fee for onliners

[35oldguy]

I am a ABOC optican. What does it cost to take a simple test? Did you study at home? Or did you spend your hard earned $$$ like I did and get a degree in this field. How many of my fellows on this board feel it is okay to give away your services for free? The OD's and MD's charge a handsome fee just for their services. Why should we be any different?

I think it is a matter of attitude?

So how do you suppose that these retailers came into existance? Was it because they saw that the most expensive part of dispensing, the knowledge and skill of an Optician, was available for free?

[shellrob]

I think DRK has said it all.



P.S.Ikon...if I've picked out a new frame online and want to order, as you said, the same comfort lenses I've had for 5 years, are the measurements the same? No, I rest my case.

[ikon44]

I think it's unrealistic to believe that on-line retailers and their customers will just cease to exist by our refusal to provide professional services. We are already providing these same services for free to anyone who walks in off the street and needs them. The logic continues to be that our largesse will convert these free services to paying customers. My reality says that customers will shop where they want to, be it Wal*Mart or LensCrafters or FramesDirect.com. When those customers need my professional assistance, I will happily charge them an appropriate fee. Perhaps they will decide that a more personalized encounter is preferable to "big-box" or on-line transactions. Perhaps not. But in any event, they will know where to come for specific professional Opticianry services.

we dont provide anything free, it is just that the professional Dispensing fee has been hidden in the cost of the spectacles.
I can easily spend 20 mins to half an hour helping a client make the correct choice with their eyewear, you cannot give that amount of time free.

[35oldguy]

$$$. It is neither. Charging for your services is what every honest professional has to do unless they do not need the $$$.

Money, money, money.
Is it right or is it wrong?

[drk]

So how do you suppose that these retailers came into existance? Was it because they saw that the most expensive part of dispensing, the knowledge and skill of an Optician, was available for free?

Anyone giving away free services is naiive, in my book.

Yes, a lot of goodwill can be generated by that "nice" free adjustment or pair of nosepads. If you think it's a good idea to give away services for nothing, then go for it. But I make my living on professional services, and so do you. If you devalue them too much, then you're in trouble. Be careful.

I think a stupid optician probably was the first online retailer. I know just the type, and I know of one around here. The stupid optician knew that he could ask his customers to take advantage of "nice" people like you, Judy.

Opticians provide an immense amount of professional service. Unfortunately, the tradition is that the professional fee is buried in the cost of the product, which is a monumental mistake.

What do you think would happen if these onliners got overwhelming traction, like what is almost happening with 1-800? You'll lower your material prices to compete with the onliners, and you'll institute a professional fee, and a stiff one at that. At least $100, if you're any good, because that's about what you're getting now. That's what I, and any half-witted OD is doing with CLs. So you may just make out.

But what kind of a world is that? Can that formula work? Patient gets exam. Patient goes online to shop. Patient goes to your office with frame before making lenses for seg height, OC height, fit confirmation, OR, afterwards for adjustment and the inevitable trouble-shooting. And then what? If you can fix it for your fee, then they paid the same damned amount they did in the first place before onliners. So it's no cost savings to them.

In other words, there is NO UPSIDE for ANYONE (other than the get-rich-quick people, who can close down their site and disappear), especially the consumer

WHO WE GET PAID TO SERVE AND PROTECT!

[ikon44]

I think DRK has said it all.



P.S.Ikon...if I've picked out a new frame online and want to order, as you said, the same comfort lenses I've had for 5 years, are the measurements the same? No, I rest my case.

you are missing the point shellrob, the online retailer will send the empty frame to the patient, who will come to you and for the princely sum of $20 you will use
your expertise to make sure the frame fits and give mono PDs and heights, happy patient will then go online and give the onliner $250. to make said glasses
who is the better off ?

[Judy Canty]

I guess your expenses are somewhat less than mine.

Let me see, ABC optical(an independent Optician not an Optometric practice) is open from 9am to 6pm and doesn't close for lunch. They see perhaps 5 new rx's a day with an average sale of $250 per rx. It takes about 30-45 minutes to complete the order and leaves me with about 2.5 hours of free time. I can spend it edging and mounting jobs to save $6-10 per job on lab fees or I can let the lab have the $60 while I provide fee-for-service care. If I charge $50 for 3 online fittings, I've still made an extra $90. Perhaps some of you could relate that to the little 15-minute office visits for CL checks and such that net a few extra dollars for the bottom line.

