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Thread: GOP National Convention

  1. #126
    Is it November yet? Jana Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fvc2020
    After reading all of the posts here, I felt a need to put my two cents in. I am a woman who belives in the rights of an unborn child. I state that first, so that anyone stating men are imposing on the will of woman are wrong. I and my doctor(as well as other woman we know)are having trouble having babies. Let's reiew the law prior to roe vs wade.

    Abortion was allowed in the following incidences: In case of rape, incest, and if the health of the mother was in danger. Jana your example of rape is invalid due to the above. Bev is made a educated decision about children due to her health. I know it was hard, but a wise decision.(Bless you). I have know no one to mention incest, so I can't comment on that one. So what does it leave?

    Let's see the 14 year old girl who "got"pregant? What the heck was she doing having sex? So played like an adult, act like an adult and take responsiblity for your stupid action. Oh I forgot, we have abortion. Why does her life have to be toast? Can she be responsible and give the baby up and go on with her life? Can the baby grow up to be responsible? So she'll be "fat and ugly" for nine months, so what it's called responsiblity. Also where is her right to have be informed about birth control? Is she going to say "I didn't know where babies come from" Gimme a break. If a child is going to have sex, then she can learn about birth control and use it. to heck with birth control for the sake of no babies, what about aids, stds etc. She decided not to use condoms because of what?

    People(men and women)need to look at the big picture. Do I think a woman has a right to choose what is best for her and her body? Of course I do, but what about the child inside? I read a real good thought on this recently. It asked what if the child inside is a girl? You know have taken her right to choose. Is the right thing to?

    Jana, I'm not sure why you think to unwanted babies are abortion. I have friends who were adopted and they have turned out great. I think of my friends who want a "baby"and can't. When I bring a new person to my family, it won't matter the age. My husband and I want a toddler or older. Adoption for us will be easier. However there are millions of couples who want infants, abortion takes that option away to those couples. How would you feel if you wanted a baby and couldn't no matter what? What would you do? The waiting lists are huge for an infant. You do become selfish and hate abortion even more. Believe me.

    As for government regulation. I hate the fact that I am forced to endure the culture that abortion on demand has made. We created birth control(good thing if used)and then legalized abortion. The Sexual Revolution was born. No more responsible people. Do what you want with no consequences. Since the late 60's it has been a spiraling downfall of despair. I'm not saying purity is going to happen, but as Pete said, why have laws in place for anything.(Sorry Pete, edited alittle)I could list all sorts of issues, but that would take forever.

    This was a great thread:-) It made people be strong in their words. Strong in their beliefs.

    Christina
    Christina-

    I respect your beliefs. However... I never said that I think that abortion is "the only resolution " I would prefer that adoption be a viable option for women experiencing an unwanted pregnancy. I will agree that my scenario only pointed to abortion as an option. Faux paux on my part.

    My biggest point here, is that I thouroughly believe that I/any woman should HAVE A CHOICE as to what to do with their bodies.

    Let me ask the Pro-life crowd out there.....when was the last time you volunteered for a mis-placed child organization? When have you volunteered your time to a food bank to help needy children? Big brothers? Big sisters? If you have....BRAVO to you! Too bad there are not more of you who share that ideaology.... if there was, perhaps the Pro-life/pro-choice debate would be null.

    Here's the deal.... no government/ no man/ no woman/ should ever tell me that I have to carry a pregnancy to term. Bottom line.....
    Jana Lewis
    ABOC , NCLE

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  2. #127

    Bev

    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    So Bev, you should have the choice to jump off of a cliff as well? I think choosing the clothes you wear versus choosing to end a living being's life are two very different things.
    Regarding this post someone put the following negative points in my reputation

    ..."If she wants to jump off a cliff, so be it"...

    I used to think the reputation points were totally stupid, but they have revealed how totally stupid participants truly are, when they don't have to admit to their stupidity by showing their identity.

    Bev, I want to be very clear, I do not want you to jump off of a cliff.

    mrba

  3. #128
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    Jana:

    You have a right to your beliefs and do not worry about a man/woman/government telling weather or not it's all right to murder your own unborn child. You need not worry about the judgement of any of these.

