fee for onliners

[ikon44]

Cool. Link?

it is offline at the moment, as i am having some work done on it, one of the major companies here (specsavers) has started selling Night and Day at give away prices and i am addressing this.
will send the link when up and running again.

[Judy Canty]

Ok, this "devil's advocate" stuff has been fun and interesting, however, some of you have begun to take it very personally and have begun SHOUTING. I suggest we dial it back a bit.

1. I consider myself a professional Optician and have for the 32 years I've been a part of this industry. Unfortunately the majority of the Optometric community does not consider me and my peers to be professional anythings nor do the corporate employers. In fact their professional associations are first in line to lobby against state licensure legislation. Of course, I would also mention that the vast majority of Opticians in the US are NOT members of their state and national organizations, rendering them less than powerful to affect substantive changes in the legislative area.

2. I don't like on-line optical retailers and have only provided measurements one (1) time in my career. The bigger threat to our industry is the confusion created when all three "O's" begin to slice into each others defined roles, for instance dispensing Opthalmologists and Optometric physicians. And of course those shops whose business is built upon "2 fer's with a free eye exam".

3. I strongly support formal post-secondary education as the entry level for practicing Opticianry. This is supported verbally by almost every Optician asked, but in practice they will also say that a college-educated Optician is too expensive to hire. Opticianry programs nationwide are fighting every day to maintain enrollment. Opticians bemoan the "easy-ness" of the ABO exam, yet fail to understand that the members of the ABO-NCLE are appointed by the national organizations they refuse to join. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and cry.

4. I will continue to write and to teach, because after these many years I believe that I have something to offer younger practicioners and that I have been blessed with enough writing skills to do so.

5. I do not believe that a large percentage of our patient (customer) base will purchase on-line any more that I believed that soft contact lenses or refractive surgery would spell the end of eyeglasses for visual correction. Most people prefer the pleasantries of human contact.

So, while everyone cools down, I believe I'll go clean my sewing room.

[Chris Ryser]

You are essentially saying that you don't give a crap about what they buy online, but for a small fee, you'll participate. ARE YOU THAT DESPERATE? ARE YOU THAT UNPROFESSIONAL? IS THERE PROFESSIONALISM IN OPTICIANRY? HECK, IT'S ENTIRELY HYPOCRITICAL TO PUSH FOR LICENSURE FOR THE.....

Second point: If you can't see that this is ultimately horrible for your profession as well, you are confoundingly short-sighted. I'm too exasperated to spell out the A-B-C's and 1-2-3's of this.

I'm thoroughly disgusted. The lack of understanding, hypocrisy, and talking out of both sides of your mouths kills me. ..........

Keep on writing articles about the nuances of fitting progressives, and then supply measurements for a person to do it themselves. ................ Actions speak louder than words.

drk, I just loved your explosive outburst and you got some good points. I am just wondering how come not one of the optical magazines is picking up the idea and start being just a bit critical on this subject. I bet you they dont have the guts to do it.

This is a highly professional politics issue. The almighty Dollar is the king and greed is his servant forever.

I totally with you on this one. Why don't you start a poll and ask the right questions on this subject and take a vote.

[Snitgirl]

drk,

Question: On a monthly basis, how many customers do you feel walk out with their Rx and not purchase from you?

Just curious...

[drk]

drk,

Question: On a monthly basis, how many customers do you feel walk out with their Rx and not purchase from you?

Just curious...

Seriously, less than one/month.

[Chris Ryser]

Seriously, less than one/month.

Above answer is one from an optometrist. I do not believe that people go price shopping at the optometrist.

But if you take one per month per optical retailer....that should make quite good number throughout the USA and Canada.

And if those people go to the online outfits ......they also would do quite some amount of turnover if anyone cares to figure out the amount.

[hcjilson]

Forgive me if I enchance the dictionary version:

Medical professional: 1.) a person who is a member of a profession 2.) a person charged with protecting and promoting the health of their patients.

