GOP National Convention

**Spexvet** · 09-20-2004, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by mrba

Can you prove that the unborn is not alive? And if so what percent are you sure? 99%?

Can you prove that the unborn is alive? And if so what percent are you sure? 99%?

**chm2023** · 09-20-2004, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

Can you prove that the unborn is alive? And if so what percent are you sure? 99%?

Spexie,

I don't think this is provable/unprovable if by alive you mean being a person--after all, what's the definition of that? That is the crux of the whole issue I suppose. For myself, there are degrees of being alive--is someone on life support "alive"? Most people have no problem with this limited form of euthanasia, i.e. taking someone off life support. Well if you want to be a purist, this is taking a life. I guess my point is, it's not as black and white as the extremists on both sides suggest.

The depressing thing is we are becoming a society that hasn't the will or brain or God help us, the attention span, to fully consider issues. It's all yes or all no and bombs away. It's not the meek that are inheriting the earth, it's the simple-minded who sit at the feet of demagogues. Every fallen civilization fed its own decline, why should ours be different? (I've been reading up on Iraq, it tends to put one in a black mood!!

)

**Spexvet** · 09-20-2004, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by chm2023

Spexie,

I don't think this is provable/unprovable if by alive you mean being a person--after all, what's the definition of that? That is the crux of the whole issue I suppose. For myself, there are degrees of being alive--is someone on life support "alive"? Most people have no problem with this limited form of euthanasia, i.e. taking someone off life support. Well if you want to be a purist, this is taking a life. I guess my point is, it's not as black and white as the extremists on both sides suggest.

The depressing thing is we are becoming a society that hasn't the will or brain or God help us, the attention span, to fully consider issues. It's all yes or all no and bombs away. It's not the meek that are inheriting the earth, it's the simple-minded who sit at the feet of demagogues. Every fallen civilization fed its own decline, why should ours be different? (I've been reading up on Iraq, it tends to put one in a black mood!!

)

I was just throwing mrba's question right back at him. Seems he doesn't realize that this question, if provable, would settle the everything - but it truly can't be answered by either side.

**Pete Hanlin** · 09-20-2004, 03:05 PM

Well put, and incredibly liberal of you!
Well, I've been called a lot of things, but "liberal" is a first.
;)

Regarding prosecution, I do not believe abortion has ever resulted in murder charges- even pre- Roe v. Wade. Of course, that's before my time, so perhaps someone with a better knowledge of history in this area can enlighten us.

Concerning abstinence, while I agree that it cannot be the only message sent to our young people (for practical reasons), it does dismay me that many educators scoff at the idea of even mentioning abstinence. Speaking religiously, the funny thing is that people view the moral prescriptions of the Bible as being overly "restrictive" or "unrealistic." Viewed objectively, however, following these rules does usually lead one to a much happier life. I mean, imagine if everyone actually waited until they were married to have sex. It wouldn't solve all problems- but could you imagine how much better off society would be? "Abstaining" from adultery, drunkeness, and other sins generally leads to a happier life as well. Just an observation.

I plan to tell my son and daughter (on a day that will come all too soon, unfortunately) "Look, if you want to avoid any chance of contracting a STD or becoming/causing a pregnancy, abstinence is the only guaranteed way. Furthermore, speaking from experience, sex is absolutely one of the greatest and funnest activities in the world- but nothing that lasts only 1-2 hours is worth paying for the rest of your life. That said, if you DO decide to engage in sexual activity, understand there are real consequences to your behavior. While I will always be here to love and support you, some of these consequences could be beyond my power to help. Now, go talk to your mother if you have any particular questions!"

**chm2023** · 09-20-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin

Well put, and incredibly liberal of you!
Well, I've been called a lot of things, but "liberal" is a first.
;)

Regarding prosecution, I do not believe abortion has ever resulted in murder charges- even pre- Roe v. Wade. Of course, that's before my time, so perhaps someone with a better knowledge of history in this area can enlighten us.