    But I would worry forever about whose judgement You will have to face. And unless I have read His book wrong, He has said it's a no, no.. And yes, He does have the right to "tell" you and judge you.

    Chip:hammer:

  4. #129
    Is it November yet? Jana Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Jana:

    You have a right to your beliefs and do not worry about a man/woman/government telling weather or not it's all right to murder your own unborn child. You need not worry about the judgement of any of these.

    But I would worry forever about whose judgement You will have to face. And unless I have read His book wrong, He has said it's a no, no.. And yes, He does have the right to "tell" you and judge you.

    Chip:hammer:
    Sorry Chip.... can't agree with you there. This all boils down to "when life begins" I personally do not think it begins at conception. Does the bible mention when life begins? ( please excuse me for my arrogance) I'll admit I am not very well-versed as far as the bible is concerned.

    Let me ask you this.... do you think birth contol is wrong? Or against God's judgement?
    Jana Lewis
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  5. #130
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    Jana: Doesn't matter what I think, matters what God thinks.

    But yes, I think abortion is murdering your own child. But my opinion doesn't matter.

  6. #131
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin

    Anyway, I'm not into forcing anyone to do anything- the law of the land indicates that an unborn child has no right to life, so who am I to keep people from engaging in a legal activity?
    This is why you are pro-choice. There is a distinction between pro-life and anti-choice. You don't condone abortion, but you won't compel others to behave the way you would or the way you want them to behave. Big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    I could do without most "morality" laws.
    Okay, so we can repeal the minimum wage (after all, why should an employer have any moral obligation to pay a living wage). Also, child labor laws should be tossed (no moral obligation to our kids). Child abuse should no longer be prosecuted (who's to say if its wrong to beat your child- abortion would seem to be the most extreme example of child abuse- no?). We can also do away with drunk driving laws (alcoholism is a disease, so why should we judge actions that spring from it- we don't punish people with hypertension for having heart attacks). In fact, all laws involve morality- since you have to appeal to morality in saying that it is "wrong" to disobey a law.
    Luckily, I included the all-important "most" clause.

  7. #132
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin
    Jana that's really not such a quandry. The 14 year old having no means to raise a child has a moral obligation [to the child] to give it to someone who does have the means and ability to properly raise that child.

    -K
    Who's morals makes her obligated?

  8. #133
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    S/he has his/her own unique brain waves, blood type, genes, and potential as an individual.
    Just when does a zygote/fetus have brain waves? Does a 4 cell embryo? This is the ambiguity that causes the conflict. You believe that life begins at conception. I will say that I don't know when life begins. And I would say that you really don't know, either. But we all can agree, I think, that a child is a child when it is born. Ask yourself this: does a first trimester miscarriage get teated the same as a child who has passed away. Is there a funeral, burial, last rites? Probably not. Depending on your belief system, the embryo, that you call a child, may not go to heaven, because it has not been baptised or accepted Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    Of course, all this is sanctimonious babbling. Fact is, we have plenty of children who have been born for whom society seems to care little. In my opinion, the biggest hypocrasy of the pro-life movement is this- while they are so keen to protect children during the first 9 months of their lives, many seem to take little action to provide for children who survive beyond. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of friends who have adopted children, contributed to educational and other programs, etc. However, by and large, Americans turn their backs on children.
    My point from a previous post. Let the pregnant woman know that you'll care for her during the pregnancy, and adopt the baby afterward, and you'll reduce abortions. It doesn't seem to be that hard of a strategy, yet the anti-choice movement just wants to compel others.

  9. #134
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin
    ...Again with the moral pushing argument, it just doesn't hold water because the same can be said of so many laws and government policies.
    In this case, I think it does hold water.
    There are two sides to every argument. In this case, one side is
    - you cannot have an abortion.

    Logically, the opposite of that argument is
    - you must have an abortion.

    Yet the "liberal" side is
    - You can decide if you should have an abortion.

    The difference? Anti-choice does just what Jana said: it PUSHES its values on others. IMHO conservatives tend to do this, and maybe they don't realize it. They seem to think "this is the way I see things, so everybody else should, too". They don't see that someone else's view is as legitimate as theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by keithbenjamin
    BTW, this is probably one of the most civil and rational discussions on this topic I've ever encountered. Bravo to all involved. I wonder how long it will last. ;)

    -K
    I was so tempted to be rude, just to mess with you, but I won't.:bbg:
    :cheers:

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jana Lewis
    BRAVO! Shanbaum! I couldn't have said it better myself!