Fragmenting care by separating the frame and lens design process from the measurement processes (in other words, letting the patient/internet drop-down list choose the frame and lens for themselves and you providing measurements, regardless of whether their choices are even remotely logical) is an abrogation of your responsibility to the patient as a professional optician. You are essentially saying that you don't give a crap about what they buy online, but for a small fee, you'll participate. ARE YOU THAT DESPERATE? ARE YOU THAT UNPROFESSIONAL? IS THERE PROFESSIONALISM IN OPTICIANRY? HECK, IT'S ENTIRELY HYPOCRITICAL TO PUSH FOR LICENSURE FOR THE PROCESS OF HISTORY, NEEDS ANALYSIS, FRAME AND LENS DESIGN, MEASUREMENTS, QUALITY CONTROL, FITTING OF A PROSTHESIS, AND FOLLOWUP CARE WHEN YOU ARE WILLING TO LET PEOPLE THROW AWAY 3/4 OF THE PROCESS ON-LINE, AND SMILE BECAUSE YOU ARE "SO HELPFUL" OR "SO COMPETITIVE AND ADAPTATIVE" BECAUSE YOU MADE SMALL CHANGE! THAT'D BE LIKE ME TAKING K'S AND SPECTACLE REFRACTION AND TELLING THE PATIENT: GO SELECT WHATEVER LENS ONLINE THAT YOU LIKE...AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU! IT'S LIKE THE REFRACTIVE SURGEON THAT WILL CUT FEES TO GET THEM IN THE DOOR AND GIVE THE PERSON THE OPTION OF SURGICAL FOLLOWUP CARE OR NOT!

How convenient to be able to misuse a word in a sentence and then enhance the definition.....
If I am correct here, you are saying the patient is not capable of choosing the lens they want or the frame they want. I say if that is their choice, and if they make a mistake, that is their fault, and the reason for it is that they went online. You cannot keep even smart people from making a mistake.

Second point: If you can't see that this is ultimately horrible for your profession as well, you are confoundingly short-sighted. I'm too exasperated to spell out the A-B-C's and 1-2-3's of this.

If you are referring to me, do not presume to know my position on the online purchase of spectacles unless you are able to quote something I have either said or written. (I've done both on the subject)

I'm thoroughly disgusted. The lack of understanding, hypocrisy, and talking out of both sides of your mouths kills me. A trained monkey can use a pupillometer (except Spexvex, hehe) or a machine can do it. How valuable of a service do you think that leaves you with? If you would like to see 50% of our patient base go online for optical care, keep on supporting them!

Perry Roberts OD once told me that he could teach a reasonably intelligent chimpanzee to refract in less than 20 min. It is not rocket science and I in no way mean to impune optometry with that statement. I am well aware of their excellent training and the fact that an eye exam is a lot more than a refraction, as is the accurate fitting of a pair of progressives somewhat more than the use of a pupilometer.

Keep on writing articles about the nuances of fitting progressives, and then supply measurements for a person to do it themselves. Keep on educating yourself so that you can understand and provide world-class care, and keep lobbying for how important it is for an optician to be an educated, state-licensed professional and then go ahead and show what you really think about taking care of people's optical needs. Actions speak louder than words.

I really wish that you would stop talking down to me/us. Your arrogance does not become you. I am educated and have been actively in this industry since 1959, and while I am sure you think you know more than I do, it is always best not to test the depth of the water with both feet.

Note: this has precious little to do with "competition". Note: taking professional fees does not a professional make. Note: Webster's concise and general description of a professional notwithstanding, I would refer you to the credo's of the professional organizations such as the AMA, AOA, or your own.

Please tell us if you will, about the credo's of the AMA and AOA, OAA, and NAO. I particularly want to hear the parts about protecting the profession and the financial part.

PS, for the record. I am against the internet sale of spectacles.As we recently found out between the FTC and 1-800, it will be extremely difficult to control.

[drk]

http://www.iit.edu/departments/csep/...mpilation.html
Whole lotta ethics going on....for a fee.

I believe that there are some things that citizens have decided that they want controlled. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think people want their health care regulated.

