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Thread: Hot Topic...Would selling of generic frames and lenses be more interesting???????????

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    Exclamation Hot Topic...Would selling of generic frames and lenses be more interesting???????????

    DocInChina Rising Star


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser

    You are right..........................but you will not get it...............therefore you have to come up with new ideas that have not been done before............and then you have something new.

    If you want to compete on the same level you are going to loose out. If you create your own level you have NO competition to start with, and will be alone until some competition jumps in.





    Chris,

    Seems you and I are on the same page with many field related topics. I have been a proponent of private label product for over a decade. There is alot of branded product available overseas (be that Asia or Europe) that already has POP (point-of-purchase) displays, posters, cases, etc. The prices are typically half the price of famous brand eyewear sold in the US (even with currency fluctuations).

    As far as ophthalmic lenses go, some companies (which shall remain nameless) produce lenses for the big multinational lens companies. It is possible to have the same quality product for less. There are also a few lens companies overseas offering non-branded surface lens work. Most of the non-brand progressive lens molds used by these manufacturers were produced by the same company that produced the molds for the multinationals.

    Forming a new chain is quite possible. Reinventing your own business is also possible. Service, education, pricing, quality, and attractive product is the way to do it.

    Doc
    ==============

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    Blue Jumper I used you Doc .................

    Doc,

    I hope not having abused your thread of this morning by copying it and starting a new one. This argument would have gone lost in the old thread and I think it is important enough to stand alone.

    If we can get some response from the wholesale lab people, they will confirm that on the back of brand name lens envelopes or lens blanks boxes very often you see "made in Singapore", made in "Tailand", made in "Indonesia" and on and on.
    Sometimes they use lenses in their envelopes without any markings where they were made I tested a polycarbonate batch of 12 lenses all packaged in the same type envelopes and tintd them in a Micro Tint black color. They all got to dark shades (80% absorbtion) in 6 minutes but turned out in 3 different colors. When colors do not match, they have different hard coats...... therefore they were made in 3 different places.

    My normal deduction is that they are buying lenses right and left stick them into their envelopes and sell them as their product, which it is not, or the lenses would act uniform.

    Question............... are the large corporate manufacturers just passing on generic lenses and sell them as brand name products.

    We can also start talking about frames where the situation is not any different.

    Will be interesting getting some light on this subject.

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    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    Chris: Yes, I've used many of the lower priced generic lenses and they do vary. Sometimes they will even vary fron one order to the next and in extreme cases within the order.

    If it were posssible to get consistant quality, I would gladly use all generic imports in the lab.

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    On the frame side, and I think this is what you are getting at, I can think of at least one instance where a brand name designer frame collection was apparently a hodge-podge of frames from various countries of origin (and quality levels). I got the impression that the company "shopped" the $5 generic frame booths from China, or Italy (that are so common at Vision Expo East) and simply imported a bunch, labeled them, and voila.

    I guess there is nothing patently wrong about that approach, but the bargain was not passed along to the wholesale buyer.

    If a new chain were so inclined, they could EASILY buy some cheap, very cool stuff, deal with the import/export/tarriff/language/risky deal nature, and private label something great.

    I do believe that D.O.C., a regional chain, did this and formed it's own frame line. They may have had a factory directly do the work, though. Either way, they brought very cool, low-to-moderate quality frames to market that they package-priced with basic lenses.

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    Same thing................

    What I am actually getting at, is that:

    Brand name lens manufacturers have lenses made, or buy non brand lenses and sell them as a certain brand.

    Brand name frame manufacturers will do exactly the same.

    You can get the exact same lens or frame from whoever makes them for the brand name people, as a non brand product if you can find the manufracturer.

    Actually, I just received a few hundred pairs ESSILOR plano lenses in CR39 we use to test our Micro Tints and they all are marked "Made in Thailand" on the back flap, where the front says ESSILOR CR39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser
    What I am actually getting at, is that:

    Brand name lens manufacturers have lenses made, or buy non brand lenses and sell them as a certain brand.

    Brand name frame manufacturers will do exactly the same.

    You can get the exact same lens or frame from whoever makes them for the brand name people, as a non brand product if you can find the manufracturer.

