fee for onliners

[cinders831]

Ok, Our office has decided to set a fee for pt's whom do business online. We are contimplating a charge for Single Vision, Bi and Trifocals as well as Progressives. We are figuring the fee would include measurements and adjustments. We are also contimplating a lens insertion fee. This has only came about one time but I cant stand the idea of giving away our services free. I know this has been discussed in other threads but an actual fee hasnt, that I can find. So is anyone actually charging? What are you doing for fees. What is the reception by the pt? Any input would be super and thanks in advance!

Cindy

[For-Life]

So you mean if someone wants to order glasses online you will gladly do the measurements and fittings, but for a fee?

[Judy Canty]

What a fabulous idea! Perhaps couple it with a "frequent flyer" card redeemable for $$-off their next IN-STORE eyewear purchase. I'm thinking $25 for initial visit and one follow-up, then "service" dates, with a small fee, like you get from your car dealer to get them used to coming in.

[ken@foothills]

Part of the problem of charging for services is you have trouble seperating your paying customers from outside sources, usually I don't find out that they got their glasses from somewhere else until after the fact. However, I don't think it is unfair to charge five dollars for an adjustment and fifteen or twenty dollars for taking measurements, that is the going rate for a saftey glass write up. As far as the persons reaction they probably will be upset since it is cutting into their "Savings". If you feel uncomfortable with charging for your services, have a donation jar for a charitable organiztion sitting at your work area. They will feel good about them selves and so will you.:cheers:

[chip anderson]

When you do this you become part of the food chain, liable for whatever.


Once tried to form a board of the 3 O's to evaluate quality of frames. Got told that if we did same and said something was good and it turned out to be junk, we became liable for patient dissatisfaction, poor performance etc.

Chip

[drk]

This is a bad trend, not unlike online CL retailers, but worse.
I think we take a stand:

"I'm sorry, but I feel it is professionally unethical to be a part of an illegal practice. Our office will not provide measurement services for on-line glasses retailers."

We have to nip this thing in the bud. The scum that flout the individual states' dispensing laws by working in this grey area are to be obstructed at every turn. If we give in to this, we're going to enable a bad thing to happen.

JUST SAY NO

[rinselberg]

Perhaps an eye patient's viewpoint would be appreciated.

I think that offering to assist an online buyer with charges for measurements, lens insertion and frame fitting makes sense if the customer wants to bring you a frame that he (she) has bought online that is a frame that you could not retail yourself. A discontinued frame that the customer has managed to locate online, or a frame from a line that you do not regularly carry and would not be in a good position to order. Ideally, you would first take the measurements to ensure that the frame that the customer wants is usable, and then when the customer buys the frame online and brings it to you, you charge for the lens insertion and/or frame fitting. The customer would have to make sure that the frame is returnable to the online seller for an exchange (or better, a refund) if the frame is defective or for whatever reason turns out to be unusable.

But I must admit, I do not know the larger ramifications of you brick-and-mortar retailers forming this kind of loose partnership with online retailers.

rinselberg is NOT an optical retailer!

[35oldguy]

JUST SAY NO


Sounds like the best policy!

This is a bad trend, not unlike online CL retailers, but worse.
I think we take a stand:

"I'm sorry, but I feel it is professionally unethical to be a part of an illegal practice. Our office will not provide measurement services for on-line glasses retailers."

We have to nip this thing in the bud. The scum that flout the individual states' dispensing laws by working in this grey area are to be obstructed at every turn. If we give in to this, we're going to enable a bad thing to happen.

JUST SAY NO

[LENNY]

I already had this happened to me!

the patient comes in with a POF and asks me to cut down his new lenses to his old frame!
The lenses that he presents me with are: High index Progressive Transition Lenses with AR!
They were sent to him from China!
And cost him 1/12 of our price!
This is the next thing!

[For-Life]

Sometimes just saying no is not enough.

I think it is important to keep an eye on these things. Saying no is okay for now, but if the demand and customer base changes we will need to adapt.

Personally, if we make a fee for just fitting that might not be bad. We do not have to worry about any costs associated with inventory, warranties, rx changes, ect.

