Was I a BAD optical customer?

[Ralph]

I purchased a reasonably inexpensive pair of high-index reading lenses ($119) (using my own frame) to augment my progressives. These were purchased from a small (3 store) chain.

When I purchased them I questioned the "add on" fees of $10 each for "UV coating" and "Anti-Scratch" protection, asking "aren't high-index lenses manufactured with these coatings already? The clerk had already consulted with her co-worker many times in the process, and she then got a "no" from her on my question.

Being a nice customer, I said, go ahead with them. So the $99 lenses were now $119.

When I picked up the glasses that were made, I asked the gentlemen (who seemed experienced in the field and who seemed to be the eyeglass "technician" possibly), THE SAME QUESTION.

He looked at me like I had THREE EYES- "Well, they are only made with 92 or 93% UV protection, we add the rest to make it complete!" When I doubted the explanation, I asked him WHO MAKES THESE LENSES or WHAT BRAND ARE THEY?

Now he got crazy. "The trouble is with the internet, everybody knows TOO MUCH INFORMATION, and it doesn't apply to every situation". We have our own factory, and thats the way we do it."

My answer was, "I am in the education field, and I'm amazed to know that you DON"T want your customers to be informed, education is important for everyone!"

I didn't bother to ask about the scratch coating. I'll never go back there.

Am I right, isn't UV and Scratch included in the manufacture of high-index?

Why are MOST eyeglass dispensers SO CLOSED-LIPPED about lenses and any technical information. I thought my progressives were VARILUX, until I read the markings on them only to find that they were AO Compact 16's! The internet educated me. Are the stores afraid they may not be able to pull the wool over people's eyes so easily if they are informed?

[Jedi]

Ralph
I wish all my patients understood and cared about their eyes like that.
Ok for starters, *most* high index lenses should come with an Anti-reflection coating (ARC) and hard coat (scratch resistance), in our offices we base our prices to include ARC. In order to have an AR coating adhere to a lens a hardcoat must be applied underneath. So the upgrade to a scratch resistant coating in a AR coated lens is BS. Now in your post you did not specify whether of not you did recieve a AR coating. Even on a non-AR coated lens I feel that it is irresponsible not to include a hardcoat in your pricing, I would even guess that if you didn't "upgrade" the hardcoat you would have the same lens as the "upgraded" one. High-index is way to soft for there not to be a hard-coat applied.

Now for the UV part.
UV proctection varies depending on the material used and in some cases the brand used. Polycarbonate is UV 400, which means you are 100% protected up to 400nm (nano-meters) (the top of the range)or the lenses completely protect you from UVA and UVB (UVC is blocked by the atmosphere). For arguements sake I will use Nikon's UV protection (since I am most famililar with it). CR-39 1.5 index (standard plastic) is UV360, their 1.56 index DX-2 is also UV360. The "new" 1.6 index Nikon 3 is UV400 as well as the Nikon 4 1.67 index. Nikon 5 1.74 index is UV360. I believe in the near future all Nikon lenses will be UV400. I will try to find stat from other vendors but I would imagine it is very similar.

Ralph, to kind of some things up, I think they got you for $20. I would be willing to wager that if two sets of lenses were purchased, 1 with the "upgrade" and 1 without, they would have the same scratch resistant and UV protection as each other. You're doing the right thing by never going back, if a vendor cannot honestly tell you what treatments are on the lens who makes them and what type they are, the should have no business being professionals.

Jarratt

[chip anderson]

Jedi:

Other than Hoya which you can't get without ARC, I am not a ware of high index lenses coming with ARC. Note customer asked about SRC, not ARC.

Most high index lenses come with scratch coat.

Other than the dispensary needing and extra $ 20.00, I don't know why one would need ultra-violet protection on a pair of reading glasses (although I know some prescribes who put this on Rx if they own their own dispensary.)

Can't really see why patient should be required to get high index lenses for a pair of reading glasses (lenses are usually small and powers are low usually resulting in a rather thin lens in low index materials) unless customer requested same.

Customer: Yes, UV and scratch is usually included (you can't purchase high-index lenses without same usually). While reading glasses could be up to one half thinner in high index as stated they are usually small and thin and worn for short periods. Unless you asked for this, I think you got lead down the garden path. Quite legal and common but not the highest ethics in the world. If standard thickness lenses were used, can't really see why you would need an "extra 8%) UV protection or any at all as the amount of UV inside is negligible even under UV lighting.

I am afraid that many opticians don't understand that: "Every day is judgement day."

Chip

[karen]

Jedi:

Other than Hoya which you can't get without ARC, I am not a ware of high index lenses coming with ARC. Note customer asked about SRC, not ARC.

