fee for onliners

[ikon44]

There's a huge difference between dispensing contacts online vs glasses. Not that either is right, but there is a difference.

Whats the difference,if you are providing the measurements and doing the adjustments, all for a relatively small fee, the online company are doing nothing
but provide the product to your specification,they can even send clients back to
you that have "problems".

seems pretty similiar to me .

[35oldguy]

The bottom line is why give them any business at all.

There's a huge difference between dispensing contacts online vs glasses. Not that either is right, but there is a difference.

[shellrob]

I don't think I need to justify my reply with reasons why the 2 are different. I know that my acuvue lenses that I've worn for 10 years are the same lenses wherever I get them. It's all the other care that of course is the most important and I won't get into that. Eyeglasses are not a "stocked item". They are custom made for each individual. Like I said before, I definitely do not agree with either, but dispensing each of them is different.

[35oldguy]

You only want to make a fee. If you own your own business I would like to know how you are going to pay your employees salaries, taxes, lights etc charging only a fee. You will very soon not be in business. On line businesses do not have much overhead! We do. Why should the consumer pick from our inventories that we have to pay for, get charged a nominal fee and buy elsewhere. Pretty unethical to me.

It is a lot like large companies wanting you to do their emplloyee safety programs. They hire the labs to make the glasses, you charge them a fee to measure them, and the worker gets a big company benefit for work eyeglasses. Glasses for our cost. It is simply stupid if you are in business to make money!!!

Whats the difference,if you are providing the measurements and doing the adjustments, all for a relatively small fee, the online company are doing nothing
but provide the product to your specification,they can even send clients back to
you that have "problems".

seems pretty similiar to me .

[For-Life]

If you charge a fee of $50 or more (which includes measurements and a proper fitting) you will be able to cover your expenses.

[drk]

I am not saying it now. Maybe 1 in every 1000 or more are doing it. What happens if it goes down to 1 in every 100.

I am just saying that we have to stay aware.

How are 1 in 100 going to do it without opticians taking the measurements? It's totally in our control. The onliners need us to operate. No cooperation = no onliners.

So your point is moot.

[For-Life]

How are 1 in 100 going to do it without opticians taking the measurements? It's totally in our control. The onliners need us to operate. No cooperation = no onliners.

So your point is moot.

Not really, you know if you do not do it someone will.

I doubt you will be able to stop this 100 percent.

[drk]

Not really, you know if you do not do it someone will.

I doubt you will be able to stop this 100 percent.

Yeah, For-Life, it sounds like I won't be doing it, and you will. That's lame. That's like saying you should cheat on your taxes because everyone else does. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

Judy, my point is this, and it applies to For-Life as well:
Take the money out of the equation. Is it right or wrong to work in conjunction with online spectacle retailers? Whether there are few or many. Whether you make $50 or $5. Is it the right thing to do?

FACTOR OUT THE MONEY AND CONCENTRATE ON PROFESSIONAL ETHICS!

[35oldguy]

Do you own your own business?

If you charge a fee of $50 or more (which includes measurements and a proper fitting) you will be able to cover your expenses.

[Chris Ryser]

To enter this discussion I am wondering about the possibility of getting the FDA involved.

The FDA claims that glasses are under their jurisdiction......that everithing that goes on glasses is part of the device and therefore again under their jurisdiction. A simple UV solution is part of the device.

So i am wondering if all the materials to make glasses needs FDA approval..why should not the finishing and selling be the same thing?

Maybe someone on this forum could come up with an idea to get them interested.

[cinders831]

There's a huge difference between dispensing contacts online vs glasses. Not that either is right, but there is a difference.

There may be a difference but there are similarities, one is that people are buying things places other then your office. It rings loud.

[For-Life]

Yeah, For-Life, it sounds like I won't be doing it, and you will. That's lame. That's like saying you should cheat on your taxes because everyone else does. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

Judy, my point is this, and it applies to For-Life as well:
Take the money out of the equation. Is it right or wrong to work in conjunction with online spectacle retailers? Whether there are few or many. Whether you make $50 or $5. Is it the right thing to do?

FACTOR OUT THE MONEY AND CONCENTRATE ON PROFESSIONAL ETHICS!

I never said I would be doing it.

What I said is that we have to keep an eye out on what is happening and if people start doing it.

If they do then we might have to change.

Do you own your own business?

Yes I do.

Think about it. Take a pair of glasses and take away the cost like frames, lenses, warranties, dr. remakes, ect. and what do you have left?

$50 is quite fair.

[drk]

Here's a question...
If a patient is entitled to their records, what's to keep a former patient from requesting their own records and using the pd from that?

We've been over this before. You (at least in my area) are not required (if you're an independent optician) to release ANY medical records because you don't have any medical records. You just collect Rx's, and those are not medical records. The prescribing Dr. has the medical records. Plus, even if you do feel you need to photocopy your copy of the patient's Rx, p.d.'s and fitting heights are not part of a prescription, last time I looked. You aren't required to release your in-office lens order forms, or whatever you use.

If you are an optometric office, I'd keep the p.d measurements out of the medical record, and they rarely would be there, anyway.

[drk]

I never said I would be doing it.

What I said is that we have to keep an eye out on what is happening and if people start doing it.

If they do then we might have to change.



Yes I do.

Think about it. Take a pair of glasses and take away the cost like frames, lenses, warranties, dr. remakes, ect. and what do you have left?

$50 is quite fair.

Money, money, money.
Is it right or is it wrong?

