Four year degree program

[Darryl Meister]

But really my point is that you are ultimately required to put more effort into maintaining your certification than it took to earn the certification in the first place. The ABO certification is not a vehicle for requiring continuing education; continuing education is primarily a component of certification renewal to ensure that opticians are keeping their skills and product knowledge current. I am asserting that it is basically putting "the cart before the horse" to make requirements for maintaining a certification more stringent than the requirements for obtaining it in the first place. Is the ABO certification a demonstration of competency, or is it a means of eventually learning to be competent after years of additional continuing education?

Best regards,
Darryl

[35oldguy]

Ed: I hope everyone reads your post. You do not get something for no work.
Education is necessary buy few people do not realize what may happen if they continue the status Quo.

The opticianry program at Ferris State College in Michigan they discontinued. Why? They have a optometry program. How many more will close?

The schools that exist today may not be around much longer "due to lack of interest".

LenscraFTERS should change their name. They do not want crafters only salespeople!

It would be in the best interest of consumers if all opticians were required to have an AAS in order to get certified
It would be in the best interest of the ODs and MDs to have better educated opticians
It would be in the best interest of al opticians to have mandatory education.

Currently opticians dont want to do anything more than they now do. You should have heard NY opticians scream when 18 hours of NY approved CEs were required every 3 years. NY opticians still want to have an apprenticeship option rather than formal education not as good as even the distance learning programs

ODs and MDs dont want educated opticians....they cost too much

Large chain stores Pearle, Cole National, Lenscrafters really do not want educated opticians and strong licenses because again costs will go up. Some years ago there was an organization formed by Pearle Cole and Lenscrafters supposedly an opticians and optometrists organization but instead was a PAC designed to take the teeth out of opticianary laws in states that had them and to lobby other states against licensing opticians. I think the organization was known as NAOO National Association of opticians and optometrists

If we do not take care of ourselves, we wont be here in a few years

Ed

[Chris Ryser]

Most people could learn to pass the current version of the exam, itself, with less than 18 hours of training. Is the motivation really continued education or the business of continued education?
Best regards,
Darryl

Darryl you are an optical wizard..............very similar to Dr. Wilkinson in the UK. You are theoretical optical specialist's by nature and of course learning.

An optician needs a good practical training, which many do not have, besides a good minimum of theory. Combined together it takes 3 - 4 years mix them any way you want.

But, it takes state or even better federal regulation to make this a successfull profession where somedy is an optician in New York and can be one in San Francisco.

Contiuned education is just updating and mostly done by manufacturers in their own interest.

[Laurie]

You are singing our song...

Thanks.

: )

We need to step up and admit that it is time to mandate formal education (in a college) for America's future opticians.

There is no valid argument against education...now we need to get everyone to jump on the band wagon.

Our two-year degree program is thriving...the Internet portion is really taking off, and it is great fun to be a part of it.

I am very optimistic about our professional future, based on our trend of enrollment and success at Hillsborough Community College (Tampa, FL). There is always room for improvement, however, we are off to a great start.

Tell a friend!

: )

Laurie

[35oldguy]

Glad to see that the message is getting around!

You are singing our song...

Thanks.

: )

We need to step up and admit that it is time to mandate formal education (in a college) for America's future opticians.

There is no valid argument against education...now we need to get everyone to jump on the band wagon.

Our two-year degree program is thriving...the Internet portion is really taking off, and it is great fun to be a part of it.

I am very optimistic about our professional future, based on our trend of enrollment and success at Hillsborough Community College (Tampa, FL). There is always room for improvement, however, we are off to a great start.

Tell a friend!

: )

Laurie

[Ed_Optician]

Every college of optometry would benefit by having an affiliated school of opticianry. Some of the instructors would be able to teach in both programs and the public would benefit from both the student ODs and student opticians in their clinics. In fact when I was a student, NYCTC had an instructor from SUNY college of optometry teach anatomy and physiology of the eye. It was a most enlightening experience. I learned more about anatomy in that one semester than I will ever need as an optician.
We need to look back at the schools that we lost Canyada College in Redwood City CA, Ferris State in Michigan and Mater Dei in NY. But we need to say we want education and need it despite what the corporate giants and the OD and MD lobbies think.
We can ask all opticians to get an AAS degree or ask the ABO to require at least some colege level work as a pre requisite to begin with and gradualy improve ourprofession. NJ has a 2 tier educational system I think 32 credits in ophthalmic science or a 68? credit AAS degree other states encourage education but may not require it as they offer an alternative apprenticeship program. I am looing forward to the day when every optician is much more than a "temple bender"

Ed

[wmcdonald]

We unfortunately have lost the schools Ed mentions, but all is not lost. There are many schools doing fine and growing, and in fact new programs as well. University of Arkansas Mountain Home has a new program that is Internet-based, as does Vermont and Hawaii. We lose a few and gain a few. The whole point is this; moving from state to state as Chris has mentioned will be easy wheh we have some common ground. If an Optician in NC and an Optician in California are similarly trained it will be easier to transport a license. Then legislation can come, much like Optometry is doing currently. Education is the key.