Chip

Chip, I think outside fo the US alot of countries (especially European ones) tend to bundle AR into their pricing. Outside of the US the AR percentages are MUCH higher and I think this has a lot to do with it.

Ralph, someone here can probably give you a recommendation on where to go next time around.

[Jedi]

Jedi:

Other than Hoya which you can't get without ARC, I am not a ware of high index lenses coming with ARC. Note customer asked about SRC, not ARC.

Many finished hi-index lenses (such as Nikon) come complete with factory ARC. Unless the patient requires a surfaced lens we will predominately use finished AR coated lenses and include ARC in the price. I don't think I've dispensed a clear Hi-index lens without ARC in a few years. I also posted the fact that he did not specify whether or not ARC was applied.

Can't really see why patient should be required to get high index lenses for a pair of reading glasses (lenses are usually small and powers are low usually resulting in a rather thin lens in low index materials) unless customer requested same.

I don't agree with that at all. If a patient is a -9.00 OU with a +1.50 add, would CR-39 be the material of choice for a -7.50 "reading" glass, I don't think so.

Jarratt

[Texas Ranger]

Ralph, you said that you were getting the reading only lenses to augment your PAL regular lenses, so we shouldn't "assume" that we are dealing with a "stock range" finished single vision lens, should we? there are sometimes, quite often in fact that an rx single vision lens for reading only may have to be surfaced to grind the rx and to control the thickness, especially if it is an rx power that would justify the use of hi-index lenses. in that case a scratch guard would have to be applied to the back surface, we do this frequently with TD2. high index lenses to NOT normally "come with" ARC, at least not in Texas...Chip is right though, not much need for UV protection in a reader, but ARC would have been recommended here, since it enhances the clarity of the vision, and we use Crizal Ar process that we scratch warranty for 2 yrs...Now, what would bother me is the switch out they did on the pal design, you should get what you paid for...if you got high index lenses with src and uv, I think you did it at a fair price, no matter how they broke it down, we get $90 for cr-39...you might seriously want to give the shop some feedback, instead of just "never going back". the owner of the shop needs to know what they're doing wrong so that they can work to correct these problems, and prevent the next pt from having such a problem...beginning with the lack of training of the first person who helped you, they should be trained well enough to not have to consult with others several times during the fitting process...

[Jedi]

*most* high index lenses should come with an Anti-reflection coating (ARC) and hard coat (scratch resistance), in our offices we base our prices to include ARC.

I hope my post didn't indicate that high index lenses DO come with ARC only they SHOULD, in my opinion. In most of the offices I know of ARC is already factored into the retail price of high index lenses.

Jarratt

[Pete Hanlin]

Unfortunately, you seem to have received incompetent service from your original dispenser and unfriendly (and perhaps incorrect) service from the second dispenser.

To echo what pretty much everyone else has said, SRC (scratch resistant coating) and UV are inherent to FSV high index products. That is, you cannot get a high index product without them (there are uncoated high index lenses, but they are not sold to consumers to my knowledge- they are specially supplied to laboratories who place a SRC on the lens as part of an integrated AR stack). I am surprised that your high index lenses didn't also come with AR. If they had, the extra sale of the SRC and UV is particularly inappropriate.

As to why an eye care practitioner wouldn't prefer educated patients, it may have something to do with the wool of which you speak- but it could also have something to do with the "half-informed" customers that are generated by the internet. Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous, and I've had patients who arrived at some pretty wild ideas about their eye care by briefly scanning the web.

Another "threat" of the internet is one that is shared across many retail industries. Namely, the internet is often capable of delivering goods without the overhead of service. These on-line vendors count on patients receiving the service free of charge (from a physical vendor who provides the service free based on a business model in which the consumer will then make a purchase). The result is you have eye care providers giving free or discounted services under the expectation of closing a material sale- only to see the sale go to an internet vendor who has no investment in the service end of the transaction. Since the eyecare field (like many others) hasn't yet figured out how to deal with this new business model, many of them simply react negatively to the internet out of frustration.

[For-Life]

However, guys, what happens is the lens dispensed was a specralite or 1.56?

Now I know that 1.56 comes with SRC where I get it from, but could you get it uncoated too? I know 1.56 is not considered high index, but many offices call it a high index.

[drk]

I'm going to take the unpopular stance of defending the opticians, to a degree.
$99 bucks is cheap for mid or high index. Itemizing out the SRC and UV for a very reasonable $20 is not exactly a good idea, but he still paid only $119 for mid or high index lenses. He got a good deal.

I can't defend their pricing policies, lack of straightforwardness, or defensiveness, however, and that alone would keep me from going back.

