How's it going with the Definity?

**Spexvet** · 05-06-2005, 03:10 PM

Now that there's some track record, how's everybody doing with the Definity? Non-adapts, sticker shock, what's your feedback?

**PAkev** · 05-06-2005, 08:30 PM

DEFINITY now represents approx. 50% of our PAL sales and we have had fairly positive results. I've returned two pair as non adapts of which both were previous FT wearers. As far as cost, J&J actually dropped the cost and is now available from distrubutors other than only J&J which makes it just as affordable and profitable as other premium PALs. Another positive signal of DEFINITY growth is the expanded range of availability. Now available in both Polarized Grey and Brown it is easier to sell multiple pairs while also keeping the patient in the same lens design. J&J's 40% off the second pair also provokes extending a savings to both the patient and account which again makes the DEFINITY cost on par with other PAL alternatives.

**rinselberg** · 05-07-2005, 05:06 PM

Speaking as a lens wearer (not as an optician), I like what I have heard about Defnity except for one thing: The Gemcoat AR that all Definity lenses come with. This is the AR that J&J puts on it in their factory. Unless they changed their policy --? I think that the Gemcoat AR is a good AR but maybe not quite as "slick" (dirt-resistant, easy to clean) as some of the very newest ARs such as Crizal Alize, Zeiss Carat Advantage, Icoat Vivix Stainless ...

I have never had AR lenses (yet), and I have formed all of my impressions about the ARs by reading the various manufacturer websites and also by reading posts on forums like and including OptiBoard. I understand that it is the topcoat or final layer on top of the AR stack that determines how resistant the lens is to dirt and smudging, and how easy it is to wipe clean.

Is it still a fact that ALL Definity lenses are always finished with the J&J factory Gemcoat AR, or has that policy been changed?

**Ryan** · 05-07-2005, 05:28 PM

You can get Definity's without AR Coat. The GemCoat is not as good as Alize, etc. But it is better than most regular coatings. Our Success rate with the Definity is excellent, but it is excellent with Varilux products as well. Having Poly Trans now available, as well as Polarized, is making things easier to sell mulitiple pairs.

**opticalgenius** · 05-11-2005, 12:03 AM

Ryan

We sure have short memories in this industry. We must really ask ourselves why, why sell and support J&J. Do you remember what they did to the contact lens market in 1987? They started selling to all the chains, and eventually the internet and now there is NO profit to be made in the contact lens market.

Definity brings nothing new to the table with Definity. A 4+ year old Shamir design, Definity hopes to go after the most profitable sector of our industry, PAL lenses.

They are spending so much money on the East Coast with TV ads, that if they can convince the public that Definity is what they want, we will all be in trouble...why

Do not fool yourself, J & J history proves they will sell their product mass market as soon as they can. Their philosophy is to take over a market and run out all others, and with their $$$ they sure can here, hurting all other lens makers.

If you align yourself with them, when they drop prices to $160 or so to sell to all of the chains, don't blame anyone but their supporters for the collapse of the industry..

They are a threat and should be a great concern to all of those who want fair competition in the industry.

**drk** · 05-11-2005, 12:32 PM

I think you mischaracterize what happened in the CL industry in the late 80's.

Vistakon sold to chains, but so did every other lens company as well, and always did. That's a non-issue.

Downward pressure on CL prices only came via the internet, and Vistakon is no more/less guilty than any other CL company. It's not like there weren't diverters from within our ranks as well.

As to the Defininty, I see no reason to believe that there is a "plot" to cut the profit margins out of progressive lenses. Care to elaborate? I don't know where you get the "take over the market and run out the competitors" thing...isn't that what every company would dream of doing?

They're just successful, and I, for one, think they are generally good corporate citizens.

**opticalgenius** · 05-12-2005, 01:30 PM

Just you watch and see then.....

**Bev Heishman** · 05-12-2005, 09:16 PM

Optical Genius,

Are you fitting Definity?Where are you getting your info regarding J & J strategy? We have had excellent success with this product. It is not for everybody. It as well as all the others and in many cases is better due to dual design. It is giving wider intermediate and near as well as less abberation to the periphery. Fitting progressives requires understanding design, patient need, the visual system. We also have tremendous success with this design, Kodak lenses as well as Zeiss. One lens does not fit all.

