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Thread: Liberalism Blossoms

  1. #26
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    1. You are obviously not from the bay area. Most of the toll money does not go to the bridges, which in effect nullifies your lower tolls higher taxes argument. I believe NY is in the same situation.

    2.OK

    3. NOT! Nice try. What I was getting at, was that I was under the impression that abortion was a medical procedure between a woman and her doctor. You injected concscience which I found fascinating, since that implies some right and wrong equation, which wouldn't be what I would expect from a liberal in favor of choice. Hence, what is your concscience telling you?

    HARDLY A FOOLISH QUESTION TO ONE WHO IS EVOLVED!
    Listen closely, this is valuable advice: do not assume you know anyone's complete world view based on a label. I am in favor of choice; this is not to say I don't think abortion is a sin.
    Last edited by chm2023; 12-02-2004 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #27
    Listen carefully to me as well. I was not making any assumptions as to what you personally think abortion is or is not. And as far as sin goes I have no opinion.

    I was bringing up what I thought was an intriguing, and enlightened question, which I will restate.

    Why does conscience play into a choice for or against abortion, if it is not a moral descision?

    And if it is a moral choice, why is that never dealt with by the enlightened left. Specifically, why doesn't NOW and Planned Parenthood have a stance, teaching, doctrine, or whatever you want to call it, with respect to the conscience, when it is apparently 1/3 of the choice making process with a woman and her doctor?:o

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    I am in favor of choice; this is not to say I don't think abortion is a sin.
    chm2023, can you clarify that statement, please?

  4. #29
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    Why does conscience play into a choice for or against abortion, if it is not a moral descision?
    Conscience is a learned sense. Anyone who attended some form of religious education has been taught that abortion is wrong. Now, even though some folks have the freedom of will to decide if abortion is right or wrong for themselves there is still probably guilt over making that decision.

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    And if it is a moral choice, why is that never dealt with by the enlightened left.:o
    Enlightened people allow others to make those decisions for themselves, based on their own set of morals. No one labels themselves "pro abortion", we are "pro choice". This has nothing to do with the decision we would make ourselves. It means that we respect others enough to allow them to do, with their own bodies, what is best for them. Even though you would force women to have babies that they do not want, someone who is pro choice will never force a woman to terminate a pregnancy.
    So the real question for women is: "can I do what I choose to do with my own body, or do I have to do what mrba tells me I have to do with my body".
    ...Just ask me...

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jo
    Conscience is a learned sense. Anyone who attended some form of religious education has been taught that abortion is wrong. Now, even though some folks have the freedom of will to decide if abortion is right or wrong for themselves there is still probably guilt over making that decision.
    Jo,
    do you have any science to back this up? I am of the impression that morals develop long before one can expirience a religion...

  7. #32

    Don't change the subject Spexvet. Please stay on topic.

    So the real question for women is: "can I do what I choose to do with my own body, or do I have to do what mrba tells me I have to do with my body".
    There are those who believe the choice effect two bodies, not one. And that finding is harldy crazy.

    But Spex, you have again missed my point completely. It is a FACT, that many women regret their abortions for years, triggering a depression response as well as other terrible psycological reprocussions. It is not a happy dance, or the relief it is sold as.

    I found CHM's statement on conscience quite profound. It implies that the government allows its citizens to injur their psyche, and hence in line with the topic of this thread.

    For a primer on fallout in mental health from abortion...

    http://www.afterabortion.org/

    http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/post_a...depression.htm

  8. #33
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    Jo,
    do you have any science to back this up? I am of the impression that morals develop long before one can expirience a religion...
    You are right. Your parents and those around you would start that learning process.

    I see why you questioned the concept of conscience.
    I found CHM's statement on conscience quite profound. It implies that the government allows its citizens to injur their psyche, and hence in line with the topic of this thread.
    Is it the government's job to be a watchdog of the human psyche?

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    Jo:

    Almost all women come to have regret and depression (guilt actually) eventually after an abortion. It does not last "for years" it lasts forever.