[35oldguy]

Just saY NO. iF YOU CANNOT MAKE A FAIR PROFIT TELL THEM TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR THERE CHEAP EYEWEAR. oR BETTER YET HAND THEM YOUR BILL FOR ELECTRICITY. MAYBE THEN THEY WILL UNDERSTAND.

Sometimes just saying no is not enough.

I think it is important to keep an eye on these things. Saying no is okay for now, but if the demand and customer base changes we will need to adapt.

Personally, if we make a fee for just fitting that might not be bad. We do not have to worry about any costs associated with inventory, warranties, rx changes, ect.

[rinselberg]

Perhaps an eye patient's viewpoint would be appreciated.

I think that offering to assist an online buyer with charges for measurements, lens insertion and frame fitting makes sense if the customer wants to bring you a frame that he (she) has bought online that is a frame that you could not retail yourself. A discontinued frame that the customer has managed to locate online, or a frame from a line that you do not regularly carry and would not be in a good position to order. Ideally, you would first take the measurements to ensure that the frame that the customer wants is usable, and then when the customer buys the frame online and brings it to you, you charge for the lens insertion and/or frame fitting. The customer would have to make sure that the frame is returnable to the online seller for an exchange (or better, a refund) if the frame is defective or for whatever reason turns out to be unusable.

But I must admit, I do not know the larger ramifications of you brick-and-mortar retailers forming this kind of loose partnership with online retailers.

rinselberg is NOT an optical retailer!

Perhaps you would also require that the customer buys the lenses from you (brick and mortar retailer) and only the frame from the online seller. I am not sure how this would leave the WARRANTY on the frame and lenses, but I did want to add this thought.

[Johns]

I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. The liability issue that Chip brings up is very real.



DON"T BRING THAT JUNK INTO MY STORE!!!!!

[Judy Canty]

Liability for what, exactly? Measurements? Your measurements should be kept in a patient file. Copy for the customer; copy for the file. Deviations from those measurements are the responsibility of the fabricator/dispenser/on-line retailer. Quality of materials? Also the responsibility of the f/d/o-lr. Defective materials? D/F/O-LR, again. Breakage during adjustments or other repairs? You guessed it...D/F/O-RL. I didn't provide advice on the frame or lens selection, so I'm not liable for that either. I didn't fabricate the eyewear so no liability there either. I don't consider myself ethically-challenged. I'm simply getting better at looking forward. I figure that if I can get these folks in my store often enough, I've got a fighting chance to get their business. After all, they've got to come in to see me no matter what.

So far as ethics are concerned, I have a problem with MD's/OD's in licensed states utilizing unlicensed employees and calling them "opticians." And I have a problem with the same group of professionals advertising themselves as "Opticians" in the local Yellow Pages...but that's another rant for another time.

[cinders831]

Wow! I love Optiboard you guys are great and these are great suggestions. This came about because a long time pt found a frame online and "assumed" it would be cheaper, he called to ask if I would put his good lenses into the broken frame. The frame was 4 years old and any wtys had expired. I told him I would and off the cuff mentioned a professional fee that included insertion and 1 adjustment. I felt my stomach churn at the conversation and I thought is this really happening to our office right now? In any case after speaking to coworkers I realized we need to take a stance. First and most imortant we need to decide to become indespencable. So great that absolutely no one can live optically comfortable lives with out us and therefore they will have no desires to go online. Should this not happen however...we need a plan. I love all of the points presented here and will share them with the rest of the staff and hopefully report back ideas. I loved reading both sides, pro and against and will take all into consideration. Thanks Optiboarders and keep the awesome thoughts coming!!!

Cindy

[drk]

Sometimes just saying no is not enough.

I think it is important to keep an eye on these things. Saying no is okay for now, but if the demand and customer base changes we will need to adapt.

You won't have to adapt. You'll be out of business if you even THINK about going along with this absurdity.

[drk]

I'm simply getting better at looking forward. I figure that if I can get these folks in my store often enough, I've got a fighting chance to get their business. After all, they've got to come in to see me no matter what.

Judy, this is a weak argument. Do something you know is wrong just for the opportunity to make money off these people down the road?

[drk]

THINK, PEOPLE!

If no one goes along with this, it dies a slow death. If we say "oh, well, I've got to adapt..." or "well, someone's going to do it, I might as well get mine..." then we are signing our death warrants.

