Zeiss lens materials...

[drk]

I've recently become enamored with Zeiss, the company (and it's not because they are buying my business ) and have this question to the board:

Zeiss' 1.6 plastic: Is it the same old MR-6, or something newer? I think the latter, but can't find any info.

Is their 1.67 the MR-10?

Question about the progressive design:
IF (and that's a big if) we can believe their pitch, the "Top" part of the Gradal Top is clearer. What compensations do they make to achieve this?

1.) They just drop the progressive corridor an extra 2 mm from the pupil
2.) They make the inferior periphery harder
3.) Both
4.) Neither
5.) Don't question the Germans, if you know what's good for you.

[optowalt]

#5 if you know whats good for you.

[For-Life]

Funny story, I recently have been doing some research on free-form lenses. So Zeiss sent me some marketing **** just like every other company. They show comparisions between traditional PAL's, the Gradal Top, and the Individual. Like every other PAL company out their they really exaggerated it, but the clearness between the individual and the top was minimal; however, the Top was extremely clear and the traditional was like looking through a crack in the wall.

I felt it was a little too much.

[omisliebling]

Definitely #5 !!! Don't ever question a german :cheers:

:)

[PAkev]

:finger:
#5 Married to a German for 14 years.

As James Taylor puts it
I've seen fire :angry: and I've seen rain

U noz vat I min

[omisliebling]

I've been a german for 37 years (wow that's a long time :) )

And I too have seen :angry: and but also:) and:hammer: and lots of:cheers:

[kv21467]

The difference between Gradal Top 1.6 and the Seiko 1.67 MR-10 is minimal, there by making it a great candidate for drill mount frames and the abbe value is higher than Poly, higher abbe - better optics! As for the first question, asked about the distance vision...it's because ALL Zeiss progressives are fully, (optically) aspheric. This eliminates the spherical aberration that is inherent in the majority of the popular progressive addition lenses...If specific MR numbers are needed for Gradal lenses they can be obtained. I hope that this is helpful.:o
I work for a German company...they don't mind if you ask a million questions, really.

[Chris Ryser]

All manufacturers do some re-hashing of existing products..................new labels............new packaging...........but inside is the the same old product that they want to get alife again. This is not direcvted to ZEISS ,.......they ALL do it. Actually they did it 30 years ago and probably earlier than that too.

Dont take the marketing always to serious.

[LENNY]

2 more questions!

Does Zeiss has a finished or semifinished SV poly?
Can you tell if it is for shure Zeis AR ( exept Gold)?

[Chris Ryser]

ALL Zeiss progressives are fully, (optically) aspheric. This eliminates the spherical aberration that is inherent in the majority of the popular progressive addition lenses

What you did not say. is, that the lateral distortion created through the progressive part of the lens is still there, as it is in every other brand of progressive lenses.

So now you have a lens that has no spherical aberration in some parts of the lens and is as full of distortion as everybody else's products in the same line.

That much for big corporation Bull S............ advertisiing, perefect vision on the upper half of the lens not mentioning the lower half.

[Spexvet]

I've recently become enamored with Zeiss, the company (and it's not because they are buying my business )

OK, I'll bite. Is Zeiss buying your business?

[drk]

The reason I'm enamored with Zeiss, is, ironically, marketing.

While Zeiss is not even on the map when considering direct-to-consumer marketing, such as Essilor or Transitions, they have a special kind of appeal that no other lens company does.

Here's my thinking: after trying for awhile to build lens brand awareness with my patient population, I've generally gone over with a "thud". Sure, people recognize Varilux and Transitions, but sort of the way they'd recognize Kleenex.

It seems that the majority of the market is not going to be impressed by a lens brand. The response to "Genuine Varilux Lenses" is pretty good, but not enough for my liking.

However, there is a smaller segment of the market that is "optics brand sensitive", be they your engineers, physicians, techno-geeks, whatever. And for those who truly, truly, can appreciate the concept of high-quality optical designs, Zeiss is a very recognizeable name. My new strategy is to use the best name for these people, and focus my efforts on the group that really cares.

If you check out the Zeiss website, it pretty much blows you away without trying to. This is a world leader.

I've been successful for a long time with their coatings, even though I've put them mostly on other products. I feel that I can make a big differentiation for my practice is we are a "Zeiss" optical, and use their lenses for all our specialty needs.

My current concern: while this makes marketing sense, I want to look before I leap to make sure Zeiss products deliver the "top of the line" optics, materials, and service that I would be promoting. Any input on that question would be most appreciated.

[Chris Ryser]

drk,

Your just made a perfect sermon for ZEISS who is still the oldest optical company around. They probably have more inventions in the optical field that ranges from Instruments to lenses.