Remember, that many manufacturers redesign their lens to pick up retailers. From my view in knowing and evaluating designs, forgiveness for not so trained personnel. etc. is common through out the industry. We are never talking the same identical product. No matter how you look at it it is about survival. Almost all manufacturers trying to stay a live redesign and rename product to fit consumers of all pocket books and individuals who are fitting from all back grounds. This is a hard pill to swallow but this is what has been going on for some time.

**opticalgenius** · 05-12-2005, 10:23 PM

First of all, to say that a "dual add" adds any benifit just is not true. This is a complete marketing claim. They fact is Shamir designed this product and the "Dual add" can be duplicatied by ANY other lens manufacter. If the "Dual add" is so revolutionary, why is there no patent on it? Do you agree that 1+1=2? Well, I assume youdo, then putting part of the add on the front surface and the rest on the rear still adds up to the total add power. The fact is, we must look through both sides of a lens to see, and spliting the add offers NO benift in design. I am not saying tha Definity won't work, and PAL works. Do you remember what the biggest PAL flop of all time is? Try the Sola XL. Why was this. Looking back to the days when Sola ruled the world with the VIP, things were rosie for them. They decided to "improve" on the VIP by designing a lens that offered a larger intermediate zone, the XL. What they found was in real life patients didn't want to sacrafice far or near vision area to have a larger intermediate zone.

Fitting Definity offers you no new technology. Dual add is nothing but marketing smack, the 4th reading area is complete hype too. What else do they offer? How are they trying to grow the industry? I have no issues with Zeiss, they offer inovative technology.

Varilux offers truly new innovative designs. Look at Liberty, and Ipseo.

**Clive Noble** · 05-12-2005, 10:43 PM

Hey Optical Genius.... you got me looking at my calendar, It's not April 1st!

The biggest PAL flop of all time is the Sola XL? Maybe with you it is!

I'm still using the lens as one of our basic PALS and I don't remember the last time I had to change design because of non-adapt! In fact, I don't think I ever have

**Darryl Meister** · 05-12-2005, 11:57 PM

decided to "improve" on the VIP by designing a lens that offered a larger intermediate zone, the XL.

My spiel on SOLA XL, "The Lens You Never Knew Just How Much You Loved":

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12500

Best regards,
Darryl

**jofelk** · 05-13-2005, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by opticalgenius

... Do you remember what the biggest PAL flop of all time is? Try the Sola XL. Why was this. Looking back to the days when Sola ruled the world with the VIP, things were rosie for them. They decided to "improve" on the VIP by designing a lens that offered a larger intermediate zone, the XL. What they found was in real life patients didn't want to sacrafice far or near vision area to have a larger intermediate zone...

WOW, the biggest PAL flop of all time, the XL. Who took this poll? At the time the XL was released it was an alternative to the VIP design for first time progressive wearers, not intended to "improve" on the VIP. We have many accounts fitting this lense successfully. After the many years the XL and VIP have been available, they are still two of the most popular. I am a lab guy, I do not fit or sell, but someone must like these lenses because I process quite a few.

**Ryan** · 05-13-2005, 09:57 AM

I think with the comment of biggest progressive flop of all time "the Sola XL", thats all we need to know about "optical genius." (I use that term lightly). I bet if you talk to the Sola folks, they would disagree about that statement. With all the new lenses out there, I still will use the Sola XL for a mid range progressive. Now, if he said Sola Percepta, I might agree somewhat on that arguement.
He talks about all the 'marketing' involved with the Definity, but Varilux has a ton of marketing as well, and I think the Varilux is a good product. Optical Genius might disagree, but most Optiboarders will agree Varilux is a good product. I think the Definity is here to stay, and that's fine with me.

**Darryl Meister** · 05-13-2005, 12:16 PM

Optical Genius might disagree, but most Optiboarders will agree Varilux is a good product.

Have you read his other posts? He is almost certainly an Essilor employee. ;) And, Yes, I think most of us would agree that Varilux makes a good product.

Best regards,
Darryl