    Actually, I just received a few hundred pairs ESSILOR plano lenses in CR39 we use to test our Micro Tints and they all are marked "Made in Thailand" on the back flap, where the front says ESSILOR CR39.
    Yikes, I've been hijacked. Actually Chris, I think this topic warrants a new thread. To address one issue you brought up...different tinting color for the same lenses can happen even when the same hard coat is used depending on how long the lenses have been sitting on the shelf. Also, manufacturers do change their hardcoats when a better coating is found. All eyewear and lens manufacturers do some outsourcing. The eyewear can either be designed by the eyewear company and then contracted out or they may buy eyewear already designed by the contract manufactuer and lock the style for their own company.

    Branded eyewear has value. I do not think it has to be the most famous brands to sell as long as the styles are great. Actually, many of the brands I imported from Japan were nicer than the popular brands in the US. Often I sold out the lines and my ROI was much higher. No price shopping, better materials, high fashion designs.

    Need to run to Hong Kong....to be continued...

    Doc

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    Bad address email on file Mikef's Avatar
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    Generic lenses and frames would be a good idea if the end customer wanted them.


    At least in the US, Brands out sell generic product 10 to 1.

    Sunglass Hut tried to make up there own brand about 6 years ago. They called the brand CODE. It failed. Most all of the optical chains have private label but they do more business with the big name brands.

    Lenses on the other hand are less Branded. If a customer wants a brand lens then sell them one if not, do what is best for them.

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    In my stores (5), our private labels outsell the designers 10-1 easily! The most important thing though is not to position them to look like house brands. When you go into "Chris Ryser Optical" and 75% of the frames are marked "Ryser Eyes" brand, then the customer will assume that it's your "house" brand and assume it's cheaper, or at least lower quality. In many businesses, the house brand is another name for generic. Generic to me means that it is nondescript, unremarkable, and run-of-the-mill. We carry over 15 private label frame lines that don't resemble each other in most ways. Even the few reps that stop in remark about the awsome "exclusives" we carry. The only thing that make them exclusive is the way we buy them. There's nothing I enjoy more than writing down the name of one of our frames to a potential price shopper and letting them hit the streets. Ok, I lied, it's more enjoyable when they come back and buy it because 1.) they liked the product, and 2.) they couldn't buy it anywhere else.

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    Generic means .....................

    In the pharmaceutacal trade "generic" means a pill which is made with the same formula as the original Rx and therefore can replace it. Usually they are a lot chepaer for the same item.

    In the optical trade I would for example describe a RayBan with all the markings as the original, and exactly the same frame from the same manfacturer but without the trade mark on it a "generic" frame.

    ESSILOR has a lot of their progressive lenses made by a company called BRG which are sold as Essilor lenses. If I would buy a thousand pairs from BRG they would refuse to sell them to me in the original boxes but would mark any other name on it and the original would become a generic lens.

    Rodenstock has been sold to some Swiss interests, new people new management, but the original name is still there, therfore the products are still original, even if the manufacturer is not the same anymore.

    SOLA is packaging polycarbonate lenses that come from X amount of different manufacturers into their envelopes and sell them as the SOLA brand. SOLA has a polycarbonate lens factory in Rhode Island that will sell their lenses as any brand you want. Jonhson and Johnsos is buying part of their semi-finished bifocals and progessives from them. Others get then in plain envelopes.

    It actually boils down to the bottom line,,,,,,,,,,,,that if you think you are buying a brand name product..............very often ..........you are not. You might be buying the generic lens or frame you have refused to buy because it had been made by some obscure source you never heard of and the price was too cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser
    It actually boils down to the bottom line,,,,,,,,,,,,that if you think you are buying a brand name product..............very often ..........you are not. You might be buying the generic lens or frame you have refused to buy because it had been made by some obscure source you never heard of and the price was too cheap.

    Contact lens companies have been making private label product for years. Patients readily accept it and it increases practice loyalty. Why many of our brethren feel it is a giant leap to do the same with ophthalmic lenses and eyewear is something I never understood. Economically it certainly make sense.

    What I have found when contacted by wholesale distributers or practioners is that they only care about price, not quality when it comes to ophthalmic lenses or eyewear. All single vision lenses are not the same. Different manufacturers have different quality. The quality of the molds, monomer, the QC, the multicoat equipment, how the molds are cleaned, etc. Many times when people ask for a quote, they only care about price, not quality. Private label product is less expensive than multinational brands because there is no advertising built into the price, but private label (non-branded product) is not free. Utilize private label product both for its cost savings and quality. Educate your patients and let them know why you are using or recommending this product. Let them know that a well advertised product does not necessitate the best product.