However they are not much different in todays world in the way of trying to beat some of the others for world domination of the optical field. Zeiss is also doing corporate takeovers as does LUXOTTICA and ESSILOR. The only difference that they done it in relative silence and less in North America than in EUROPE and elsewhere.

So dont sing the arias too loud, you might become one of their employees before you reach retirement age.

:D

[Fezz]

DRK-I have always been a strong supporter of Zeiss. I had the same idea of creating the name recognition, quality optics, not a "sold everywhere else" type lens as some other brands. We went thru the "Zeiss Expert" traing to become certified "Zeiss Experts" and get on their web site. But---truth be told, I do not sell nearly as many Zeiss lenses as I had in the past. Three things swayed me 1. It took them sooo loonng to come out with a short corridor lens. 2. It is my understanding that they have launched a lens only avilable thru Walmart(Kathy, jump in and correct me if I am wrong), and I believe that they have aligned them selves thru Davis Vision because i was in one office on a visit and noticed that the "tower" had a Zeiss lens border around the top! 3. Although some patients did recognize the name, most could really give a damn and just wanted to know if that was going to cost them more! So, I support a lens company by positioning it as a "premium" product that you will not find at all the cheapie, big, who cares opticals, and then they "develop" a lens, only available to Walmart and advertise on Davis Vision towers and my patients now think that I fed them a line os sh*t! I do like their lenses. They scored really well on the Sheedy Report. Sorry for being so long winded! I currently dispense a lot of Shamir product, some Zeiss, and some Image.


Fezz
:cheers:

[drk]

Fezz:

I took great interest in your post. I know I'm kind-of a latecomer on the Zeiss bandwagon.

The practices you've mentioned do concern me greatly.

Is it understood what exactly is going on with the Walmart thing? Is the "arrangement" with Davis Vision to sell Zeiss lenses to cheap-o Davis Vision jobs?

If so, then they don't "get it" and I'm much less likely to support them.

As a note, I'm trying to "support the companies" that "support the independents", be they optical labs or opticals.

Are there any out there?

[Jedi]

Fezz,
I thought this might be of interest to you. In Canada, our equivilent to Lenscrafters, Shopper's/Shorney's Optical, sells Shamir lenses exclusively. In fact I do not believe independent practices can obtain Shamir lenses, or at least not easily. These lenses are not rebadged versions either. Food for thought.

[For-Life]

Fezz,
I thought this might be of interest to you. In Canada, our equivilent to Lenscrafters, Shopper's/Shorney's Optical, sells Shamir lenses exclusively. In fact I do not believe independent practices can obtain Shamir lenses, or at least not easily. These lenses are not rebadged versions either. Food for thought.

I think you are right that independents cannot get it in Canada. The Shoppers Optical/Shamir lens deal is a very comical one. Shopper's takes a very well received lens and then coat it with a cheap, tacky, dip A/R coat that wears off in three months. If you take your thumb and fore finger and pinch the lens as hard as you can you can actually pull off their coating. Additionally, they sell the coating on most of their progressives. To add to it they put it in those pathetic rims frames.

It is like eating a steak off of a garbage can lid. You can have the best lens in the world, but if a customer is furious because they cannot see through a pealed off coating then you got nothing.

[Jedi]

I think you are right that independents cannot get itin Canada. The Shoppers Optical/Shamir lens deal is a very comical one.Shopper's takes a very well received lens and then coat it with acheap, tacky, dip A/R coat that wears off in three months. If you takeyour thumb and fore finger and pinch the lens as hard as you can youcan actually pull off their coating. Additionally, they sell thecoating on most of their progressives. To add to it they put it inthose pathetic rims frames.

It is like eating a steak off of a garbage can lid. You can have thebest lens in the world, but if a customer is furious because theycannot see through a pealed off coating then you got nothing.

I was an Assistant Manager there a few years ago and I still havefriends there. I guess the company bought three coating machines lastyear and couldn't afford to give anyone raises. I was lucky though,when UTMC opened their coating facility in Calgary our lab managerwould take stuff to UTMC to get coated, fast and good. But for the mostpart my days there were spent doing redoes on crazed lenses.

[Chris Ryser]

It is like eating a steak off of a garbage can lid. You can have the best lens in the world, but if a customer is furious because they cannot see through a pealed off coating then you got nothing.

I was lucky though,when UTMC opened their coating facility in Calgary our lab managerwould take stuff to UTMC to get coated, fast and good. But for the mostpart my days there were spent doing redoes on crazed lenses.

And here is an excert out of their website,

and

who is right ???????????????????............................