[35oldguy]

This has nothing to do with whether you get the business or not. It is called ethics!!! If you are hoping to capture this person to buy from you the next time that they decide to buy on the basis that you did them a good job this is called fanstasy.

There may be a difference but there are similarities, one is that people are buying things places other then your office. It rings loud.

[drk]

You tell me. I've seen Rx's from OD's that expire in as little as 24 hours, in Virginia where it is illegal for a spectacle RX to contain an expiration date unless medically necessary.

Do not lecture me about ethics, EVER!

Judy, you are not above being "lectured to" in ethics, nor am I. We all are striving for ethical betterment, since no one is perfect. And whether the messenger discussing ethics is a part of a group of people that have unethical members or not, such as I am, it doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Hate the sin, love the sinner, you know.

[Judy Canty]

Would any of you refuse an eye exam to a patient who you knew would be purchasing CL's or spectacles on-line?

[ikon44]

Let me see, ABC optical(an independent Optician not an Optometric practice) is open from 9am to 6pm and doesn't close for lunch. They see perhaps 5 new rx's a day with an average sale of $250 per rx. It takes about 30-45 minutes to complete the order and leaves me with about 2.5 hours of free time. I can spend it edging and mounting jobs to save $6-10 per job on lab fees or I can let the lab have the $60 while I provide fee-for-service care. If I charge $50 for 3 online fittings, I've still made an extra $90. Perhaps some of you could relate that to the little 15-minute office visits for CL checks and such that net a few extra dollars for the bottom line.

those three online jobs tell another 3 friends how much better it is to get your glasses online...
pretty soon you will be spending more time doing online jobs at $50.00
oh dear ,
mr DEF opticians round the corner has cut a deal with the onliners if they send their clients to him, he will do it for $35.00...
Judy that is what will happen it is a vicious circle with only one winner.

[shellrob]

I'm better off, because it won't be me that does those measurements and adjustments for the patient. That's what I was saying in the first place. If someone wants to go online to buy glasses, I'm not making it easier for them and harder on me by being the one who takes those measurements, adjusts their frame, and trouble shoots when they're "awesome cheap online " glasses don't work. That is not what I do. Believe me I hate it that some of my patients order their contacts online, but I can only save so many from doing that. I will not give the patient a little "push" to order their glasses online.

[Judy Canty]

What if the winner is GHI who realizes that all she really needs is a small office space, a lensometer, hand tools and sound optical skills? Like a doctor with no dispensary.

[shellrob]

Judy....If you were to provide those so called "online services'" why then would a patient of yours want to buy from you then if they can get the online servies from you for 20-50 bucks and go online to purchase their glasses for a 1/3 of what they could get fom you.? Plus, you're putting out the word that you think that it's ok to do that and that the glasses online are just as good as what you've got and you and I and everyone else on here knows that that's not true. Come on... you're doing the patient any favors.

[drk]

Would any of you refuse an eye exam to a patient who you knew would be purchasing CL's or spectacles on-line?

Good question. Let me think that one over. Do I provide a service for a patient who I know is going to do something stupid? Maybe I do, but I sure tell them that it's stupid, because that's my job.

Maybe I don't, because I don't want to be a part of something that I don't believe is in their best interests. I've head of Dr.s firing patients because they weren't going to sit around an watch them smoke after lung cancer surgery.

I truly would tell a patient to take a hike if they said up front they were going to get an exam to buy CLs online. I don't need that kind of business, and CL care is at the heart of optometry. (Usually it's done "real sneaky-like" because they know they're "cheating the system".) But if someone presented for an examination and said they were going online to buy glasses, I'd tell them that we are not going to provide optical services for such a pair of glasses, and be done with it. I do think that I'm obligated to examine them in that circumstance, because optical services are not an integral part of optometry, IMO.

[ikon44]

I'm better off, because it won't be me that does those measurements and adjustments for the patient. That's what I was saying in the first place. If someone wants to go online to buy glasses, I'm not making it easier for them and harder on me by being the one who takes those measurements, adjusts their frame, and trouble shoots when they're "awesome cheap online " glasses don't work. That is not what I do. Believe me I hate it that some of my patients order their contacts online, but I can only save so many from doing that. I will not give the patient a little "push" to order their glasses online.

sorry shellrob, i had thought that you would be willing to do it I must have misunderstood your earlier posting.

