fee for onliners

[Snitgirl]

Nice job, Snitgirl!
For your short-term profit, you've managed to contribute to the erosion of professionalism in your chosen profession! I'd invest that profit somewhere, since you're going to need it when you go out of business.

Ouch!

Funny you state that, I've been quite successful for the past 20 years in this field :bbg:

I truly enjoy HELPING patients and also all the referrals they send me. It's nice that we don't have to spend tons of money on outside marketing or advertising.. Going the extra Mile "old-fashioned service" is quite cheap internal marketing and comes with great rewards. This is a forum and you have your opinion. So with that said, I don't mind helping your customers, their family, their friends and their families when you let them down.

How does the saying go? Sometimes you have to spend money to make money..

Okay, I am not going to bang my head over this, this is my last entry on this topic

[35oldguy]

I think you are way off base. Licensing does not give you the right to be a optician. There are lots of ethical opticians out there that are more experienced than you. I am not licensed! A license is a fee someone charges so you can get more money. It does not mean you are more qualified than someone else! I have a 4 and a two year degree and ABO certified and 35 years experience. Just because you are licensed does that give you the right to be more ethical?

"So far as ethics are concerned, I have a problem with MD's/OD's in licensed states utilizing unlicensed employees and calling them "opticians." And I have a problem with the same group of professionals advertising themselves as "Opticians" in the local Yellow Pages...but that's another rant for another time."

Liability for what, exactly? Measurements? Your measurements should be kept in a patient file. Copy for the customer; copy for the file. Deviations from those measurements are the responsibility of the fabricator/dispenser/on-line retailer. Quality of materials? Also the responsibility of the f/d/o-lr. Defective materials? D/F/O-LR, again. Breakage during adjustments or other repairs? You guessed it...D/F/O-RL. I didn't provide advice on the frame or lens selection, so I'm not liable for that either. I didn't fabricate the eyewear so no liability there either. I don't consider myself ethically-challenged. I'm simply getting better at looking forward. I figure that if I can get these folks in my store often enough, I've got a fighting chance to get their business. After all, they've got to come in to see me no matter what.

So far as ethics are concerned, I have a problem with MD's/OD's in licensed states utilizing unlicensed employees and calling them "opticians." And I have a problem with the same group of professionals advertising themselves as "Opticians" in the local Yellow Pages...but that's another rant for another time.

[35oldguy]

Are these online frames discontinued merchandise? If so why are the frame companies selling them to onliners. Why not sell them to us the people that buy from them all the time and support them.

Wow! I love Optiboard you guys are great and these are great suggestions. This came about because a long time pt found a frame online and "assumed" it would be cheaper, he called to ask if I would put his good lenses into the broken frame. The frame was 4 years old and any wtys had expired. I told him I would and off the cuff mentioned a professional fee that included insertion and 1 adjustment. I felt my stomach churn at the conversation and I thought is this really happening to our office right now? In any case after speaking to coworkers I realized we need to take a stance. First and most imortant we need to decide to become indespencable. So great that absolutely no one can live optically comfortable lives with out us and therefore they will have no desires to go online. Should this not happen however...we need a plan. I love all of the points presented here and will share them with the rest of the staff and hopefully report back ideas. I loved reading both sides, pro and against and will take all into consideration. Thanks Optiboarders and keep the awesome thoughts coming!!!

Cindy

[35oldguy]

Come to Central America! Your services are needed here. Do it for free! Enjoy a trip south. Write it off as a business expense. You would still be making money.

Am I less professional if I give away my skills and services? Are OD's less professional when they offer a free eye exam or a "refund" of the cost with the purchase of eyewear? I am a professional who likes to make money as well, otherwise I'd be volunteering my services where ever they were needed.

[rsandr]

Nice job, Snitgirl!
For your short-term profit, you've managed to contribute to the erosion of professionalism in your chosen profession! I'd invest that profit somewhere, since you're going to need it when you go out of business.

I find there is very little honour in the business.
For every optician bogged down by ethics there will be a dozen happy to take the onliners money. How do you win when you decide all the ways you aren't going to make your living and realise there isn't enough left?
It would be beautiful if everyone would band together against the unethical but it's hardly likely.

[35oldguy]

The problem is that there are too many little operations trying to make a buck and need whatever business they can get. Most people cannot see the forest for the trees!

I find there is very little honour in the business.
For every optician bogged down by ethics there will be a dozen happy to take the onliners money. How do you win when you decide all the ways you aren't going to make your living and realise there isn't enough left?
It would be beautiful if everyone would band together against the unethical but it's hardly likely.