According to Steve Machol, SOLA's Director, AR Services, "UTMC is a proprietary system that matches the lens material with the hard coating and AR coating so they all bond inseparably. The result is an advanced AR product that is remarkably durable and highly scratch resistant." Also, thanks to high quality control, residual colour is always the same and single lenses can be replaced without worrying about unequal reflections.

[Fezz]

Jedi-Thanks for the tip on Shamir! Very interesting.

Also, how many of us have seen patients come in with an "Adapter" progressive from one of the big chain stores. They have lousy luck with it and claim that they "need" the actual Varilux brand because they have been told how superior this Varilux brand is by somebody. I then always enjoy telling them that the two "brands" come from the same company! ;^)

So, does it pay to promote a particular brand? What lens company should we be behind if they all seem to be everything to everybody? Why as a practice should we spend 2 or 3 X more $$$ on Zeiss, Varilux or Shamir when I could sell Navigator, Image, Sola XL and VIP, Outlook and end up with more $$$ at the end of the day. I actually do sell some off of that last list and do very well with adaption rates and patient satisfaction. And, as many on this forum have stated before, it is more about the fit, measurements and patient education then the "brand" or "design".

Great thread and lets hear what you all have to say. Thanks to DRK for starting this one!



Fezz
:cheers:

[For-Life]

And here is an excert out of their website,

and

who is right ???????????????????............................

According to Steve Machol, SOLA's Director, AR Services, "UTMC is a proprietary system that matches the lens material with the hard coating and AR coating so they all bond inseparably. The result is an advanced AR product that is remarkably durable and highly scratch resistant." Also, thanks to high quality control, residual colour is always the same and single lenses can be replaced without worrying about unequal reflections.

I can tell you right now that the Shopper's here does not use UTMC. They use an ar coat with a painted on colour, similar to the colour of :D .

I have used UTMC. Even though I have had troubles with it UTMC is still way better than the junk they are using.

Edit - Chris, I think that is what you were getting at.

[For-Life]

Jedi-Thanks for the tip on Shamir! Very interesting.

Also, how many of us have seen patients come in with an "Adapter" progressive from one of the big chain stores. They have lousy luck with it and claim that they "need" the actual Varilux brand because they have been told how superior this Varilux brand is by somebody. I then always enjoy telling them that the two "brands" come from the same company! ;^)

So, does it pay to promote a particular brand? What lens company should we be behind if they all seem to be everything to everybody? Why as a practice should we spend 2 or 3 X more $$$ on Zeiss, Varilux or Shamir when I could sell Navigator, Image, Sola XL and VIP, Outlook and end up with more $$$ at the end of the day. I actually do sell some off of that last list and do very well with adaption rates and patient satisfaction. And, as many on this forum have stated before, it is more about the fit, measurements and patient education then the "brand" or "design".

Great thread and lets hear what you all have to say. Thanks to DRK for starting this one!



Fezz
:cheers:

Of course. We know that the biggest reasons why we hear "I am always look for the reading part", "I just could not get used to them," or "I cannot see out of these" is because there are too many people out there that just cannot fit.

You named Adapter, Navigator, and VIP - But do not forget about the original, least expensive PAL: Super Noline. Never had a person who could not use the SNL.

[Chris Ryser]

You named Adapter, Navigator, and VIP - But do not forget about the original, least expensive PAL: Super Noline. Never had a person who could not use the SNL.

Just never forget that manufacturers re-package lenses in other name, or, brand boxes and sell them as another lens or through other distributoirs as a generic product.

This has been a practice in the optical lens business for over 40 years, it was done then and is done now, which means your genmeric no brand lens might the best one from a major manufracturer.

[Fezz]

Chris = (sarcasm mode on)You mean to tell me that the big lens manufacturers would re-package an existing design under a different name and really try to hoodwink us all? Oh, and how they all told us that the minimum fitting height that was 22mm high is now fine at 18 mm high. I thought they were all so honest! They always have such nice POP and graphs that tell us how much better blah, blah, blah! I am crushed! Damn this busines! (sarcasm mode off) ;^)

Fezz
:cheers:

[For-Life]

Chris = (sarcasm mode on)You mean to tell me that the big lens manufacturers would re-package an existing design under a different name and really try to hoodwink us all? Oh, and how they all told us that the minimum fitting height that was 22mm high is now fine at 18 mm high. I thought they were all so honest! They always have such nice POP and graphs that tell us how much better blah, blah, blah! I am crushed! Damn this busines! (sarcasm mode off) ;^)

Fezz
:cheers:

Don't you know that every lens gives 25 percent more reading and 15 percent more distance room?