    Doc

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    Chris Ryser: "I just received a few hundred pairs ESSILOR plano lenses in CR39 we use to test our Micro Tints and they all are marked "Made in Thailand" on the back flap, where the front says ESSILOR CR39."

    Essilor has owned and operated a factory in Thailand for 15 years.

    Chris Ryser: "ESSILOR has a lot of their progressive lenses made by a company called BRG which are sold as Essilor lenses."

    BBGR is a fully owned division of Essilor.

    Essilor keeps no secrets on either issue. The products are Essilor designed and made.

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    Brother is watching.......................

    Quote Originally Posted by impact500
    Essilor keeps no secrets on either issue. The products are Essilor designed and made.
    Thank you for the clarification. It's nice to know that you people are watching Optiboard activities.

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    i agree with Johns i have a smattering of designer names, mixed with generic, i sell more of the generic, but i think the clients need the reassurance of the big names.
    Just as an aside i used to spend a fortune on printer cartridges as i have 2 HP and 1 Brother printer,I now go to a shop that sells non branded cartridges for my printers and i now spend 50% less on ink cartridges and despite warning of
    death and destruction from the printer companies if i dont use the branded product everything is great.
    funnily enough my printer guy still sells the branded cartridges as some customers insist on having them... and this is despite him offering a money back
    no hassle guarantee if they have the generic one !! :hammer:
    To find out what,s happening in the UK optical market:
    http://theOptom.com

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    Lets be frank........................

    All our old time famous name frame manufacturers with their specialist's, designers, technicians machinery are not manufacturing any more. They have become at the best repackeging houses for the products the buy and have made elsewhere.

    They are having the frames made in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Indonesia, India and many more places.

    They are paying license fees of $ 1.00 to $ 5.00 per frame for use of a particular fashionable personality or other brand name.

    Quality can be controlled and ordered. Any manufacturer can make frames of any basic usable material which is defined by cost and price.

    What the optician is calling a branded frame is nothing else than a generic frame qhich has been given a name, is sold at a higher price that also includes the cost for advertising and it becomes a more valuable item than it actually is.

    I have seen at many of the Vision Expos all the oriental booth's in a corner with frames that could compete with any and each of the high class so called brand name frames. However these stands were mostly un-visited by Vision Ecpo visitors who crowded the elegant city-blocksize booth of Luxottica and als.

    Tell me now what is the definition of a high class quality frame between brand name and generic status??????????.........One for sure is price!

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    Probably the only difference, Chris

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    Essilor has their RX Club in Canada where you can order surfaced lenses over the internet for cheaper than your lab.

    They have a progressive called RX Choice, which is their least expensive. It is the Super Noline, but if you order RX Choice with transitions they cannot use the Super Noline since it does not come with transitions, so several times I have received Varilux Panamic transitions for probably a third or a quarter of the price as I would usually get.

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    TO BE FAIR:

    There is a certain amount of value added by the big frame companies. In this conversation, we are discounting the brand-name appeal, but that does cost something, if you want it.

    They also market the frames, to various extents. They have to buy, piece together a collection, etc, etc. Print cases, make POP, advertise to whatever extent that they do in the trades, or fashion mags. They have to produce and maintain catalogues.

    They also have to be able to support our "consignment" mentality.

    They do provide discounts and dated billing, so that's a financial service.

    They have a far higher degree of service than the "Made in Japan" booth at VEE. They have to train reps. They have warehouse issues, inventory control, operators, etc.

    BUT, they seem to be able to do all that and still buy retail chains, so I don't exactly think they're going broke on each and every frame.
    Last edited by drk; 03-10-2005 at 02:04 PM.

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    No good behavior ............................

    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life
    .

    ......................so several times I have received Varilux Panamic transitions for probably a third or a quarter of the price as I would usually get.
    If they are undercutting their own prices by 2/3rds or 3/4s they are either giving you generic lenses or are prostituting themselves and should be ashamed.

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    You just got to the main point of expensive.................

    Quote Originally Posted by drk
    TO BE FAIR:


    They also have to be able to support our "consignment" mentality.
    You just touched the sorest point in a frame importer/.wholesalers way of thinking.

    Can you imagine what it costs to please your fancy to keep frames in consignment? And when you dont want them no more it is not you that sells them out a at reduced price.