[hcjilson]

Nice job, Snitgirl!
For your short-term profit, you've managed to contribute to the erosion of professionalism in your chosen profession! I'd invest that profit somewhere, since you're going to need it when you go out of business.

A professsional caters to the request of their clientele. I don't see anything unprofessional about charging for time spent measuring and adjusting online , or purchases made elsewhere. Certainly nothing unethical. In my opinion she sells her services for short money but thats a bird of another feather. She and Judy have hit the nail on the head by making a purse out of a sow's ear by taking advantage of making a sale to the person who walked into the shop. I don't see either she or Judy going out of business anytime soon.

best from hj

PS to Snitgirl- welcome to optiboard and keep racking up those posts! Non Illigitimus Carborundum.

[Snitgirl]

A professsional caters to the request of their clientele. I don't see anything unprofessional about charging for time spent measuring and adjusting online , or purchases made elsewhere. Certainly nothing unethical. In my opinion she sells her services for short money but thats a bird of another feather. She and Judy have hit the nail on the head by making a purse out of a sow's ear by taking advantage of making a sale to the person who walked into the shop. I don't see either she or Judy going out of business anytime soon.

best from hj

PS to Snitgirl- welcome to optiboard and keep racking up those posts! Non Illigitimus Carborundum.

Thank you hj for the Welcome!:cheers:

[drk]

A professsional caters to the request of their clientele. I don't see anything unprofessional about charging for time spent measuring and adjusting online , or purchases made elsewhere. Certainly nothing unethical. In my opinion she sells her services for short money but thats a bird of another feather. She and Judy have hit the nail on the head by making a purse out of a sow's ear by taking advantage of making a sale to the person who walked into the shop. I don't see either she or Judy going out of business anytime soon.

best from hj

PS to Snitgirl- welcome to optiboard and keep racking up those posts! Non Illigitimus Carborundum.

A professional protects his profession, no? A professional has standards and values that supersedes financial gain, no?

Make all the sow's ears purses you want.

Enjoy the illusion of professionalism by charging for professional fees.

Come back in five years and let's talk about how the internet business is eroding your client base, and I'll feel less than sympathetic. You're doing it to yourselves, and others, by the way, by supporting this.

Oh well, some people still buy Luxottica product, as well.

[hcjilson]

Enclosed, please find the definition of professional.


pro·fes·sion·al P Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.

In no definition I have read, does it say anything about protecting the profession, and certainly nothing about standards and values superceding financial gain.

Drk said "Come back in five years and let's talk about how the internet business is eroding your client base, and I'll feel less than sympathetic. You're doing it to yourselves, and others, by the way, by supporting this."

I am not interested in five years from now, I am interested in doing the best I can today. I am long past imagining I control any part of this industry and I am reasonably sure of my client base, so I'll leave the future to the soothsayers.If changes occur, as surely they must, I'll do my best to adapt, as hopefully others will do.

I am distressed at how little confidence you show in the independent practitioner, and how you seem to place the blame for today's market on others (noteably the internet, and Luxottica) in this thread.


Why does competion bother so many people?

[35oldguy]

But isn't that what licensing actually does is weed out the competition?

Enclosed, please find the definition of professional.


pro·fes·sion·al P Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.

In no definition I have read, does it say anything about protecting the profession, and certainly nothing about standards and values superceding financial gain.

Drk said "Come back in five years and let's talk about how the internet business is eroding your client base, and I'll feel less than sympathetic. You're doing it to yourselves, and others, by the way, by supporting this."

I am not interested in five years from now, I am interested in doing the best I can today. I am long past imagining I control any part of this industry and I am reasonably sure of my client base, so I'll leave the future to the soothsayers.If changes occur, as surely they must, I'll do my best to adapt, as hopefully others will do.

I am distressed at how little confidence you show in the independent practitioner, and how you seem to place the blame for today's market on others (noteably the internet, and Luxottica) in this thread.


Why does competion bother so many people?

[ziggy]

Drk, you line of thinking is IMO off. You speak of us selling off our profession, of not having standards, because some of us will take then give the correct pd and seg to a patient for a fee. We opticians sold off our profession long ago when we let the states say that we were unqualified to practice, with out OD's/MD's. Granted that was a long time ago, but one should not be labasted for atempting to carve out their own neich today.

[hcjilson]

But isn't that what licensing actually does is weed out the competition?

