People were quite happy with slavery and black people not having the same rights as whites. "Why must things change" they would say.Originally Posted by 35oldguy
People were quite happy with slavery and black people not having the same rights as whites. "Why must things change" they would say.
I see a bit of a conundrum in homosexuality. Homosexuals represent a proportionally higher level of achievement and education and is evidenced by their socioeconomic placement of well above mean.
Given their higher education the understanding of evolutionary imperative should cause them to reason that the defining behaviors are counter the very essence of life. Further, the behavior denies mankind the benefit of the genetically desirable traits that facilitate their achievement. I would go a step further than that and suggest that their emotional make up is also conditioned, as the result of persecution and cultural bias, to be a healthier overall psychological disposition.
So to me the tragedy is one of loss. "...the loss of any man diminishes me..."
If there is no genetic cause for the desire then, as a culture, effort needs to be directed at understanding the dynamics and offering a solution.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift
Actually I saw many, many hours of research on this and male vs. female and all things in between seem to be currently blamed on the amount of testosterone the mother has available at what time while the embryo is in the womb.
That don't make it bibicly correct though.
Chip
And no I did not learn whether this testosterone was available from her own system or furnished by her significant other.
As I understand it many men have the chromosome indications of female, yet in all appearances they are physically functioning men.
The characteristics of male and female have a range that almost seems like a connected circle. There are men from very masculine to very feminine, without being homosexual, and similarly women who range from very feminine to very masculine without being homosexual. And you have hermaphridites(sp).
I have a vague understanding of microevolution, which is accepted by many Creationists as occurring, which begs the question what, if any mechanisms are in the human genome that exclusively prevent the blurring of gender characteristics in light of the fact that almost all other characteristics of humans are subject to change? Is it presumptuous to assume that this one area is uniquely different from the others? .
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift
Being a straight male, I know that I am not attracted to other men. Therefore, if it was psychological and not biological, wouldn't other men be attracted to other men? I always love when "straight" people tell gay people to surpress their desires. For you to believe it is psychological it makes me believe that you have similar desires and you have surpressed them. If we are not supposed to love people from the same sex, then why are some people made that way?
I think you need to stick to the words "gay" and "straight" (or some version therein). "Normal" is subjective. Using it to describe something that conforms would not describe me, AND i'M STRAIGHT.How does it hurt you not to be normal? How do people that are gay hurt me? Morally, to me, God did not plan the human race this way! It is abnormal behavior!
In terms of Biology, normal means "functioning or occurring in a natural way." As many of us have established, homosexuality is something you're born with, like brown eyes. Therefor, it occurs in nature so being gay or straight is normal.
Also, don't forget that there are many Christians that give birth to gay children. So your God must not be totally against homosexuality.
You still have not clued us in as to how gay marriage harms you. Not every gay couple is so flamboyant and over the top that they'd be shoving it in your face. Heck, I'd be willing to bet you come into contact with many homosexual people and you don't even know it. How would it matter if they were married and wore a ring?
It wasn't all of a sudden. Go google Stonewall Riots and you'll see. this was building for a long time. Stonewall was for them like Rosa Parks and the marches on Washington were for African AmericansWhy all of a sudden has this changed?
Why should I have to? This has nothing to do with religion. This is about the state banning the rights of a group. I couldn't give a rat's **** about if a church doens't want to marry same sex people. I wasn't married in a church and I wouldn't want to force the parishioners to do anything in their house of worhip that goes against their beliefs.In the Bible show me where God planned for people of the same sex to be this way. Convince me!
But, I will say, one logical reason the Bible promotes sex, babies and not homosexuality is they needed bodies and believers in their churches. Easiest way to make a believer is to have them be born into the church.
Interesting replies on this board! A real education! Gays are different from straight people and straight people are different from gay people. As long as the two groups do not try to force thier way of life upon you then there is no harm being done!
Does this satify most peoples way of thinking?
...To Me. The question was "How does same gender marriage hurt you?"
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Shouldn't that be "as long as the groups don't try to force their way of life on each other"?
I remember as a young boy hearing one of our astronauts remark as he circled the globe as to the absence of lines…
I’m fairly certain that the distribution of sexual orientation is constant as the distance from the equator is increased.
I will be eternally grateful that I got to know my sisters bride, Shannon. We were as different as oil and water and yet we had great love and respect for each other. And every day after her death I still miss her. This I know to be true and I wish everybody will have the chance I had to learn of love.
Same sex marriage helped me grow it has not hurt me.
That’s all I have to say about that!
It does not in the least personally. Morally it is an obsession that the Bible, if you are a Chritian believer, says is wrong. If you are not what the heck. Do as you please!
Then you've answered the question!:cheers:
Anything else is a whole different matter!
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
Thank you. End of subject!
Then you've answered the question!:cheers:
Anything else is a whole different matter!
I'm Baptist, and believe Jesus is my savior, yet I know many people that are homosexual. They are wonderful individuals that I trust implicitly, whom I would feel comfortable raising my daughter if, God forbid, something happened to my husband and I. Morally, according to my faith, it's wrong. That's the one thing I pray for all the time-that someone is not judged or condemned for their orientation. There are many heterosexual people I would not trust with my child, and many that I would. My aunt was in a relationship with a woman for 13 years. Sexual preference has nothing to do with morals. I know WAY too many straight people that are not what I would consider "good people". Same with races. Saying you don't like homosexuals is the same as saying you don't like blacks, asians, women, jews, or any other ethnic group. It's just another form of being sexist or racist to me.