Concerning abstinence, while I agree that it cannot be the only message sent to our young people (for practical reasons), it does dismay me that many educators scoff at the idea of even mentioning abstinence. Speaking religiously, the funny thing is that people view the moral prescriptions of the Bible as being overly "restrictive" or "unrealistic." Viewed objectively, however, following these rules does usually lead one to a much happier life. I mean, imagine if everyone actually waited until they were married to have sex. It wouldn't solve all problems- but could you imagine how much better off society would be? "Abstaining" from adultery, drunkeness, and other sins generally leads to a happier life as well. Just an observation.

I plan to tell my son and daughter (on a day that will come all too soon, unfortunately) "Look, if you want to avoid any chance of contracting a STD or becoming/causing a pregnancy, abstinence is the only guaranteed way. Furthermore, speaking from experience, sex is absolutely one of the greatest and funnest activities in the world- but nothing that lasts only 1-2 hours is worth paying for the rest of your life. That said, if you DO decide to engage in sexual activity, understand there are real consequences to your behavior. While I will always be here to love and support you, some of these consequences could be beyond my power to help. Now, go talk to your mother if you have any particular questions!"

Well there you go, I totally agree with you. I don't have the answer to the prosecution thing and am too lazy to look it at the moment. I suspect there is a grayness in this area that reflects the real moral dilemna this issue represents to a lot of people. (PS, I think the "let Mom do it" is in every husband's genetic code. My husband couldn't deal with the girls because he felt he would embarrass them; couldn't deal with the boys because he felt he would intimidate them. Oh please!!)

1-2 hours? Alright, whatever you say.

**Jana Lewis** · 09-20-2004, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by mrba

Can you prove that the unborn is not alive? And if so what percent are you sure? 99%?

Look... you've read my responses here, you know where I stand... I am not wrong in my beliefs, as you are not either. If I choose to have an abortion ( which I hope I never do ) I will have no problem knowing what I did for my myself and anyone else involved was the right choice.

Simply put MRBA- I am EXTREMELY happy that your not making any decsions about me and my body! Thank goodness! :p

**fvc2020** · 09-20-2004, 03:56 PM

I must respond to the questions posed: Yes I would take my 14 year old daughter for a full exam by a gyn and if need be supply her with condoms if she desired to give in to "pleasure of the flesh" I would hope that she would make better decisions then this, but I would stand up with her.

**Spexvet** · 09-20-2004, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by fvc2020

I must respond to the questions posed: Yes I would take my 14 year old daughter for a full exam by a gyn and if need be supply her with condoms if she desired to give in to "pleasure of the flesh" I would hope that she would make better decisions then this, but I would stand up with her.

deleted

**chm2023** · 09-20-2004, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by chip anderson

Someone should sentance Jana Na Shanebaum to six-months of listening to

Dr. Laura. She knows right from wrong. Lots of women appearently hate her fro pointing out that they do not.

Chip

This would be the Dr Laura who is divorced, slept her way to the top, who was estranged from her mother (who, you will recall was apparently murdered and found, alone in her apartment, and estimated dead for a couple weeks)--that Dr Laura???? Knowing right from wrong is only half the battle; living it is the other.

I can see why this person would be considered a guru of good old fashioned family values; nonetheless as I have not been divorced and have my mother living with me, perhaps I should give her advice??;)

**Pete Hanlin** · 09-20-2004, 04:45 PM

1-2 hours? Alright, whatever you say.
:p Hey, just wanted to see if anyone actually reads these posts...

Anyway, I don't anticipate having any trouble talking to my kids about the birds and the bees (given what's on TV these days, they'll be able to tell ME a few things in a couple years- my 10 year old son was actually dismayed to hear Brittany Spears is now married- the boy apparently has high aspirations, if somewhat faulty taste)...

I won't mind laying down the basics and giving some fatherly advice to both of them, but I can definitely see myself referring my daughter to the wife for any "follow-up" questions. I have a feeling the teenage years are a lot easier for the guys than the gals (then again, I come from a family of all boys, so I don't really have anything to compare).

For now, I'm just enjoying actually being able to use the phone, car, and bathrooms whenever I want- before my two hit their teens!!!

**mrba** · 09-20-2004, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

Can you prove that the unborn is alive? And if so what percent are you sure? 99%?

I am 100% sure that given an EEG and a heartbeat the unborn baby is definately alive.