    As to governent becoming the guardian of the human psyche, why not they seem to want to take over our responsibilty (the hoipaloy being too stupid to be trusted with this themselves) for everything else. "Thou must wear seat belts. Thou must wear a helmet." Lots of other thou must(s) from government both real and immagined.

    And yes once upon a time the several states did print thier own money (need any Confederate money? I can always use a Yankee dime.

  10. #35
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1968
    chm2023, can you clarify that statement, please?
    I don't really know how to clarify this. I feel abortion is a sin; I don't think it should be a crime. I feel adultery is a sin; I feel avarice is a sin; I feel not honoring one's parents is a sin; however, I don't advocate any of things be made illegal. Does this help?

  11. #36
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    Listen carefully to me as well. I was not making any assumptions as to what you personally think abortion is or is not. And as far as sin goes I have no opinion.

    I was bringing up what I thought was an intriguing, and enlightened question, which I will restate.

    Why does conscience play into a choice for or against abortion, if it is not a moral descision?


    And if it is a moral choice, why is that never dealt with by the enlightened left. Specifically, why doesn't NOW and Planned Parenthood have a stance, teaching, doctrine, or whatever you want to call it, with respect to the conscience, when it is apparently 1/3 of the choice making process with a woman and her doctor?:o
    Of course it's a moral decision. The rub is whose decision--the woman (and her husband) or the government.

    RE PP and NOW, if you are really curious,why don't you ask them? I'm sure they have answers and an info office. My guess is their mission is to facilitate whatever decision a woman makes, not seek to influence or judge it.

  12. #37
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Jo:

    Almost all women come to have regret and depression (guilt actually) eventually after an abortion. It does not last "for years" it lasts forever.

    As to governent becoming the guardian of the human psyche, why not they seem to want to take over our responsibilty (the hoipaloy being too stupid to be trusted with this themselves) for everything else. "Thou must wear seat belts. Thou must wear a helmet." Lots of other thou must(s) from government both real and immagined.

    And yes once upon a time the several states did print thier own money (need any Confederate money? I can always use a Yankee dime.
    I find it comical that one can hold the view that the government has no business telling me I must have my children wear seat belts (protecting living children), but it's ok for them to tell me whether or not I should have children (protecting zygotes).

  13. #38
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    Neglicence vs intent, legal vs moral??? Or perhaps just because our political/legal systems are sometimes backwards?

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    Chem2023:

    No one wants you to have children. No one cares what you do with your body, you may destroy it tomarrow if you wish. Now it's murdering children already concieved that we have a problem with.

    And yes this is same difference I see in seat belts. One should be allowed to take one's chances or even deliberate destruction of one's own body. The destruction of others is another matter.

    The fact that you cannot see the difference is very, very sad.

    Chip

  15. #40
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Chem2023:

    No one wants you to have children. No one cares what you do with your body, you may destroy it tomarrow if you wish. Now it's murdering children already concieved that we have a problem with.

    And yes this is same difference I see in seat belts. One should be allowed to take one's chances or even deliberate destruction of one's own body. The destruction of others is another matter.

    The fact that you cannot see the difference is very, very sad.

    Chip
    Wait a second there friend. YOU are the one who riles against the gov't insisting on seatbelts and helmets--read your post "Thou shall etc:" Now you want to say, oh ok, for children it's another matter.

    I will state again what I have stated before, if you think abortion is the same thing as murdering children, and you are aware of abortions taking place and are not doing something to stop it, you lack the courage of your convictions and should be deeply ashamed. It's one thing to flap your gums, it's another to act on your beliefs. After all, what does talking cost you? A whole lot of nothing. Do something and then we'll talk.

  16. #41
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    As to governent becoming the guardian of the human psyche, why not they seem to want to take over our responsibilty (the hoipaloy being too stupid to be trusted with this themselves) for everything else. "Thou must wear seat belts. Thou must wear a helmet." Lots of other thou must(s) from government both real and immagined.
    Chip,
    The seat belt and helmet laws were championed by INSURANCE COMPANIES, who were tired of paying large medical bills for injuries that could have been prevented. I'm surprised you are not behind this, because it:
    A. Keeps insurance premiums lower than they would be without these laws.
    B. When the victim is uninsured, his/her healthcare bill is covered by goverment programs. Reducing this amount keeps some of your money from going to taxes for this purpose.