    I noticed that no one (except shanbaum! ) has commented on the man/woman aspect of this. Any takers?
    I believe that's sexist. These rights should extend to any man who gets pregnant!

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by fvc2020
    After reading all of the posts here, I felt a need to put my two cents in.

    Let's see the 14 year old girl who "got"pregant? What the heck was she doing having sex? So played like an adult, act like an adult and take responsiblity for your stupid action.
    I think it's a lot to expect a 14 year old, who gave in to "pleasures of the flesh", to take on the rest of the responsibilities an adult has.

    Quote Originally Posted by fvc2020
    Oh I forgot, we have abortion. Why does her life have to be toast? Can she be responsible and give the baby up and go on with her life? Can the baby grow up to be responsible? So she'll be "fat and ugly" for nine months, so what it's called responsiblity. Also where is her right to have be informed about birth control? Is she going to say "I didn't know where babies come from" Gimme a break. If a child is going to have sex, then she can learn about birth control and use it. to heck with birth control for the sake of no babies, what about aids, stds etc. She decided not to use condoms because of what?
    Would you give your 14 year old daughter condoms? Isn't it conservatives who fight sex education in school? But I'm sure they teach it home, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by fvc2020
    As for government regulation. I hate the fact that I am forced to endure the culture that abortion on demand has made. We created birth control(good thing if used)and then legalized abortion. The Sexual Revolution was born. No more responsible people. Do what you want with no consequences. Since the late 60's it has been a spiraling downfall of despair. I'm not saying purity is going to happen, but as Pete said, why have laws in place for anything.(Sorry Pete, edited alittle)I could list all sorts of issues, but that would take forever.

    This was a great thread:-) It made people be strong in their words. Strong in their beliefs.

    Christina
    I would hate to have to endure a culture where choice was taken away from women who want to end a pregnancy.
    Last edited by Spexvet; 09-19-2004 at 04:05 PM.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Jana: Doesn't matter what I think, matters what God thinks.

    But yes, I think abortion is murdering your own child. But my opinion doesn't matter.
    Chip, Please answer Jana's question. I'd also like to know where the bible says abortion is against God's law.

  13. #138
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    The question really comes down to "when does "it" become a human?". Animals exhibit post-birth behavior in-utero, but that doesn't make them human, does it? For all any of us knows, a "soul" may only enter a body when that body leaves the uterus. Since we don't know, leave it up to the pregnant woman to decide!

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Jana:

    You have a right to your beliefs and do not worry about a man/woman/government telling weather or not it's all right to murder your own unborn child. You need not worry about the judgement of any of these.

    But I would worry forever about whose judgement You will have to face. And unless I have read His book wrong, He has said it's a no, no.. And yes, He does have the right to "tell" you and judge you.

    Chip:hammer:
    Then it's between a pregnant woman and her God, so stay out of it.

  15. #140
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    Does anyone who would murder a child, born or unborn thiers or anothers have a God?

  16. #141
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    One question I'd like to ask of the "let the woman decide" side of this debate...

    If I understand the argument, women have a choice whether to become parents- but not men. This is because the baby- although it carries the characteristics of both parties- happens to be solely supported by the mother for the first 9 months of its life.

    The weakness in this position seems to be in the inequality of it all. If a man objects to becoming a parent, the woman can ignore the objection and carry the child to term- and then sue for support. It would seem to me that- in this "let the woman determine whether its a child or a zygote" mentality- the man should also be able to express his "choice" by signing a statement that he does not wish to become a father any time prior to the child's birth. From that moment on, he is absolved from any responsibility for the child.

    After all, the argument is that the woman has no particular "contract" with the child that precludes her from ending its life- even though the behavior which resulted in the child may have been completely voluntary in nature. Given the call for "equal rights" and all that, I would think men should have the same opportunity to choose whether they wish to be "inconvenienced" with a child. Why is it that a man is 100% committed to being a parent at conception, but a woman is not?