If you were knocked unconcious in a car accident you would want to be held to the same standard?

**Jana Lewis** · 09-20-2004, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by mrba

I am 100% sure that given an EEG and a heartbeat the unborn baby is definately alive.

If you were knocked unconcious in a car accident you would want to be held to the same standard...

Talk to your congressman... :)

**karen** · 09-21-2004, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

Rather than the negative position of "you can't have an abortion", I would like to see anti-choice supporters take a positive position, where they promote adoption, or a support women. It could be that some financial support, a place to live healthcare coverage or day care would convince a woman to continue a pregnancy.

Wow,I ignore this thread for a couple of days and it gets wild and crazy.

Spexvet, I submit to you that the folks at Planned Parenthood could try this as well and I know from personal experience that they don't offer these options. No one counsels you on other alternatives there. I admit to not liking the idea of the government telling me what I can and can't do with my body but since I happen to think that in this particular instance it is murder it makes the "choice" issue a moot point. Let me tell you a story..When I was 8 weeks pregnant with my now 11 year old son I had what they call a "threatened abortion"-they thought I might lose the baby. I was rushed in to the doctors office, drank a million gallons of water and hooked up to the ultrasound machine. I was reassured by the technician that the baby was fine because she could see it's heartbeat, which she turned around and showed me on the monitor. This happened 2 more times before they figured out I needed some more progesterone but by 9 1/2 weeks I had had 3 ultrasounds where each time I could see the baby's heartbeat. Somewhere in the middle of that first visit I flashed back to my personal visit to Planned Parenthood several years before where at 8 weeks pregnant I made a decision that suddenly seemed like the wrong "choice". No one there ever talked to me about what the fetus whould be like developementally at that stage or offered any other options. They took my money and did their job-the people standing outside with signs offerered other alternatives but I did not listen. So for me, having been on both sides I have personal experience that colors my opinions on a very passionate ( on both sides) issue. I wish that as Pete said the choice took place when people decided whether to keep their clothes on or to use protection. I don't think that is unreasonable. That was probably too much info but I figured I should defend my point before hand...

**chm2023** · 09-21-2004, 09:52 AM

Karen, if I understood your post, you approached PP because you had made a decision to have an abortion. You expected them to give you info that would make you uncomfortable with your decision? Is this their job?

Perhaps I misunderstood.

**Spexvet** · 09-21-2004, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Spexvet

Rather than the negative position of "you can't have an abortion", I would like to see anti-choice supporters take a positive position, where they promote adoption, or a support women. It could be that some financial support, a place to live healthcare coverage or day care would convince a woman to continue a pregnancy.

Originally Posted by karen

Wow,I ignore this thread for a couple of days and it gets wild and crazy.

Spexvet, I submit to you that the folks at Planned Parenthood could try this as well and I know from personal experience that they don't offer these options. No one counsels you on other alternatives there. I admit to not liking the idea of the government telling me what I can and can't do with my body but since I happen to think that in this particular instance it is murder it makes the "choice" issue a moot point. ...

Karen,
I think the difference is that PP is not trying to force people to have an abortion, whereas anti-choice people are trying to force people to continue their pregnancy. My advice was to help anti-abortion activists acheive their goal without imposing their values on others. It isn't PP's goal to remove a woman's right to choose, it's to carry out a woman's choice.

IMO opinion, there is a difference between anti-choice and anti-abortion. Pete discribed it well. I have no issue with anyone being anti-abortion, just don't take the choice away from those who choose differently.

**chm2023** · 09-21-2004, 01:19 PM

Check out the Calvin Trillin book "Obliviously On He Sails: The Bush Administration in Rhyme." Sample verse re Ashcroft's statement that we in the US have no king but Jesus:

The only king we have is Jesus
And I feel blessed to bring the news
The only king we have is Jesus
I can't explain why we got Jews.

I am a big Trillin fan, and this is exceptionally clever stuff.

**Judy Canty** · 09-21-2004, 02:20 PM

So now that we've opended this can of worms...how do we feel about those poor souls in a persistant vegetative state?