[HarryChiling]

I think education is definately key in the progress of our proffesion, but do not discount the opticians that have learned on the job. I am one who has learned on the job and I would put my knowledge of opticianry up against most in the industry. I make more money selling glasses than when I was fabricating. I was not hired for my knowledge I was hired because I could sell ice water to an eskimo. What sometimes my boss takes for granted is that I can sell just about any of our products because of my knowledge of the product. Yes education is great and all, but:

1.) College is getting more and more expensive.

2.) It does not ensure that you are getting a well educated person. (My old room mate graduated with a 3.5 GPA by taking nothing but easy classes. She also thought Vermont was a country in the middle of Canada.)

I would be more inclined for a national test (not the ABO it's too easy) that would be used to judge the competency and to grant licensure. I think the road to increasing our respect as a proffesion is to lobby harder like the OD's and OMD's do.

[35oldguy]

Ed

>I do not consider myself as a temple bender! Too me those people are the ones that have no knowledge and probably worked at Burger King the week before.

Every office weather it be OD,MD, or Optican owned should put all their effort behind our profession. I do not know how many millions of people need glasses in the world but I think that there is enough to go around for everyone to make a decent living. Let us stop being so greedy!

Every college of optometry would benefit by having an affiliated school of opticianry. Some of the instructors would be able to teach in both programs and the public would benefit from both the student ODs and student opticians in their clinics. In fact when I was a student, NYCTC had an instructor from SUNY college of optometry teach anatomy and physiology of the eye. It was a most enlightening experience. I learned more about anatomy in that one semester than I will ever need as an optician.
We need to look back at the schools that we lost Canyada College in Redwood City CA, Ferris State in Michigan and Mater Dei in NY. But we need to say we want education and need it despite what the corporate giants and the OD and MD lobbies think.
We can ask all opticians to get an AAS degree or ask the ABO to require at least some colege level work as a pre requisite to begin with and gradualy improve ourprofession. NJ has a 2 tier educational system I think 32 credits in ophthalmic science or a 68? credit AAS degree other states encourage education but may not require it as they offer an alternative apprenticeship program. I am looing forward to the day when every optician is much more than a "temple bender"

Ed

[Ed_Optician]

I am not calling you a temple bender. I am sure that you are competant at what you do. To me a temple bender is someone who knows just enough to pass the ABO and has little interest in the profession other than to fill time and colect a paycheck. A true optician is always learning and trying to improve their skills and is always looking for a way to make their customer/patient more comfortable with their optical goods.
I am a proponent of formal education in this field. I came from a state where formal education was the way to get licensed on the first attempt. I am still in favor of formal education in all states. As you may have read in my past posts I am also in favor of advanced level recognition of achievement as in post AAS certificates and advanced level certification from ABO/NCLE which we have
In terms of licensure I find it hard to believe that we cannot have any reciprocity between states regarding licensure. There are 3 states in close proximity of each other. NJ does not permit opticians to fit contact lenses. NY next state over permits fitting of CLs by an Ophthalmic dispenser with a secondary endorsement on their license. One state over in CT every optician is a licensed CL fitter. All of this within one hours travel on I-95

Ed

[wmcdonald]

We are talking about the future for this profession. Your individual knowledge is superior I am sure, but we are not talking about you. That kind of thinking is what is holding us back! Please do not take the education issue as a personal affront, because some of the best Opticians I know were apprentice-trained. Darrell Meister is a brilliant young man. Richard Hamilton, one of my early mentors was as assistant professor at Duke Eye Center and was apprentice-trained and only had a high school diploma. We must have some basic level of education to survive in today's market. Apprenticeship alone is simply not viable. The old masters who trained apprentices decades ago are long gone, and what we have today is not getting the job done.

To the national test idea; it has been discussed for years to no avail. The ABO as we know it is the result. We must consider this issue from several sides; political, social, and economic. The need for advanced education has been proven socially by many and to develop a new test will not do nearly what a degree will do. Politically a degree is a must for us to advance, and economically, those with degrees "generally" - that does not mean you individually- make superior money to those without. As a matter of fact, a BA degree holder will make 1 million more than a high school graduate. Again, there are cases like Bill Gates, but in general terms a degree is what we need, not another well-intentioned test.

[35oldguy]

Exactly... Education is what will bend the ears of the póliticians.