Not as much today as in the past. I was a member of the MA board for 20 something years.I have also been involved with the National Committee of State Regulatory Boards (NCSORB) which is a committee consisting of at least one member from each licensed state. My board time began in 1978 and at that time there was a move to loosen restrictions between licensed states ( spearheaded by Arizona and Alaska) and currently there is a move to standardize licensing requirements. One written examination and One practical exam for everyone.This is meeting with some difficulty but still the aim of many.
My point is that restrictive regulation will not stand a legal challenge and most boards (or their counsels) understand this, and support and open application process. I really haven't seen much evidence of licensing "weeding out the competition" but I can see how it might appear that way to some people, in some states.Fortunately I live in an area with 5 bordering licensed states ( actually 4, but New Hampshire is coming around), which makes recognition of "similar qualifications" almost mandatory. This is not true in other areas, but I still don't think boards are trying to limit competition. They are much too busy with consumer advocacy not only at the store level,but they are addressing the internet sale of spectacles as well.- It would be a great subject for a thread.

[Judy Canty]

Enjoy the illusion of professionalism by charging for professional fees.

Are you not charging a fee for professional services every time you provide an eye exam or a contact lens exam?

[Chris Ryser]

Are these online frames discontinued merchandise? If so why are the frame companies selling them to onliners. Why not sell them to us the people that buy from them all the time and support them.

Any frame supplier would be happy to sell discontiued lines to anybody who cares taking them before he has to throw them in the garbage.

Ther are very few optical retailers that will buy quantities of discontinued stock of frames. Therefore this factor is also added and included in the original wholesale price of frames.

If independent retailers would have a section on their frame boards with discontinued frames they can purchase for a peanut price and give them away with the purchase of the lenses at full price you would have a very competitive niche for poeple with little money to spend.

[drk]

Enclosed, please find the definition of professional.


pro·fes·sion·al P Pronunciation Key (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

n.
A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.

In no definition I have read, does it say anything about protecting the profession, and certainly nothing about standards and values superceding financial gain.

Drk said "Come back in five years and let's talk about how the internet business is eroding your client base, and I'll feel less than sympathetic. You're doing it to yourselves, and others, by the way, by supporting this."

I am not interested in five years from now, I am interested in doing the best I can today. I am long past imagining I control any part of this industry and I am reasonably sure of my client base, so I'll leave the future to the soothsayers.If changes occur, as surely they must, I'll do my best to adapt, as hopefully others will do.

I am distressed at how little confidence you show in the independent practitioner, and how you seem to place the blame for today's market on others (noteably the internet, and Luxottica) in this thread.


Why does competion bother so many people?

Forgive me if I enchance the dictionary version:

Medical professional: 1.) a person who is a member of a profession 2.) a person charged with protecting and promoting the health of their patients.

Fragmenting care by separating the frame and lens design process from the measurement processes (in other words, letting the patient/internet drop-down list choose the frame and lens for themselves and you providing measurements, regardless of whether their choices are even remotely logical) is an abrogation of your responsibility to the patient as a professional optician. You are essentially saying that you don't give a crap about what they buy online, but for a small fee, you'll participate. ARE YOU THAT DESPERATE? ARE YOU THAT UNPROFESSIONAL? IS THERE PROFESSIONALISM IN OPTICIANRY? HECK, IT'S ENTIRELY HYPOCRITICAL TO PUSH FOR LICENSURE FOR THE PROCESS OF HISTORY, NEEDS ANALYSIS, FRAME AND LENS DESIGN, MEASUREMENTS, QUALITY CONTROL, FITTING OF A PROSTHESIS, AND FOLLOWUP CARE WHEN YOU ARE WILLING TO LET PEOPLE THROW AWAY 3/4 OF THE PROCESS ON-LINE, AND SMILE BECAUSE YOU ARE "SO HELPFUL" OR "SO COMPETITIVE AND ADAPTATIVE" BECAUSE YOU MADE SMALL CHANGE! THAT'D BE LIKE ME TAKING K'S AND SPECTACLE REFRACTION AND TELLING THE PATIENT: GO SELECT WHATEVER LENS ONLINE THAT YOU LIKE...AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU! IT'S LIKE THE REFRACTIVE SURGEON THAT WILL CUT FEES TO GET THEM IN THE DOOR AND GIVE THE PERSON THE OPTION OF SURGICAL FOLLOWUP CARE OR NOT!

Second point: If you can't see that this is ultimately horrible for your profession as well, you are confoundingly short-sighted. I'm too exasperated to spell out the A-B-C's and 1-2-3's of this.