I do not personally impugn any individual (ok, maybe I did with Snitgirl. I was wrong to do so. And maybe I took a swipe at "devil's-advocate" Judy, but she deserved it for being incindiary:p ). Ok, I impugned.:o

I meant to strongly state what I feel is in the best interests of yourself, myself, our professions, and most of all the public which we serve and protect. The real enemies here are the quick-buck scam artist online crass merchandisers of medical goods, who have no such lofty goals.

Would you rather see a mercenary Dr. or a Dr. committed to your welfare and ethics?

[Judy Canty]

If you are referring to me, do not presume to know my position on the online purchase of spectacles unless you are able to quote something I have either said or written. (I've done both on the subject)

Actually, Harry, I think that was a pretty direct hit at me.

[Judy Canty]

I believe that there are some things that citizens have decided that they want controlled. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think people want their health care regulated.

Great! Then why does organized Optometry oppose regulated Opticianry? Do they presume to speak for the general populace?

[Judy Canty]

Just look at that...no unnecessary caps! I believe that I may have reached nirvana in my sewing room....ommmmmmmmm.:D

[drk]

Great! Then why does organized Optometry oppose regulated Opticianry? Do they presume to speak for the general populace?

I don't pretend to know. I defer to your experiences, but I would find it suprising if it were supported at the national level.

I cannot understand why any OD that wants to do the best possible job for his patients would not work in conjunction with another highly trained professional. This makes no sense to me, at all. I would support a law that required all opticians to be licensed, regardless of their practice mode. It just makes sense for everyone. It works for me, right now.
I know that some would object to the change in financial arrangements that this would entail, but, in reality, at worst the increase would be uniformly passed along to the consumer (who would still be getting a good deal, IMO). Competence pays for itself.

There are a lot of strange people out there, though.

(And don't feign innocence when I use "all caps". You made me do it.:bbg: )

[ken@foothills]

Lady came in after her exam and after we spent some time looking at glassess and pricing a pair of glassess she asked if I would take her PD which I did which she then asked to have that information written down. I said No. Just Like Chris Reyser told me to do.

[Snitgirl]

Lady came in after her exam and after we spent some time looking at glassess and pricing a pair of glassess she asked if I would take her PD which I did which she then asked to have that information written down. I said No. Just Like Chris Reyser told me to do.

Ken@foothills - hummmm... question...OD's usual take the pt's pd before the phoropter is placed in front of them, correct? If this is the case, wouldn't the PD be part of the exam and the patient has every right to that information since they have legal right to their records? just wonderin...

[Judy Canty]

The only part of the exam that the patient is entitled to is the lens formulary.

[drk]

Ken@foothills - hummmm... question...OD's usual take the pt's pd before the phoropter is placed in front of them, correct? If this is the case, wouldn't the PD be part of the exam and the patient has every right to that information since they have legal right to their records? just wonderin...

Actually, no. We just put the phoropter up there and adjust it until the eyes are basically centered. Yeah, there's a pd scale on the phoroptor, but you'd only use it refracting aphakes, or doing a pinhole vertical phoria or something weird.

The only time I think to take a pd is when I'm doing some binocular vision calculations.

It's NOT part of a routine exam, ergo NOT for the patient to take! So sorry, onliners!:D

[Snitgirl]

Actually, no. We just put the phoropter up there and adjust it until the eyes are basically centered. Yeah, there's a pd scale on the phoroptor, but you'd only use it refracting aphakes, or doing a pinhole vertical phoria or something weird.

The only time I think to take a pd is when I'm doing some binocular vision calculations.

It's NOT part of a routine exam, ergo NOT for the patient to take! So sorry, onliners!:D

Interesting... I guess the Dr's that I know do things differently...

[Spexvet]

The only time I think to take a pd is when I'm doing some binocular vision calculations.

Whattsamatta? Don't know how to use a pupilometer? :p

[35oldguy]

I prefer to take my own measurements. It is my nickel and if the lens P:D. is wrong then it is my fault! Some people were not taught the correct method to take a P.D.

Whattsamatta? Don't know how to use a pupilometer? :p

[ken@foothills]

The responsibility of taking measurements for a pair of glasses should be the person making the glasses. Period.