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Thread: Is the London attack........

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    Master OptiBoarder rep's Avatar
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    Is the London attack........

    the opening attack in the ultimate culture war?

    If you think not read and defend this very disturbing article.

    The whimsy of cultural diversity may kill us all.

    http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=8033

    Rep

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    Hi Rep,
    You knew me fairly well. I have attached a letter to our editor of two newspaperspapers in my area. We have this going on nationally as well as many things going on in our state. Our legislators opted to give them selves a raise which would make them the second highest in the country. Several including many Republicans and Democrats won't accept it but those who have been in office so long voted for it. Namely the individuals in my areas, Dark Beak and Cronie.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Master OptiBoarder rep's Avatar
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    Hi Bev

    I commend your campaign, but is it enough?

    As I watch cable news and the evacuation of Birmingham, I wonder if what the author of this article says is true?

    Have we become so accomodating to those with cultural and religious differences that we are losing our own Christian-nurtured culture in the U. S., as Britian and Europe have?

    If, as many have already speculated, that the London bombing is the result of terror cells inside Britian, can anything but a backlash against the Islamic-nurtured culture be the end result? Is it not justifiable, based on the fact that other than Oklahoma City, all terrorist bombing throughout the world, have been linked to Islamic fundamentalist?

    Having our government act against terrorist is one thing, but I am beginning to believe that we ourselves have a responsibility to participate against the war on terror. It should not be piled on just our military families.

    Can many say that the war on terror post 9/11 has changed very much in their daily lifestyles? What price have we personally paid for our freedom?

    Call it what you want, I am beginning to believe that this is a "us against them" conflict and it will not be resolved until there is no longer any of "them" willing to lift arms against us. Therefore it's time to change the rules of the game. Raising son's and daughter's to lift arms against Americans and American interest must have a price that has yet to be paid.

    The appeasers be d***. Japan and Germany had their fanatical followers and only though the annihilation of a lot of their civilian population and their culture was peace established for the last 60 years and counting. The notion that radical elements of either of those two country would come the US to bomb Americans for invading their countries and destroying their citizens and culture is laughable.

    As the author states this may only be the beginning.

    Rep

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    It is getting bad. Unforunately it is only a small percentage of Muslims, but it is becoming a strong small percentage. Here is a list of all terrorist organizations and their causes:

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908746.html

    While I do believe that the US should have gotten out of these areas a long time ago some of these things will not be compromised.

    I would like to see a compromise sought between Israel and Palestine but many groups on both sides will not rest until one eliminates the other.



    What we can hope for is two things. One, the countries breeding these groups will crackdown, ie: Saudi Arabia. Another is that the people will rise on their own and force democracy, because democracy tends to hurt terrorism (terrorism from groups againsts its own government).

    I think on the West we should encourage countries to become democratic (and real democracy, not corrupted where you stuff the ballot box) but only do it if they want our help and try not to get involved physcially.

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rep
    ... based on the fact that other than Oklahoma City, all terrorist bombing throughout the world have been linked to Islamic fundamentalists ...
    Hello rep,

    This is just an "aside" or "sidebar", but Islamic fundamentalists are not the only group that likes to kill people discriminately or indiscriminately with surprise or terror-like attacks. The IRA has done a lot of this and could conceivably start up again if things don't go forward in Ireland. There are out and out criminal gangs that may set off bombs from time to time. Japan had that crazy cult that attacked a subway station with nerve gas. But more to the point, some of the insurgents in Iraq are probably "Baathists" or remnants of the Saddam regime or reactionaries who would like to turn the clock in Iraq backwards to something like the old Saddam regime. These "Saddam" type insurgents would not be particularly Islamic fundamentalists. They are not that particular about their "brand" of Islam. They could be anything from Islamic fundamentalists to "not very much Islamic at all." That's my take.

    PS. I don't draw a large distinction between the (suspected) Islamic fundamentalists that bomb a subway station in London, Vs. the Iraqi insurgents of whatever religious or secular stripe that attack a US military convoy in the Sunni Triangle. I think my interests dictate that ALL of these essentially terrorist parties be put down and put down hard.
    Last edited by rinselberg; 07-10-2005 at 07:17 AM.