    I'm not buying the medical argument either... As many times as I hear the "its my body" mantra, what it most often boils down to is convenience- elective abortion isn't one of the healthier things you can do to your body. Once a baby is born, there are laws which state that no legal action can be taken against a mother who wishes to give up responsibility for the child. So, it becomes more an argument of "its my life." For the man, I would think it would be stated as an "its my wallet" argument (that's a crass way of putting it, but that's the same rationale taken by the woman who would rather finish college, get back to a career, etc.).

    Note, I continue to believe both the man and woman are obligated once a pregnancy occurs, but thought I'd take on the "man/woman" dimension of the argument.

    Regarding moral laws...
    Luckily, I included the all-important "most" clause.
    Ah, I see- you could do without the "morality" laws with which you don't agree- but believe everyone else should have to live by the morality laws with which you do agree. Wow, that's pretty convenient.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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  17. #142
    Is it November yet? Jana Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    Does anyone who would murder a child, born or unborn thiers or anothers have a God?
    This is simple..... I don't agree that it's murder.
    Jana Lewis
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  18. #143
    Is it November yet? Jana Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    I believe that's sexist. These rights should extend to any man who gets pregnant!
    Agreed spexvet.....

    I guess I didn't make myself clear....

    What I don't understand is Men who prostest in front of clinics, protesting abortion! They have NO IDEA what my position is ( as a man) anyway...

    I do believe that Men should be actively involved in any aspects of "their" pregnancy... after all it takes two.

    Sorry for the mis-communication. I am not as eloquent as some of you guys! ;)
    Jana Lewis
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  19. #144
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    Regarding moral laws...
    Luckily, I included the all-important "most" clause.
    Ah, I see- you could do without the "morality" laws with which you don't agree- but believe everyone else should have to live by the morality laws with which you do agree. Wow, that's pretty convenient.
    Pete,

    Sarcasm noted.

    Isn't that what we all do? You would like laws prohibiting the choice of abortion, and probably laws prohibiting the use of federal taxes for local use. But I'm guessing that you would not want laws limiting gun posession or legalizing same sex marriage. I think I already illustrated in post #134 that conservatives do this "all the time".

    But, more specifically, when I refer to moral laws, I refer more to "vice" laws. Where consenting, informed adults are involved and no one is injured or exploited.

  20. #145
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jana Lewis
    Agreed spexvet.....

    I guess I didn't make myself clear....

    What I don't understand is Men who prostest in front of clinics, protesting abortion! They have NO IDEA what my position is ( as a man) anyway...

    I do believe that Men should be actively involved in any aspects of "their" pregnancy... after all it takes two.

    Sorry for the mis-communication. I am not as eloquent as some of you guys! ;)
    Actually, I was attempting a little levity.:bbg:

  21. #146
    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Pete,

    I wasn't speaking about an individual instance in which a man and woman decide whether or not to have an abortion. I was speaking of the general case, that is, whether abortion should be prohibited or not, and if it should, under what circumstances. If women were to decide that it should be prohibited (which I don't believe they would do), well, that would be that. Perhaps if the Congress and the legislatures were composed of roughly equal parts men and women, I'd feel differently. As it is, any prohibition would, as a matter of fact, be dictated by men.

    I certainly did not assert that a woman has no duty to (though, it's certainly not a "contract" with) her unborn child. Neither does Roe v. Wade, which, if you would read it, you might be struck by the way the court struggled to balance the competing rights and duties involved.

    The "health of the mother" exception provides a baseline of sorts - no court will rule that a woman must sacrifice her health in favor of her unborn child. That would be to invert the current (and traditional) state of the law that provides no rights to the unborn; that would mean that the only rights that matter are those of the unborn, and the woman would have none.

    And regarding "moral laws", only those moral imperatives on which there is broad agreement (or perhaps, broad acquiescence to the beliefs of an intense minority) find expression in the law in any case; convenience doesn't have much to do with it. The "rights of the unborn" are mostly disagreed about, which is a principal reason why they're not recognized. At least, not yet.

  22. #147
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Sarcasm noted.
    ;) Sarcasm is, at times, my favorite form of communication.