I'm thoroughly disgusted. The lack of understanding, hypocrisy, and talking out of both sides of your mouths kills me. A trained monkey can use a pupillometer (except Spexvex, hehe) or a machine can do it. How valuable of a service do you think that leaves you with? If you would like to see 50% of our patient base go online for optical care, keep on supporting them!

Keep on writing articles about the nuances of fitting progressives, and then supply measurements for a person to do it themselves. Keep on educating yourself so that you can understand and provide world-class care, and keep lobbying for how important it is for an optician to be an educated, state-licensed professional and then go ahead and show what you really think about taking care of people's optical needs. Actions speak louder than words.

Note: this has precious little to do with "competition". Note: taking professional fees does not a professional make. Note: Webster's concise and general description of a professional notwithstanding, I would refer you to the credo's of the professional organizations such as the AMA, AOA, or your own.

[Jason Carruthers]

I have to agree with Bugs Bunny about not supporting online services. It's the ultimate disloyalty to yourself. There is nothing wrong with competition and I don't blame the online sellers. But I'll be damned if I'm going to help them any more than I will tell all my clients to go to the store down the street.

[rsandr]

I have to agree with Bugs Bunny about not supporting online services. It's the ultimate disloyalty to yourself. There is nothing wrong with competition and I don't blame the online sellers. But I'll be damned if I'm going to help them any more than I will tell all my clients to go to the store down the street.

If they were all going to the store down the street anyway, because they offered something you couldn't would you just close down?

Is there not something to be said for helping the patient get the best from their on line purchase? I can't see a massive problem with splitting the dispense and the spectacles into two products. Its been done backhandedly for years in the UK for VAT purposes.

If we are being honest it is the making of the glasses where all the grief is anyway.
And if we help the patients now and with any follow problems they have with their on line purchase maybe they will realise the benefits of buying in store and become a valued customer again.

There is no 'till death do us part' with your patients.

[rsandr]

Rsandr, i know nobody owes me a living,i just resent online suppliers implying that they can do the job as well as i can.
As you are on the lab side of things i suppose you dont mind where your glazing orders come from, be it online suppliers or otherwise.

I do mind, I trained to be a DO to become a better glazer. It is the government who sold out our profession under pressure from the likes of Douggie P.
If they re-regulated optics everyone would get better service and a better pair of specs but would they be happy about the price they had to pay for them?
The public want to pay the minimum, big business wants to make the maximum, nobody has any scruples and i'm in the middle trying to earn a living. I've decided to leave morals out of it and look after me and mine.

[ikon44]

ARE YOU THAT DESPERATE? ARE YOU THAT UNPROFESSIONAL? IS THERE PROFESSIONALISM IN OPTICIANRY? HECK, IT'S ENTIRELY HYPOCRITICAL TO PUSH FOR LICENSURE FOR THE PROCESS OF HISTORY, NEEDS ANALYSIS, FRAME AND LENS DESIGN, MEASUREMENTS, QUALITY CONTROL, FITTING OF A PROSTHESIS, AND FOLLOWUP CARE WHEN YOU ARE WILLING TO LET PEOPLE THROW AWAY 3/4 OF THE PROCESS ON-LINE, AND SMILE BECAUSE YOU ARE "SO HELPFUL" OR "SO COMPETITIVE AND ADAPTATIVE" BECAUSE YOU MADE SMALL CHANGE! THAT'D BE LIKE ME TAKING K'S AND SPECTACLE REFRACTION AND TELLING THE PATIENT: GO SELECT WHATEVER LENS ONLINE THAT YOU LIKE...AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU! IT'S LIKE THE REFRACTIVE SURGEON THAT WILL CUT FEES TO GET THEM IN THE DOOR AND GIVE THE PERSON THE OPTION OF SURGICAL FOLLOWUP CARE OR NOT!

Second point: If you can't see that this is ultimately horrible for your profession as well, you are confoundingly short-sighted. I'm too exasperated to spell out the A-B-C's and 1-2-3's of this.



Keep on writing articles about the nuances of fitting progressives, and then supply measurements for a person to do it themselves. Keep on educating yourself so that you can understand and provide world-class care, and keep lobbying for how important it is for an optician to be an educated, state-licensed professional and then go ahead and show what you really think about taking care of people's optical needs. Actions speak louder than words.

DRk, I agree 100% with you, do these people who give out technical advice
and measurements not realise they are participating in their own demise, by giving out this information whether charging or not you are giving
these people some respectability.

Like i said before you only have to look at the contact lens market if you want a vision of the future.

[ikon44]

If they were all going to the store down the street anyway, because they offered something you couldn't would you just close down?