    BTW: don't you want the government to take over the responsibility of the "stupid hoi poloi" when making decisions on terminating a pregnancy, marrying someone of the same gender, etc? Don't you espouse taking the decision making away from the individual on those items? Sounds like a double standard to me.
    ...Just ask me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    I am in favor of choice; this is not to say I don't think abortion is a sin.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    I don't really know how to clarify this. I feel abortion is a sin; I don't think it should be a crime. I feel adultery is a sin; I feel avarice is a sin; I feel not honoring one's parents is a sin; however, I don't advocate any of things be made illegal. Does this help?
    I do understand that point. But why do you feel abortion is a sin?

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    As to abortion, I do speak out and vote against this every time I have chance. I must admit that I seem to lack the courage to go out in the street to protest against this. I suppose for ecconomic reasons but I do applaude all those that do.


    I feel that whenever we have or support laws that we know are wrong we collectively share the guilt of the crime allowed. Those opposed to capital punishment ( I am not opposed to this, if the guilt is certian) but we all share the guilt of same. Those opposed share for allowing it. Those in favour share the guilt when people are shown to have been innocent after execution, or guilt for those spending incarceration and later shown to have been innocent (not to be confused with not guilty.)

    And if any of you feel that Chip feels he is without sin or forgiven, I am the only member of my church that is convinced he is going to Hell for his sins of the past.

    Chip

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jo
    You are right. Your parents and those around you would start that learning process.

    I see why you questioned the concept of conscience.
    Is it the government's job to be a watchdog of the human psyche?
    Try telling any government official that you are contemplating suicide, and see what happens. You wont have a choice at that point. But furthurmore as Mr. Machol often points out, the constitution says the govt. should protect the welfare of the poeple, hence I would infer from that mental health.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    I don't really know how to clarify this. I feel abortion is a sin; I don't think it should be a crime. I feel adultery is a sin; I feel avarice is a sin; I feel not honoring one's parents is a sin; however, I don't advocate any of things be made illegal. Does this help?
    Murder?

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    Of course it's a moral decision. The rub is whose decision--the woman (and her husband) or the government.

    RE PP and NOW, if you are really curious,why don't you ask them? I'm sure they have answers and an info office. My guess is their mission is to facilitate whatever decision a woman makes, not seek to influence or judge it.
    Yes, but my point is that PP is more than happy to get you the abortion... But when it comes to picking up the suicidal pieces that last for years they are nowhere to be found. The Govt. is willing to make abortion legal, but is nowhere to be found years after the fact either.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by chm2023
    I find it comical that one can hold the view that the government has no business telling me I must have my children wear seat belts (protecting living children), but it's ok for them to tell me whether or not I should have children (protecting zygotes).
    For someone who is so keen to "dim witted" (your words) comments, you sure do have quite a few of your own.

    The only person who can decide whether or not you have children is you, regardless of abortion legality. We call that making choices. There are also more crass terms I wont bother with.

  23. #48
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    Murder?
    Opinion?
    ...Just ask me...

  24. #49
    Read what I quoted and extrapolate.

  25. #50
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    Yes, but my point is that PP is more than happy to get you the abortion... But when it comes to picking up the suicidal pieces that last for years they are nowhere to be found. The Govt. is willing to make abortion legal, but is nowhere to be found years after the fact either.
    Are you insinuating that the government should pay for therapy for women who have had abortions, and later regret it? Are you, Mr. "No Tolls", willing to contribute taxes for programs like that?

    PP will enable a woman to carry out her choice. Please don't act like they have an annulal "Christmas Abortion Sale".

    Please provide factual backing for your assertion of post-abortion women having suicidal tendancies. I'd like to see the percentage that those women represent as a portion of the general population.
    ...Just ask me...

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