I'm not scared that this will succeed, but it will become more and more prevalent, and Opticianry needs a strong voice against this kind of thing.

THIS IS A TEST OF YOUR PROFESSIONALISM. OR ARE YOU JUST IN IT FOR THE MONEY?

[shellrob]

I totally agree with Drk. Just say no. I've had a few patients in my office that asked me to take measurements for them because they wanted to buy their glasses online. No way. I told them no. My reasoning doesn't even have to do with liability, it has to do with I don't want to hear from them when their glasses come back and somethings wrong. They'll come in my office asking me if the measurements I took were right, they'll ask you to check the rx, do adjustements, etc. And when the problem cannot be fixed by those things, guess who they're going to blame? Hmmm..... I wonder.

[For-Life]

You won't have to adapt. You'll be out of business if you even THINK about going along with this absurdity.

I am not saying it now. Maybe 1 in every 1000 or more are doing it. What happens if it goes down to 1 in every 100.

I am just saying that we have to stay aware.

[Aarlan]

Here's a question...
If a patient is entitled to their records, what's to keep a former patient from requesting their own records and using the pd from that? The seg height is set 'using a mathmatical formula,' according to one online site.
I would almost like to see some folks try this method of purchasing eyeglasses. Just as when patients go to the Big Box warehouse clubs, they will inevitably come back to us for our quality, service and knowledge. Our biggest fans are the customers who left because they were lured by 'low prices', and then came right back the next time they needed glasses because they found it isn't the same product or service level.
I'd love to hear what the customers feel they will do regarding service after the sale (adjustments, repair, Rx problems, etc.), and if they honestly think we'll spend our time and effort adjusting, repairing, and problem solving for a pair made.
A few years ago, LC was charging folks for minor repairs ($5 nosepad replacements, etc) if the glasses weren't purchased from them. If they kept the receipts they could apply that to a future purchase at LC. I don't know if they still do it, but I don't think it is that bad an idea. It enforces that our time effort and expertise are not free. If you can 30 miles farther to purchase your glasses and save $25, then feel free to drive that 30 miles again when they fall apart. We as a group have historically provided these types of services for free, thinking that in the future these people would return to purchase from us, but all it seems we have accomplished is fostering an environment that patients expect our services for free. It is more apparent that more people are bringing outside products into our office for us to do what the discounters couldn't or wouldn't do properly. Maybe LC was on to something.

AA

[Judy Canty]

THIS IS A TEST OF YOUR PROFESSIONALISM. OR ARE YOU JUST IN IT FOR THE MONEY?

Am I more professional if I give away my skills and services? Are OD's less professional when they offer a free eye exam or a "refund" of the cost with the purchase of eyewear? I am a professional who likes to make money as well, otherwise I'd be volunteering my services where ever they were needed.

[rsandr]

This is a bad trend, not unlike online CL retailers, but worse.
I think we take a stand:

"I'm sorry, but I feel it is professionally unethical to be a part of an illegal practice. Our office will not provide measurement services for on-line glasses retailers."

We have to nip this thing in the bud. The scum that flout the individual states' dispensing laws by working in this grey area are to be obstructed at every turn. If we give in to this, we're going to enable a bad thing to happen.

JUST SAY NO

Or you could get left behind, things change & maybe we should move with the changes. I cant imagine you will ever stamp on it, surely it is better to try to make it work to everyones advantage.

[ikon44]

Sometimes just saying no is not enough.

I think it is important to keep an eye on these things. Saying no is okay for now, but if the demand and customer base changes we will need to adapt.

Personally, if we make a fee for just fitting that might not be bad. We do not have to worry about any costs associated with inventory, warranties, rx changes, ect.

Imagine a company as big and as ruthless as 800 contacts,but one that specialises in specs ... dont laugh it could happen.

I am sure that when 800 contacts started requesting patient contact lens details, a few opticians probably thought, it,s only a few, it,s not a big problem; cant do anything about it....

Look at what that attitude has done to your contact lens business:

by cooperating with these people you appear like a bunch of lemmings lookling for the nearest cliff to jump off.

:hammer:

[shellrob]

There's a huge difference between dispensing contacts online vs glasses. Not that either is right, but there is a difference.