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    It was amazing how small the percentage of Germans claimed to have been Nazi after the war. Amazing how few Japanese "really supported the Emperor" after the war. I am sure it was only a "small percentage."

    I am positive that all the other Moslems are constantly denouncing the extremist members of their religion. Never sending any money for their support. And eagerly calling the FBI when any terrorists are known to be visiting in the community.

    Yeah, right!

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    One of the worst people here
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    Same with Mississippi White men and the KKK

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    Quote Originally Posted by rep
    the opening attack in the ultimate culture war?

    If you think not read and defend this very disturbing article.

    The whimsy of cultural diversity may kill us all.

    http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=8033

    Rep
    The article makes interesting reading. Its easy to slip into a worried frenzy.
    But Muslims in Britain make up currently 3% of the population and i'm sure the vast majority of them would not condone terrorost attacks.
    The infrequency of the attacks they have lain claim to is a tribute to their support/capabilities.
    Also the figures assume that Muslims are likely to carry on wanting 6 kids each indefinitely, Im sure as their numbers rise, they become more involved in careers (something women in their countries of origin were unable to do) have a better way of life etc. the less likely that will be.

    Is there anybody out there who thinks that some good may come out of all the integration the world is seeing? Or should everywhere tighten their borders?

    Rick

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    I lived in London when the IRA were doing their worst. Luckily we didn't resort to anti-Catholic mobs and riots of previous centuries. Also, among the Jewish immigrants to the East End a century ago there were a small minority of anarchist terrorists. But integration did its work within a generation or two.

    The more I have worked with Asians of several religious groups, the more I realise how much like us we are. Anyway, America might still be a Christian country, but Britain is about as secular as it is possible to be. Long may that continue. Bloody Christian fundamentalist freaks.
    Optical technicians in Britain.

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    Rep & Others,

    I do think this is only the beginning and to survive we need to be proactive not reactive. Unfortuneately writing editorials are limited to 400 words max. May be we all need to coordinate a way to make a difference.

    My next question...is this going to lead to a civil war as such in civilized nations?

    My ancestors came pre revolutionary war and fought so hard to avoid the tryanny from where they came. It is a very hard thing to call but we all better get our acts in gear and move like we haven't in so many years or we will face the end of freedom.

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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Re the article that started this thread: one of the constants over history, trying times bring out the demagogues. The Koran advised its adherents to build up to 10% of a nation's population and then make their move? Would like to see this Koran reference. And this dire warning stirs echoes of No Nothingism. And of course, slurring all Muslims feeds into the terrorists' hands. Thankfully Tony Blair sees the folly of this moronic approach.


    Let's talk turkey: the war on terror is unlike any we have ever confronted. (Object lesson: how did the British get the IRA to stop bombing London? Food for thought). There is no stationary target, the terrorists are not afraid to die--indeed they welcome it--and the support for the terrorists is hard to discern and prove at the nation level in the traditional manner (treaties, troops, occupation etc)--case in point, we invaded a country--Iraq--that had no hard ties to the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11, at the same time, we still have a close relationship with a country--Saudia Arabia--that spawned the terrorists who attacked us.

    This is the brilliance of this strategy--we don't know how to respond. It's all well and good to huff and puff and suggest bombing all the terrorist cells. The assumption that we know where these people are is absurd--remember bin Laden--beyond that, one thing we know about these groups is that they imbed in a larger community for cover and they are highly mobile.

    The critical needs are for intelligence (old fashioned infiltration especially), carrot/stick diplomacy with countries like Saudia Arabia and Egypt and others to denounce terrorists and cut off their $$$, and get the hell out of Iraq, Saudia Arabia and any other Muslim countries as soon as reasonably possible.

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    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=rep]

    Is it not justifiable, based on the fact that other than Oklahoma City, all terrorist bombing throughout the world, have been linked to Islamic fundamentalist?


    Really? The IRA? The Red Brigade? The Shining Path? Renamo? ETA? All Islamic fundamentalists huh? I had no idea.

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    Master OptiBoarder spartus's Avatar
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    Is it not justifiable, based on the fact that other than Oklahoma City, all terrorist bombing throughout the world, have been linked to Islamic fundamentalist?
    I'm curious to see where this particular meme's coming from. My uncle just tried to assert the exact same thing on Saturday.