"You can't think about it, you just gotta let your brain do the work....."
my dad
Don't forget that the bible tells you not to get a tattoo, eat shellfish, work on Sunday, trim the hair on the sides of your head, wear cotton/polyester blended clothing (or fur/cloth), eat pork, pay your employees daily. So, instead of focussing on same gender marriage, how about getting your own house in order.:finger:
And you persecute people for this! Hmm..
Banning same gender marriage is one way of forcing a belief on someone, IMHO.
Thanks! That's mighty kind of you.
I would pay more attention to what your heart and mind tell you, not what someone else or a book tells you. :cheers:
Jcasowder, nice answer and I believe very true. How is it your a Baptist, the most legalistic of the lot, and have come to your very reasoned and caring position?
From the gay men that I have known one thing seems to be a constant and that is their relationship with their fathers. They usually either were never close or in conflict. And I haven't run across anyone who "wanted" to be gay.
I agree with your logic about having no real problem with a gay couple raising your child, as in the senerio you presented. I believe based on what I have seen that a pair of loving parents is far more important and has far more significant impact on a child regardless of sexual orientation, than anything else, education or economic conditions. And if the influence of distance from the parents does in any way foster this disposition it would stand to reason that two loving male parents would not be any more likely to raise a gay son than heterosexual couples.
I don't see a movement to cram it down our throats iI see what we have seen throughout history, namely an oppressed group reaches a point where they are compelled to stand up and confront the circumstances that create their oppression. So we should expect some over the top actions for the sake of attention and as a result of having been compressed so far for so long, like a spring under tension final released.
As to AIDS, homosexuality is not the cause of AIDS it is just one way to transmit it. AIDS is not the result of homosexual activity just like gonaria (sp) is not the result of hetrosexuality, just one method of transmition not caused or created by hetro or homo sexual activity.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift
Spex:
The bible tells you not to labor or let any within thy gate work on The Sabath (Saturday) for it is the Lord's. It doesn't say anything about what you do on Sunday.
The advise about tattoos is very good advise, despite what some young social wierdos think. No one ever looked better or appeared more intelligent as a result of having tattoos.
Now in your case the latest thing in England replacing tattoos is branding, and equally repugnant and dangerous procedure. You should try it.
Chip
(Only the secular humanist will try to resolve this issue with science! Don't trust current science too much, folks.)
The only basis to answer this question PERSONALLY is religion. Suffice it to say that the God of Abraham, Issac, & Jacob, YHWH (that is, the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible) repeatedly discourages and forbids homosexuality. Why? Ask Him. I'll not speak for Him, here.
However, we are really talking about how we CIVILY solve the issue. This is a question about America (I'm too ignorant of Canadian principles of government) instead of about homosexual marriage. We're talking about how "plural" a country can be.
Christians find themselves in a tough position in this day and age, and aren't quite sure how to behave when civics are involved.
Last edited by drk; 05-21-2009 at 02:41 PM.
I share some sceptism of the secular humanist ideals but in science its influence is filtered by the scientific method.
If we are considered to be in a fallen state and sin is manifest as a result are we limited by what we can do so that we can only use religion to address the influence of sin?
If we say homosexuality is the result of sin and only through God can sin be addressed and in the process we deny the gifts of reason and intellect given to us by our Creator are we standing on well reasoned ground?
Death itself is the result of sin and so to must be the progression toward it yet we have extended and continue to work toward extending the life expectancy of humans on earth. We are nearly double the life expectancy of a few hundred years ago. Is this a subversion of Gods law?
Obesity was thought to be the result of sin so was mental illness and leprosy yet science has given us understanding that enabled us to treat many of these things. How can we know that homosexuality is not another "sinful" condition that can be understood through science?
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift
Angryfish, that's an amazing post.
I'll have to reduce that and analyze as I go, because I haven't thought about it nor had it discussed before...
You're saying:
1. If one stipulates that the universe is "under the curse" (which is in need of further definition, BTW), then what exactly are the ramifications of the curse?
2. Are we futile in light of God's curse, or are we to sally forth?
3. Is, somehow, sexual behavior related to these concepts?
That's a good summation.
As for "fallen state", I would say that anything less than perfection, in terms of the biological systems of man, is the result of the inevitable fall. Given free will its just a matter of time. If not Adam, then Cain, if not Cain then Abraham, if not Abraham, then you or I, just a matter of time.
I have begun to question the literal and by transference leagalistic dogma that is handed down and think that context is important as is the limited ability to understand a God and His ways so far outside of our comprehension.
There are some problems with this, for example Jesus needs to be literal, death, resurrection, and assention, in order for His claim as the Only Way to be true.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift
Angry, we're getting into rare theological air which is probably not appreciated on this thread.
You're obviously a mature Christian, and I'd like to discuss this stuff with you via PM.
Thank you, but I shy away from any thought that any maturity I seem to display is reflected in all my actions. I would likely be judged more "un-Christian" on balance if I were as know to all as I am know to myself.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift
I think it's more about whether we are going to discriminate against those who are different than us. Is that what America stands for?
It is funny. I know several gay people. They (the ones I know, not the stereotypes):
- contribute to the economy
- provide other intangiable benefits such as entertainment, friendship, and leadership
- they do not commit crimes
- they pay their taxes
The only negative, as seen by some, is that they like people from the same sex. Seriously, aren't their more important things we should be fighting to stop than this???? I mean, it is not like we are present when they have relations.
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