Is there not something to be said for helping the patient get the best from their on line purchase? I can't see a massive problem with splitting the dispense and the spectacles into two products. Its been done backhandedly for years in the UK for VAT purposes.

If we are being honest it is the making of the glasses where all the grief is anyway.
And if we help the patients now and with any follow problems they have with their on line purchase maybe they will realise the benefits of buying in store and become a valued customer again.

There is no 'till death do us part' with your patients.

what happens when your online purchaser is unable to tolerate their new varifocals and the online supplier says they have been made according to measurement.
They will come to you to troubleshoot, and possibly expect you to pay for new lenses, after all they have paid a fee, and if it,s not thesuppliers fault
it must be yours !!
As for saying that it is the making of the glasses that all the grief is in, this tells me you are involved in a lab and do not deal directly with the public,
if you were on the front line i am sure you would change your mind.
The only grief involved in making glasses comes when your lab is no good.

[drk]

DRk, I agree 100% with you, do these people who give out technical advice
and measurements not realise they are participating in their own demise, by giving out this information whether charging or not you are giving
these people some respectability.

Like i said before you only have to look at the contact lens market if you want a vision of the future.

Ikon:
There is a lot to be said for purchasing online. I do it all the time, actually. All office supplies, etc.

What is it that is so appealing to online purchasing? Convenience and efficiency for one.

One has to think of E-bay, Overstock.com, 800-CLs and the likes, for another main advantage: some low-cost product can be obtained there.

Now, as a future strategy, I don't think we as professionals can support "cheap" stuff, be it online or not (although the easy availablity of price structures to the consumer may reward or punish a given optical). But we can make things more convenient. I don't see any problem with each individual business having it's own website (and ponying up the $ to get listed properly [ask C. Ryser about that]) and letting them view selections, peruse lens availabilities, get directions, hours, meet the staff, etc. AND THEN have them come in for the professional touch that they need. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say the sites could sell plano sunglasses and ship to the customer sight unseen.

The future certainly involves the internet heavily. What is the likely scenario in 10-15 years?

[rsandr]

what happens when your online purchaser is unable to tolerate their new varifocals and the online supplier says they have been made according to measurement.
They will come to you to troubleshoot, and possibly expect you to pay for new lenses, after all they have paid a fee, and if it,s not thesuppliers fault
it must be yours !!

Hopefully it will reinstall in them the obvious advantage of having the glasses made where the eye test was carried out and be to your ultimate benefit.

As for saying that it is the making of the glasses that all the grief is in, this tells me you are involved in a lab and do not deal directly with the public,
if you were on the front line i am sure you would change your mind.

Yup I spent a few years dispensing and am happy to retract that! The painful memories must have faded with time.

The only grief involved in making glasses comes when your lab is no good.

Ouch..I think!

For the record i'm not pro online. I just remember all the furor when Boots started to sell solutions and Argos were selling coloured lenses. They still are years later. I feel it makes more sense to recognise where the industry is going rather than getting frustrated trying to fight it.

[ikon44]

Ikon:
There is a lot to be said for purchasing online. I do it all the time, actually. All office supplies, etc.

What is it that is so appealing to online purchasing? Convenience and efficiency for one.

One has to think of E-bay, Overstock.com, 800-CLs and the likes, for another main advantage: some low-cost product can be obtained there.

Now, as a future strategy, I don't think we as professionals can support "cheap" stuff, be it online or not (although the easy availablity of price structures to the consumer may reward or punish a given optical). But we can make things more convenient. I don't see any problem with each individual business having it's own website (and ponying up the $ to get listed properly [ask C. Ryser about that]) and letting them view selections, peruse lens availabilities, get directions, hours, meet the staff, etc. AND THEN have them come in for the professional touch that they need. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say the sites could sell plano sunglasses and ship to the customer sight unseen.

The future certainly involves the internet heavily. What is the likely scenario in 10-15 years?

Agreed drk,you cannot put the genie back in the bottle,and certainly , any practice worth it,s salt will have a comprehensive website containing all the information you have listed.
We already have a website for our own patients to order their lenses online.
as for spectacles,if the website explains all the technical aspects involved in
making glasses hopefully the average intelligent person will realise it is better
to have them made by a professional.

[drk]

Agreed drk,you cannot put the genie back in the bottle,and certainly , any practice worth it,s salt will have a comprehensive website containing all the information you have listed.
We already have a website for our own patients to order their lenses online.
as for spectacles,if the website explains all the technical aspects involved in
making glasses hopefully the average intelligent person will realise it is b
to have them made by a professional.

Cool. Link?