**coda** · 09-21-2004, 02:40 PM

All this discussion of abortion (which I should note I instigated with a humerous aside) has me wondering how far apart we really are. I think a good core question is as follows:

Given that other forms of birth control are available do you believe that solely using abortion as a method of birth control is acceptable (i.e. no form of birth control is used except abortion)?

**Pete Hanlin** · 09-21-2004, 02:44 PM

If I'm that poor vegetative soul, please yank the plug ASAP! As much as I enjoy this life, I have no qualms in departing when my time has come (just remember- its not an end, just a new beginning).

Florida recently had a big bru-haha over a young woman whose husband decided to terminate life support. The family lobbied in court to keep her on support indefinitely. I was watching a show about finances, and the lady (who gives financial advice on TV- I forget her name) indicated you should definitely have a stipulation in writing that you do not wish to be supported indefinitely. Apparently, the insurance eventually runs out and your family can be left with devastating bills.

**chm2023** · 09-21-2004, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by coda

All this discussion of abortion (which I should note I instigated with a humerous aside) has me wondering how far apart we really are. I think a good core question is as follows:

Given that other forms of birth control are available do you believe that solely using abortion as a method of birth control is acceptable (i.e. no form of birth control is used except abortion)?

Heavens no!!! Every effort should be made by parents, teachers, gov't to inform sexually active people of their options. In a perfect world abortion would go away because unwanted pregnancies would go away.

**chm2023** · 09-21-2004, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin

If I'm that poor vegetative soul, please yank the plug ASAP! As much as I enjoy this life, I have no qualms in departing when my time has come (just remember- its not an end, just a new beginning).

Florida recently had a big bru-haha over a young woman whose husband decided to terminate life support. The family lobbied in court to keep her on support indefinitely. I was watching a show about finances, and the lady (who gives financial advice on TV- I forget her name) indicated you should definitely have a stipulation in writing that you do not wish to be supported indefinitely. Apparently, the insurance eventually runs out and your family can be left with devastating bills.

I was stunned to see Jeb Bush interfere in this on behalf of the parents. Talk about the government getting in your business.

**Spexvet** · 09-21-2004, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin

If I'm that poor vegetative soul, please yank the plug ASAP! As much as I enjoy this life, I have no qualms in departing when my time has come (just remember- its not an end, just a new beginning).

Florida recently had a big bru-haha over a young woman whose husband decided to terminate life support. The family lobbied in court to keep her on support indefinitely.

And here, I thought Jeb got all the brains in that family!:)

BTW, has Jeb started his campaign for 2008 presidency?

**Spexvet** · 09-21-2004, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by chm2023

Heavens no!!! Every effort should be made by parents, teachers, gov't to inform sexually active people of their options. In a perfect world abortion would go away because unwanted pregnancies would go away.

Perfect answer!

**Pete Hanlin** · 09-21-2004, 04:04 PM

BTW, has Jeb started his campaign for 2008 presidency?
Not a chance in the world, in my opinion... The day George called up and said he was running for President eliminated any chance for Jeb- and I'd imagine there'd have to be some regrets for Jeb in it all.

The aforementioned affair with the parents aside, Jeb has done a simply fantastic job as Florida's governor. The Florida One initiative is one of the best social policies I've ever seen, and I'd have to say if there's any Republican I'd like to think I'm similar to, it would be Jeb. I certainly hope this young man finds some way to stay in public service after his second term is up (perhaps a run for Senator, if he decides to go up against Katherine Harris, who will probably run next go round).

My future GOP dream ticket is Santorum/Jeb Bush. That would be one to get me back into active campaigning (last time I actively campaigned was for Al Gore in his Tennessee Senate run).

**rinselberg** · 09-21-2004, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin

BTW, has Jeb started his campaign for 2008 presidency? Not a chance in the world, in my opinion... The day George called up and said he was running for President eliminated any chance for Jeb...

I almost never venture into OB politics, aside from my national security and foreign policy interests, but I am curious about the comment here from Pete. Is Jeb Bush effectively precluded from running in 2008 because the electorate would not like the idea of too much of one family as President: George 1, George 2 -- just can't accept the idea of a third "President Bush"? Or is it more complicated than just that?