We are talking about the future for this profession. Your individual knowledge is superior I am sure, but we are not talking about you. That kind of thinking is what is holding us back! Please do not take the education issue as a personal affront, because some of the best Opticians I know were apprentice-trained. Darrell Meister is a brilliant young man. Richard Hamilton, one of my early mentors was as assistant professor at Duke Eye Center and was apprentice-trained and only had a high school diploma. We must have some basic level of education to survive in today's market. Apprenticeship alone is simply not viable. The old masters who trained apprentices decades ago are long gone, and what we have today is not getting the job done.

To the national test idea; it has been discussed for years to no avail. The ABO as we know it is the result. We must consider this issue from several sides; political, social, and economic. The need for advanced education has been proven socially by many and to develop a new test will not do nearly what a degree will do. Politically a degree is a must for us to advance, and economically, those with degrees "generally" - that does not mean you individually- make superior money to those without. As a matter of fact, a BA degree holder will make 1 million more than a high school graduate. Again, there are cases like Bill Gates, but in general terms a degree is what we need, not another well-intentioned test.

[HarryChiling]

I personaly believe that our educational system as a whole is going down the toilet. I am surrounded by individuals that go to college and learn how to memorize information for tests just to forget it the next day so they can memorize new information for another test. I thirst for knowledge I will not learn something if I have to forget it after some test. I would not want to take additional classes that will only distract me from my learning objectives, just so I can supposedly be a well rounded individual. Our system of education is slowly falling apart, and costing an arm and a leg. For those of you old enough to benefit from a college degree before the costs skyrocketed, and before the classes became dumbed down can cosider yourselves lucky. The information learned in college courses are what should be taught in high schools across the country. I went to one of the best in the coutry and learned calculus and physics. I was trained by idiots who only wanted to know enough to get by and they all have degrees. My boss has a college degree and he apparently was a trainor for Pearle Vision traveling the country and training lab techs. This same person does not know the dynamics behind a mirror coat. I don't think it is the lack of education, it is the lack of motivation, most opticians my brother in law included study enough for a test and then think its over. I absorb every bit of information the industry can spew out even when I know it is biased I take the good and leave the bad, because I will not settle for average. These same individuals are going to go to college get the degrees and then stop learning and after a few years technology and changes in the industry will leave them right where they are today(but making more money). I believe that it is a shamed that there is no reciprocity between states, but that is a legislative issue that needs to be fought with legislation, throwing education at it solves nothing. Had there been a requirement for a college degree to be licensed as an optician I or some of the posters on this site wouldn't be here. Education does not equal a good Optician.

I agree with everyone here that our profession does not get the respect that it deserves, but I don't think it is the lack of education. The great opticians are some of the most educated people I know, and school had nothing to do with it.

Our politicians don't care anything about education, if you don't believe that go to any courthouse, jail, or congressmans office and then go to some schools in the country. It is the schools with broken windows and no heat. Education is only a platform for election.

[jediron1]

Ed_Optician
It would be in the best interest of consumers if all opticians were required to have an AAS in order to get certified
It would be in the best interest of the ODs and MDs to have better educated opticians
It would be in the best interest of al opticians to have mandatory education.

Currently opticians dont want to do anything more than they now do. You should have heard NY opticians scream when 18 hours of NY approved CEs were required every 3 years. NY opticians still want to have an apprenticeship option rather than formal education not as good as even the distance learning programs

ODs and MDs dont want educated opticians....they cost too much

Large chain stores Pearle, Cole National, Lenscrafters really do not want educated opticians and strong licenses because again costs will go up. Some years ago there was an organization formed by Pearle Cole and Lenscrafters supposedly an opticians and optometrists organization but instead was a PAC designed to take the teeth out of opticianary laws in states that had them and to lobby other states against licensing opticians. I think the organization was known as NAOO National Association of opticians and optometrists

If we do not take care of ourselves, we wont be here in a few years

Ed

It's always nice to see someone spout off about a state he does not live in, maybe you did and if you had lived in N.Y. and were licensed I would say you were ill informed. One of the reasons and not the only reason that N.Y. Opticians were screaming as you say was because they had no differentiation for New York licensed before ABO (Mickey Mouse Exam)
or after. They were treating them the same, and believe me there is a world of difference from the exam I took to the MICKEY MOUSE ABO!
Also at the time they did not know how they were going to administer
the CE's or how they would be accountable, all this had to be ironed out
before. These are only a couple of reason's we were "screaming"! And your others so called facts are dubious at best. The apprenticeship program has a three year ban where in you must practice for three years under the direction of an Optican or Doctor then you may apply to take the exam or you can go to an approve college. These are not all the reguirements but at least it is not as simple as Ed
Optician led us to believe!

