two
    im not married, and allready the wife is in charge...

  18. #68
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    here is a little food for thought from the Greek Philosopher Epicurus



    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?

  19. #69
    Bad address email on file QDO1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill West
    Ps 14:1
    1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (KJV)
    Hey Bill - as you only seem to communicate in quotes from the bible... we might come to the bible later... I have one for you

    "Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge, but a fool layeth open his folly"

    Proverbs 13:16

  20. #70
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    I believe there is no god. Is that specific enough?

    The phrase I do not believe IN god, implys there is one to believe in
    Thank you for your reply.

    I hope that you live your life as you please. I hope that you wrest every last drop of pleasure and enjoyment that you can from your sixty to ninety year life span. I am sorry that you will be dust in thirty to sixty years.

    It was nice knowing you.

    Please do not say, someday, that you were not told of the truth.

  21. #71
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Could life on earth have been planted by aliens or could humans have been from another planet, stranded here?
    No. But that's becoming more popular, as the holes in the theory of evolution are more obvious. Google astrophysicist Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickirimingshe (spelling is brutal) who have been proponents of this theory.

    The thinking is that there hasn't been enough time on earth for all the random mutation to produce life. I've heard of statistical analyses that make it virtually impossible. So, if we suppose life were seeded here, we can buy ourselves more time by supposing some more ancient world than ours.

    Now, why or how that would've happened is beyond a lot of people.
    Last edited by drk; 11-02-2005 at 12:01 PM.

  22. #72
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QDO1
    here is a little food for thought from the Greek Philosopher Epicurus

    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Epicurus is stupid. The truth is this:
    He is able and He is willing. And that makes him "patient and loving". He's just giving everyone a chance to get it right before He judges. Epicurus should have been thankful that God has stayed His hand from his terrible wrath as long as He has. He's given me, at least, the opportunity to be born, come to Him, and spend eternity with Him.

    Don't get it wrong, short-sighted Epicurus. Your day is coming.

  23. #73
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    I was not aware that evolution was in such disrepute. Are there any (non-religion based) universities who have dropped evolution from their biology cirriculum? My understanding is not.

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    Did Darwin recant his theorys in his last days and proclaim Christ as his saviour.....I thought I read this somewhere. In any case if you all came from monkeys great, I came from GOD.
    Cindy

  25. #75
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    I was not aware that evolution was in such disrepute. Are there any (non-religion based) universities who have dropped evolution from their biology cirriculum? My understanding is not.
    Suprisingly, the liberal bastions of truth we call universities by an large still support evolutionary theory.

    I guess that makes evolution true.

    I guess all the talk about problems with evolution and the switch to intelligent design is just a bunch of bible-thumping Bob Jones University stuff.

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