    By the way chm, add abortion clinic bombing to your list. It's fundamentalists doing it, sure, but I don't think they're Muslim.

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    Master OptiBoarder rep's Avatar
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    The article is in the first post

    Quote Originally Posted by spartus
    I'm curious to see where this particular meme's coming from. My uncle just tried to assert the exact same thing on Saturday.

    By the way chm, add abortion clinic bombing to your list. It's fundamentalists doing it, sure, but I don't think they're Muslim.
    CHM2023

    IF you had bothered to read the article you would have picked this up.

    according to the scholarly studies by Professor Rohan Gunaratna, of St. Andrews Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence. Considered the world's leading expert on terrorist leader Osama bin Laden’sal-Qaeda network, Prof. Gunaratna also is principal investigator for the United Nations' Terrorism Prevention Branch. He notes that except for the 1995 bombing of America’s federal office building in Oklahoma City,all major terrorist attacks of the past decade in the West have been carried out by immigrants. They were not just random immigrants, but invariably from a specific religious background. During the decade since 1993, of the 212 suspected and convicted terrorists in Europe and the United States, 86% were Muslim immigrants, and most of the rest were converts to Islam, according to Prof. Gunaratna.
    When was the last bombing from any of these groups?

    The IRA? The Red Brigade? The Shining Path? Renamo? ETA?
    Other than your personal opinion, do you have any reverences saying otherwise. Remember we are talking major terrorist attacks of the past decade in the West.

    I am not personally concerned about the others, like you seem to be.

    Rep

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rep
    ...Call it what you want, I am beginning to believe that this is a "us against them" conflict and it will not be resolved until there is no longer any of "them" willing to lift arms against us. Therefore it's time to change the rules of the game. Raising son's and daughter's to lift arms against Americans and American interest must have a price that has yet to be paid.
    ...
    Rep
    Rep,
    Are you recommending a genocidal Jihad to eradicate the world of Muslims?
    ...Just ask me...

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    I tend to side with Rep on this one.I think that in order to have this (situation) come to an end, you must make the penalty so severe that no one would want to begin to think about conducting a terrorist attack. I realize by saying that, that innocent men women and children, through no fault of their own, will pay the price.

    It must incorporate innocent people because the war on terror is ultimately going to end through the intervention of innocent people. Harry Truman knew that innocents were going to be killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Thats they reason those targets were chosen. We wanted to send the message that we weren't afraid to use the A-bomb but we wanted to limit the loss of life while getting the message across.We could have chosen to put the two bombs in Tokyo which would have devastated Japan and killed a lot more people.We correctly chose restraint but still a lot of people died in a second, who had nothing to do with the war.

    If the war on terror is to be won, it will require meeting each attack with something that is tenfold more horrible.If that doesn't do it, a hundred times more horrible and a thousand times if still unsucessfull. Anyone thinking we're winning the war on terror has their head in the sand.These attacks will continue until we start doing something about it.

    I am not proud of what I have just written because it is a lousy testament to mankind, but that is, after all is said and done, the nature of war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson
    If the war on terror is to be won, it will require meeting each attack with something that is tenfold more horrible.If that doesn't do it, a hundred times more horrible and a thousand times if still unsucessfull. Anyone thinking we're winning the war on terror has their head in the sand.These attacks will continue until we start doing something about it.
    The war on terror? You mean like the successful war on drugs?

    We invaded two countries and still the suicide bombers volunteer. That's because we gave Osama Bin Laden exactly the reaction he wanted.

    Distasteful as it is, one day you and Israel will do like Blair in Northern Ireland: negtotiate and let the terrorists into government. Apparently you are already talking to them in Iraq.
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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    The situation is totally different in Northern Ireland as well as it is in Palestine.The war on drugs can't be easily compared either.The bombings in Spain and London were not suicide bombings.If we are to believe what is widely reported, Muslim fundamentalists have had pretty much a free hand in England as far as fund raising, website recruitment , etc are concerned. I think you will find that a lot different from now on.