At least in one point Ed is right that the big three did conspire to keep Opticians in bay by trying to take the "teeth out of opticianary laws in states that had them"

And Ed where were you when we had the boot of N.Y. law at our throats and all your fellow compatriots on this board I never heard or saw one of you write N.Y. state condeming them for what they did. We fought the fight and lost don't go around saying we were screaming because of the CE's we were screaming for a lot more then you realize!

[jediron1]

[QUOTE=HarryChiling]I personaly believe that our educational system as a whole is going down the toilet. Education does not equal a good Optician.

I quess that about sums it all up. So the next time any one needs open heart
surgery go to Africa and look up a good witch doctor! Or when your car needs fixing go to the guy with that eighth grade education to work on your 2005 car
with all the computer software to fix it. Where do we get these people, WMC must be on a recruitment detail! UNBELIEVABLE!:hammer: Ya education does not equal a good optician like a surgeon does not equal a good knife! I m getting a headache! I was going to use knife to surgeon but I like it this way! I still have a headache! Give me two, I think Alice said the white one would make her small maybe if I took the tan one it would take away my headache of this thread! But then again they also said Alice would be ten feet tall! Got to get off the Jefferson Airplane trip!

[Ian Jordan]

All education guarantees is minimum standards, not maximum attainment.
One of the best things a degree level training gives is parity of knowledge levels (greater than optometrists in some areas) with the optician an expert on lenses and visual optics. A partnership with optometry can flourish in a similar way to that of a doctor and pharmacist.
The question is "Is it cost effective and better for the public to have knowledgable opticians with a guaranteed minimum standard of training, and if so what standard should be the minimum?"

Self teaching can be fine if you are motivated and have good support, for many it is not an acceptable option. New ideas may not however perculate into a practice situation unless they are immediately commercial and consequently self training may be inadequate in all but a few cases.
Change is inevitable, management of the change is vital.

[Jason Carruthers]

A recent classified ad sums it all up:

"National eyeglass retailer seeks to acquire regional chain stores. Non-licensed states preferred."

[Ibalz]

P.S. If optometry and opticianry both required a 4 year degree, would you really choose opticianry?[/QUOTE]

As someone who is currently going through the motions, I have to interject...

You can't forget that there happens to be three full years of prerequisites to complete before one can even think about attending Optometry school. :angry:

[chip anderson]

Gee and I can remember when a year at Cougar High (U of H) was enough.

[35oldguy]

Everyone has to start from the ground up! I bet you through your experience have gained a lot of knowledge called learning by doing.

Any profession that requires an accredited program is just a base. In the real world you apply what you learned and through the experience that you gain you are able to become better at what you do!!

I wonder how many politicians start out being experts!!

Gee and I can remember when a year at Cougar High (U of H) was enough.

[wmcdonald]

In an earlier post, a question was asked whether or not one would choose Optometry vs. Opticianry if we required a 4-year degree. I think it could be a stepping stone for Opticians to advance in many ancilary fields. If we don't have a bachelor's degree, then we have little leeway. For example, Optometry requires a bachelor's degree for admission in most of their schools now. Opticians who wanted to move on to Optometry schools would have the entry requirements taken care of in their undergraduate experience. Likewise, Opticians with a bachelor's degree could move on to administration, or other avenues with the right background, which we do not currently have. I suspect most of those who suggest that the need for a degree is not important support the continuance of apprenticeship training. This mode of educational delivery has been found inadequate in study after study to train folks in many skillls an Optician needs to effectively practice. It will probably be the method most folks scontinue to support, and I contend that until we get away from this myopic view of the world we will continue to languish in mediocrity. How can anyone argue against education? We are the only profession left without a degree requirement. We must be better prepared......

[35oldguy]

"The information learned in college courses are what should be taught in high schools across the country."


Sounds like the education in the high schools is not too good if they have to teach it in the universities.

President Bush needs to get his school program a kick in the butt!!

[Jason Carruthers]

If opticianry required a degree, opticians would become extinct. Some candidates would be unable or unwilling to obtain a degree. The rest would become optometrists.

[35oldguy]

Shame people do not recognize the need for a better education!

I just read your profile. Maybe you could give them an online Dale Carnegie course. Maybe they just need to up their self-esteem!

If opticianry required a degree, opticians would become extinct. Some candidates would be unable or unwilling to obtain a degree. The rest would become optometrists.

[wmcdonald]

Opticians can and should move into new areas that can and will be exciting for them. If all they are to do is measure PDs and take seg heights, you are correct. To advance an education is required. I am and always will be proud to be an Optician. Education has opened up many doors for me and I want my peers to be able to experience the same opportunities. But......you can lead a horse to water....the drinking part you cannot make them do. I believe if we had stronger requirements, we would draw higher calibre folks. We will never be extinct!