[35oldguy]

Just one question. Do you work for yourself or are you an employee? If you work for someone and they make a product it is like me going to them and saying I want to buy your product online but for less. Pretty soon you will be out of a JOB!!! Your employer will not be able to afford your salary because he will not be able to make a gross profit!

Perhaps an eye patient's viewpoint would be appreciated.

I think that offering to assist an online buyer with charges for measurements, lens insertion and frame fitting makes sense if the customer wants to bring you a frame that he (she) has bought online that is a frame that you could not retail yourself. A discontinued frame that the customer has managed to locate online, or a frame from a line that you do not regularly carry and would not be in a good position to order. Ideally, you would first take the measurements to ensure that the frame that the customer wants is usable, and then when the customer buys the frame online and brings it to you, you charge for the lens insertion and/or frame fitting. The customer would have to make sure that the frame is returnable to the online seller for an exchange (or better, a refund) if the frame is defective or for whatever reason turns out to be unusable.

But I must admit, I do not know the larger ramifications of you brick-and-mortar retailers forming this kind of loose partnership with online retailers.

rinselberg is NOT an optical retailer!

[For-Life]

Money, money, money.
Is it right or is it wrong?

Norms change.

Look at the things we buy in life and how they are dealt with.

Should companies like 1-800 Contacts be shut down? Of course.

But that is not reality.

[Judy Canty]

I think it's unrealistic to believe that on-line retailers and their customers will just cease to exist by our refusal to provide professional services. We are already providing these same services for free to anyone who walks in off the street and needs them. The logic continues to be that our largesse will convert these free services to paying customers. My reality says that customers will shop where they want to, be it Wal*Mart or LensCrafters or FramesDirect.com. When those customers need my professional assistance, I will happily charge them an appropriate fee. Perhaps they will decide that a more personalized encounter is preferable to "big-box" or on-line transactions. Perhaps not. But in any event, they will know where to come for specific professional Opticianry services.

[shellrob]

Of course it's not reality that they'll shut down, but it is reality that it will be someone else besides myself putting up with that patients online eyeglass purchase problems.

[shellrob]

I'll be sure to send them to Virginia.

[cinders831]

I think it's unrealistic to believe that on-line retailers and their customers will just cease to exist by our refusal to provide professional services. We are already providing these same services for free to anyone who walks in off the street and needs them. The logic continues to be that our largesse will convert these free services to paying customers. My reality says that customers will shop where they want to, be it Wal*Mart or LensCrafters or FramesDirect.com. When those customers need my professional assistance, I will happily charge them an appropriate fee. Perhaps they will decide that a more personalized encounter is preferable to "big-box" or on-line transactions. Perhaps not. But in any event, they will know where to come for specific professional Opticianry services.

AMEN TO THAT!!!! We could win there business, or not but we will be respected!

[drk]

This is getting quasi-religious, but right is right and wrong is wrong, in my book. If you want to practice Opticianry at all costs, then go ahead. If you're open to it, you might want to sign up right now with some of the onliners and start making your professional fee.

Heck, maybe you will be successful by working with the company, and you can clean up their mistakes, and sell them your product instead, if need be.

I just think that any company that is in it to make big bucks online, and quality and care be damned (like the internet CL suppliers) are the worst kind of business: the kind that puts money ahead of people. There is no "quick buck" in this world: you have to earn it. Just what value do these turkeys bring to the market? Sit in your underwear and browse through thumbnail jpegs for the right frame for you? How the heck is a patient going to get a frame that fits? Or looks good, for that matter. How can they judge quality? And I won't even begin to discuss optics, for we all know the answer to that.

Does that sound like a contribution to society? What about saying "screw society, let's just get rich quick!"?

Anyone ever thought that ethics apply to each of us? Individually, at work, at home, with friends, by yourself, with a gun to your head, when you're drunk, whatever. I cannot excuse doing the wrong thing because "it's business".

That's the bottom line for me. Sermon over.

[ikon44]

I don't think I need to justify my reply with reasons why the 2 are different. I know that my acuvue lenses that I've worn for 10 years are the same lenses wherever I get them. It's all the other care that of course is the most important and I won't get into that. Eyeglasses are not a "stocked item". They are custom made for each individual. Like I said before, I definitely do not agree with either, but dispensing each of them is different.

so if you have worn varilux comfort for 5 years, do you think you will get a different lens if a pair of comforts are supplied online with your measurements.?

Drk is correct, there are two seperate issues, one professional and one business.
on both accounts online retailers should not be given one iota of help.
Any optician that supplies measurements is akin to a turkey voting for Christmas.

[Judy Canty]

How are 1 in 100 going to do it without opticians taking the measurements? It's totally in our control. The onliners need us to operate. No cooperation = no onliners.

So how do you suppose that these retailers came into existance? Was it because they saw that the most expensive part of dispensing, the knowledge and skill of an Optician, was available for free?

[35oldguy]

I guess your expenses are somewhat less than mine.

I never said I would be doing it.

What I said is that we have to keep an eye out on what is happening and if people start doing it.

If they do then we might have to change.



Yes I do.

Think about it. Take a pair of glasses and take away the cost like frames, lenses, warranties, dr. remakes, ect. and what do you have left?

$50 is quite fair.

[Judy Canty]

Money, money, money.
Is it right or is it wrong?

You tell me. I've seen Rx's from OD's that expire in as little as 24 hours, in Virginia where it is illegal for a spectacle RX to contain an expiration date unless medically necessary.

Do not lecture me about ethics, EVER!