[Judy Canty]

Judy....If you were to provide those so called "online services'" why then would a patient of yours want to buy from you then if they can get the online servies from you for 20-50 bucks and go online to purchase their glasses for a 1/3 of what they could get fom you.? Plus, you're putting out the word that you think that it's ok to do that and that the glasses online are just as good as what you've got and you and I and everyone else on here knows that that's not true. Come on... you're doing the patient any favors.

And wouldn't I be in the perfect position to tell them about any errors they may have made by purchasing online? And wouldn't I be able to charge for the full value of my expertise? After all, why are patients still getting eye exams from Ophthalmologists when OD's are much less expensive?

[Judy Canty]

I do think that I'm obligated to examine them in that circumstance, because optical services are not an integral part of optometry, IMO.

Then why do OD's dispense if not to offset low exam fees?

[ikon44]

What if the winner is GHI who realizes that all she really needs is a small office space, a lensometer, hand tools and sound optical skills? Like a doctor with no dispensary.

Judy, i doubt anyone could make a living by just supplying measurements for online retailers.
Why should anyone be forced to look at that option
I say Fight them with everything you have got, Dont give in to them

[drk]

What if the winner is GHI who realizes that all she really needs is a small office space, a lensometer, hand tools and sound optical skills? Like a doctor with no dispensary.

You'd better make that a small pushcart on the sidewalk.

Why the heck is anyone going to buy glasses online, anyway? It's stupid, and it won't work. There's no chance this is going to go anywhere, anyway. I wouldn't hypothesize about the "non-retailing-professional-services-only" optician, because it can't be done correctly. It would be an exercise in extreme frustration for the patient and said optician.

What's more likely is some fancy-schmancy machine kiosk being able to replace "said" optician, like the Ipseo machine! Just measure a little pd, put a virtual frame on, and voila!, send the data to the mother ship and swipe your credit card.

Retailing is at the heart of what opticianry does (as well as professional care), and the field would have to shrink immensely with no retailing.

[Judy Canty]

Gosh, this devil's advocate stuff is fun!

[drk]

And wouldn't I be in the perfect position to tell them about any errors they may have made by purchasing online? And wouldn't I be able to charge for the full value of my expertise? After all, why are patients still getting eye exams from Ophthalmologists when OD's are much less expensive?

Yeah, but you'd be enabling them to go online. I don't enable anyone.

If someone walks in off the street with already-made junk online glasses and you trouble shoot, adjust, educate, and charge them a fee for service, I think that's OK. But if the same person comes back one year later and smiles and says "Oh, Judy, you're such a good optician. Will you fill out this form for me? I'd buy from you, but the kids need braces...", then you have the ethical dilemma as to whether you're going to enable something you don't believe is in anyone's best interests.

[drk]

Then why do OD's dispense if not to offset low exam fees?

I dispense because it's a need that I enjoy serving, and I do it well. I am half optician, half optometrist, and half ophthalmologist. (Maybe a little overweight, too.)

[35oldguy]

Sorry Judy! I will explain. I am a very large optical retailer and wholesaler in a country other than the United States. I do 40 to 50 RX's a day for average of $60.00 per RX. Mostly SV Glass and PGX. I have a large staff including 3 OD's. I do not have free time. Every minute I am making $$$.My office hours are whenever they need or want me. I am here to serve!!!!

One of my many customers was in the USA recently.

"Why is eyecare in the USA so high? A person eyes are so precious! Why do they charge so much!"

Question again I guess what is ethical? Is it always about money? So whatever you think you need to charge is your business. But I went and got the necessary education to be the best that I can be and to help people in need. I do not beleive they want it to be free. I do not think that if you only can do 5 RX's a day and charge high prices that you are really only thinking about them. $90.00 for selling your soul to the onliners is to me unethical!!!

Let me see, ABC optical(an independent Optician not an Optometric practice) is open from 9am to 6pm and doesn't close for lunch. They see perhaps 5 new rx's a day with an average sale of $250 per rx. It takes about 30-45 minutes to complete the order and leaves me with about 2.5 hours of free time. I can spend it edging and mounting jobs to save $6-10 per job on lab fees or I can let the lab have the $60 while I provide fee-for-service care. If I charge $50 for 3 online fittings, I've still made an extra $90. Perhaps some of you could relate that to the little 15-minute office visits for CL checks and such that net a few extra dollars for the bottom line.

[Judy Canty]

Every minute I am making $$$.My office hours are whenever they need or want me. I am here to serve!!!

Am I to assume that you are not making a profit as well? Or is making a profit still our dirty little secret?