    It is the wholesaler that has to throw them into the garbage.

    Who do you think is paying for it, you are.............and so is your patient with your markup on top of it.

    If you guy;s would actually buy the frames instead of keeping consignments it would actually be a sale for the distributor without take back policies.
    Frame prices could drop instantly by 30-50%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser
    If they are undercutting their own prices by 2/3rds or 3/4s they are either giving you generic lenses or are prostituting themselves and should be ashamed.
    Well it is seperate from the usual labs, so it was probably just semi-finished that was extra and needed to be surfaced.

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    Chris Ryser: "Lets be frank........................
    All our old time famous name frame manufacturers with their specialist's, designers, technicians machinery are not manufacturing any more. They have become at the best repackeging houses for the products the buy and have made elsewhere."

    In an effort to be frank, care to name who you are talking about?

    Chris Ryser: "It's nice to know that you people are watching Optiboard activities."

    Please clarify what "you people" means.

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    Redhot Jumper You people ......................................

    Quote Originally Posted by impact500

    Please clarify what "you people" means.
    Whenever on the Optiboard somebody gets a fairly hot or violent reaction to a remark made, that could be felt as an attack against the integrity of a named by name supplier or manufacturer affecting our trade, I check back on the post made and who made it.

    Now don't take the following comment on personal level:

    I can call you "you people" anytime I want, you have no face, no address, to me, you only have what you claim to have. I know for sure that you type on a keyboard behind or above a computer which may be yours or not. Your only identity is the pseudo name and other details you registered with on the Optiboard. It was your choice to become a "you people" !

    I went on Google, asked for your pseudo name and got the following quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Google
    OptiBoard Discussion Forums - Unionization of Wal-Mart?
    ... 3. 4 Days Ago. impact500. Rising Star. Join Date: Jun 2000. Posts: 61. All Sam's
    Club optical shops are run in-house by WalMart and around ...
    www.optiboard.com/forums/ showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=11989 - 69k - Cached - Similar pages
    and that was all.

    When you do a search on Google on my name, who chose not to hide behind a pseudo identity, you can just about get my life story.

    So now after having explained the "you people issue" I am assuming that you must be either an Essilor lover.........or employee, ............or shareholder that is not able to divulge the qualified origin of your statement,

    Essilor keeps no secrets on either issue. The products are Essilor designed and made.
    as other Essilor spokes poeple do.

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    Chris Ryser: "I am assuming that you must be either an Essilor lover.........or employee, ............or shareholder that is not able to divulge the qualified origin of your statement"

    Chris, you did not search hard enough.

    I'm Mike Schaus and the connection between my name and impact500 is available on the web. In fact I believe I've cited it here previously.

    I'm not an Essilor employee nor shareholder. They make good lenses. I wear a different brand for what that's worth.

    The information about Essilor that I cited to correct/clarify your comments are readily available on Essilor's web site. Your comment [Essilor keeps no secrets on either issue] "as other Essilor spokes poeple do" stands in contrast to the ease by which I tracked down the facts on their Thai factory and BBGR.

    On the second point, care to answer my earlier question copied below in context:

    Chris Ryser: "Lets be frank........................
    All our old time famous name frame manufacturers with their specialist's, designers, technicians machinery are not manufacturing any more. They have become at the best repackeging houses for the products the buy and have made elsewhere."

    In an effort to be frank, care to name who you are talking about?

    Chris, it's easy to dump on companies. Finding facts take a little more time but only a little.

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    Do a little more research..........................

    Quote Originally Posted by impact500

    In an effort to be frank, care to name who you are talking about?

    Chris, it's easy to dump on companies. Finding facts take a little more time but only a little.
    Now that you have come out the bush, we can continue the conversation.

    What you have been saying is no secret to me as I am very familiar with the mentioned company going back to the 1950's, not only commercially but also on personal basis. I did not hack the company just mentioned that the labels said Thailand. If I would not like said lenses I would not have bought them and the many thousands before them.

    I do not like to dump on companies by their names. There are so many of them that I admire technically, product wise and the smart way of marketing, but do not agree with their imperialistic commercial policies of rushing forward to eliminate their competitions.

    In the matter of frame companies I have done your suggested research a week or two ago and listed quite a few on the Optiboard on another thread and if you would have followed the post's you would have seen it. Now you can do a lottle more research on the Optiboard postings and find it and you will have your answer.

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