    I too was surprised when the British press reported that the US was negotiating with terrorists in Iraq. I believe it was Bush who said we don't negotiate with terrorists.I believed nothing he said before the election so I am not disappointed in him.Appalled is a better word. His colors show through. I wonder why the conservatives in our group have failed to pick up on that.Now that its been reavealed that Carl Rove was the person who leaked the CIA operative's cover I wonder if the man who said he would fire the person responsible will actually turn coat and become a man of his word.
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    Yorkshire Grit optispares's Avatar
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    bombers identified

    The bombings in Spain and London were not suicide bombings
    It seems from the latest report that several of the bombers were suicide bombers after all . the police have identified four of the suspects three of whom are in pieces.and today have arrested another person in leeds who they think may be linked.
    http://www.optispares.btinternet.co.uk

    jack


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    Quote Originally Posted by RGC_man
    I lived in London when the IRA were doing their worst. Luckily we didn't resort to anti-Catholic mobs and riots of previous centuries. Also, among the Jewish immigrants to the East End a century ago there were a small minority of anarchist terrorists. But integration did its work within a generation or two.

    The more I have worked with Asians of several religious groups, the more I realise how much like us we are. Anyway, America might still be a Christian country, but Britain is about as secular as it is possible to be. Long may that continue. Bloody Christian fundamentalist freaks.
    Forgive me for being brass, I would like to spew horrible mean things at you for speaking ill of christians, I am a christian and take offense. Since God wouldnt want me to call you and A** Ill just say perhaps you should be nicer and consider that not all Christians are freaks....

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Sorry Jack......

    Quote Originally Posted by optispares
    It seems from the latest report that several of the bombers were suicide bombers after all . the police have identified four of the suspects three of whom are in pieces.and today have arrested another person in leeds who they think may be linked.
    The story didn't break here until 1:26PM Msnbc- I was working on the news I heard on the way into the office today.I should have said "based on the latest information I had" but alas I've been in all day!

    Suicide or not, I wonder if the perps would have proceded if they had known that as a result of their action Mecca would be destroyed without warning and unfit for human habitation for a couple of hundred years?Where would they go for the Haj then?

    I say this in the same vein of Johnathan Swift's "Modest Proposal" and to illustrate how the war on terror COULD be ended, not to advocate doing it.If there is no penalty for an act of terror, they will continue, and its a war that cannot be won.
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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cinders831
    Forgive me for being brass, I would like to spew horrible mean things at you for speaking ill of christians, I am a christian and take offense. Since God wouldnt want me to call you and A** Ill just say perhaps you should be nicer and consider that not all Christians are freaks....
    Oh, my, does it hurt to be painted with so broad a brush? Can you imagine yourself as a Muslim for about a tenth of a second? Do you see the problem here?

    Of course not all Christians are "bloody Christian fundamentalist freaks" - but the writer of that article Rep posted may well qualify as one. I'm not sure if he's precisely a racist, or a fascist, or a religious fanatic, or a devil's brew of all of these; but in a word, he stinks.

    This thread provides a delightful juxtaposition to those commentators who want to know why there are no moderate Muslim voices speaking out against the radical Muslims - you know, the ones who advocate killing all the non-Muslims? Well, where are the moderate Christian voices speaking out against the neo-Nazi poison that this writer spews, and which inspires otherwise-decent people to think that mass murder is actually a solution to something?

    Perhaps another article of his reveals his fascist philosophy more clearly:

    http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=5652

    Once again, we are in rep's debt for pointing out the kinds of warped and twisted people we have to watch out for.
    Last edited by shanbaum; 07-13-2005 at 12:39 PM. Reason: typo

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson

    Suicide or not, I wonder if the perps would have proceded if they had known that as a result of their action Mecca would be destroyed without warning and unfit for human habitation for a couple of hundred years?Where would they go for the Haj then?
    Harry, have you completely lost your mind? Destroy Mecca?

    Don't you understand that this would be a gift to bin-Laden beyond his wildest dreams?

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson

    If there is no penalty for an act of terror, they will continue, and its a war that cannot be won.
    Unless there is no POINT to an act of terror.

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    Are the British Stupid?

    Has anyone noticed that the British have stated that "appearently all the bombers were suicide bombers and were killed in the blast."
    The British have also stated that they have recovered "timing devises" from the bombing sites.
    Now, just what does a suicide bomber need with a "timing devise" on his bomb. Want time to say prayers to Allah before it goes off?

    Chip

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