    You are correct- most people tend to favor their own brand of "morality." I think some call this existentialism- which is one of the most misguided philosophies of all time (in my opinion). In the case of abortion, I believe secular humanism also plays a large role.

    Given that expression of morality is found in the laws of a society, morality quickly becomes a political issue.

    As for laws prohibiting abortion, to be honest I am rather ambivalent regarding a politician's stand on abortion. I find it unlikely that Roe v. Wade is going to be overturned anytime in the foreseeable future, and- since I believe it quite probable that the majority of the population desires legalized abortion- its probably best that abortion remain legal (well, unless you're an unborn baby- sarcasm again).

    Being as consistent as possible, I don't even vigorously oppose partial birth abortions. A child is a child, so an abortion at 2 months is no different than abortion at 8.5 months. It makes everyone more squemish to see that a late-term aborted baby is so completely formed, but either way, the child is terminated. If the country is accepting abortion as an agreeable form of birth-control, we should be honest enough with ourselves to recognize what it is... that is, the termination of a unique human being.

    As for Roe v. Wade itself, I have read parts of it, and I can see where being a Supreme Court Justice may not be such a pleasant occupation. I continue to disagree with the decision, but this is based on a belief that an unborn child is a child. Aborting a child is fundamentally not the same as electing to have a tumor removed. The child is not part of the female body. No integral part of your body leaves you after growing for 9 months.

    As for stem cell research (a topic which I'm suprised hasn't arisen), why the heck not? As long as society has decided to terminate babies, it seems there should be some benefit to the rest of us (resigned sarcasm).

    Finally, as for judging those who have and will have abortions- how presumptuous! I refer anyone who feels the moral authority to cast such judgements to Romans chapter 2. I'm not saying abortion isn't wrong, but I am suggesting that we are all guilty of so many things that condemning others should be the last of our concerns. Perhaps if I ever reach a point where I've conquered my own shortcomings, I'll find time to dwell on those of others (given the nature of progressive sanctification, I'll be gone from this world before that day dawns).

    Abortion is wrong for me. Personally and religiously, I also think it is wrong in general. Civically speaking, I believe it is wrong for our country. However, I'm convinced most people in my country favor abortion (or at least the availability of it). That doesn't make me happy, but that's the society in which I live. Perhaps abortion isn't "wrong" for someone else. To be honest, I don't envy anyone who chooses to have an abortion. I have a hard time believing anyone considers it a positive choice. I can only assume that it is a decision that is reached out of fear, desperation, or despair- so anyone who has been forced to make such a decision should receive my sympathy, not my condemnation.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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  23. #148
    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin
    Abortion is wrong for me. Personally and religiously, I also think it is wrong in general. Civically speaking, I believe it is wrong for our country. However, I'm convinced most people in my country favor abortion (or at least the availability of it). That doesn't make me happy, but that's the society in which I live. Perhaps abortion isn't "wrong" for someone else. To be honest, I don't envy anyone who chooses to have an abortion. I have a hard time believing anyone considers it a positive choice. I can only assume that it is a decision that is reached out of fear, desperation, or despair- so anyone who has been forced to make such a decision should receive my sympathy, not my condemnation.
    Well put, and incredibly liberal of you!:cheers:

  24. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Jana Lewis
    This is simple..... I don't agree that it's murder.
    Can you prove that the unborn is not alive? And if so what percent are you sure? 99%?

  25. #150
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    It's heartening to see that many of the OBers recognize this is a complex and perplexing issue. For myself, I think abortion is a serious sin, but I have real difficulty imposing my personal values on others, especially in a case where the alternatives can be mighty grim. I do feel strongly that not providing info on reproduction and exclusively preaching the virtues of abstinence is a horrible idea--is abortion a better form of birth control than the pill or condom, because that's what this approach eventually leads to. Ideally, all efforts, including encouraging abstinence, should concentrate on making young people aware of the consequences of sexual activity. If people spent more time and resources on this as opposed to flapping their gums about pro-life/pro-choice, we would all be better off.

    (There is one thing that intrigues me. Were Roe v Wade overturned, and abortion prohibition was made the law of the land, and a woman had an illegal abortion, who would be prosecuted? The woman or the doctor, and possibly her husband?)

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