[Ralph]

Yes I did purchase BOTH the UV & Scratch Coating. I never got into the exact material of the lens at all with him. I believe this would be a "simple" reading glass Rx.(see below) I ASKED FOR the THINNER high-index lenses as I have a problem with weight on my nose. I wasn't unhappy about the price, as I said I just wanted some simple information.

By the way, to any of you in the field, I have found the most comfortable frames I have ever had in my 40+ years of eyeglass wearing - Calvin Klein CK535 - these with these AO Compact 16 progressives are THE BEST. OK, paid $638 total last year, but still worth it. I should have gone back to the person I bought them from, but I wanted to go somehere closer.

Re: my Rx: (only wanted reding portion for this)
D.V.
O.D. Sphere -4.50, Cyl -0.75, Axis 65
O.S. -4.50, -0.75, Axis 95

N.V.
O.D. & O.S. +2.00

Thanks again for your help: If any one knows a good optical dispenser in western to mid Nassau County Long Island, let me know.

any advice for a drill mount lens, same Rx in Transitions for the CK frames above 48/19/140. I was told that if I wanted to switch regularly between the AO's and a Varilux Panamic Transitions there would be an adjustment period because of a different curv. She said the AO's diddn't come in the short variety in Transitions, but wouldn't the Velocity 55's be very similar? I'd better stop reading the Progressive Lens Charts and OLA "Progressive lens identifier". I wish I could just find someone who can speak from knowledge of all possibilities available.

I promise I won't try to get these or any glasses on the internet. That's just a stupid idea, that won't make sense in the long run.

Thanks again everyone.

Ralph

[CME4SPECS]

Ralph, I was wondering how a consumer could identify a PAL by the engravings. I am curious where on the internet you found the PAL Identifier. I'd sure like the link if you can provide it. You seem to be very knowledgable about eyewear and obviously you have done a little more research than the average consumer. I wonder how you could have missed the fact that hi index lenses are SRC and UV absorbing. Terry Agin

[chip anderson]

I'm willing to bet the fellow is talking about an pair of readers here with +2.25 or less and low cylinder. $66 with no bells and whistles should have sufficed for the lenses.

Get real, I'll bet you have never sold anyone a -7.50 or above lenses for "near only."

Chip

[Jedi]

Get real, I'll bet you have never sold anyone a -7.50 or above lenses for "near only."

Having worked in downtown Calgary for the last 5 years, where we are surrounded by office buildings, I have dispensed a number of high powered single vision reading glasses. I don't understand your disbelief. I'm sure that you have provided readers for high myopes to wear over contacts, I fail to understand how providing or at least offering hi index reading glasses to these patients is a foreign thought to you.

Cheers,
Jarratt

[chip anderson]

The readers for high myopes to use over contacts were all under +3.00 and none required high index, anti-reflective coating, or ultra-violet coating.


Chip

[stephanie]

If you want to come to Memphis I will be happy to wait on you Ralph. I work right down the street from Graceland. UV and Scratch coat included!



Steph

[For-Life]

The readers for high myopes to use over contacts were all under +3.00 and none required high index, anti-reflective coating, or ultra-violet coating.


Chip

I use a 1.56 lens for all of my readers. The reasoning is I do not like the stock lenses available in cr-39 for them, and there is really no price difference. Of course that lens has a scratch coat.

[Jedi]

The readers for high myopes to use over contacts were all under +3.00 and none required high index, anti-reflective coating, or ultra-violet coating.
Chip

I don't disagree with you regarding low power readers and hi-index lenses.
I was thinking faster than I was typing.
My post should have read:

I'm sure that you have provided readers for high myopes to wear over contacts, I fail to understand how providing or at least offering hi index reading glasses, when they are not wearing contacts, to these patients is a foreign thought to you.

A high power should have a high index lens recommended whether it is required for reading or distance.

[chip anderson]

I guess my point was when we are making readers of low powers, those of us who are opticians would not talk the patient into a lot of bells and whistles which would be of no benefit to the patient. Those of us who are in sales would do everything possible to run up the price with all sorts of things we felt that the patient "needed."

Of course, if I were making reading or any other spectacle of high powers I would have the patient consider thinner materials. However if the glasses were "just to wear in the bedroom" before and after removing contacts I would ask the patient a if they wanted to save a buck or two with more standard materials. Why? Because people see better in corrected curve lenses! The expense is less. The lenses won't be worn long enough for weight to be a problem. And in some cases no one will see the patient with the glasses.

Now if the glasses are "Back up" and may occasionally be worn outside the home or specialized work environment, thinner materials are suggested.

Chip

[Jedi]

I guess my point was when we are making readers of low powers, those of us who are opticians would not talk the patient into a lot of bells and whistles which would be of no benefit to the patient. Those of us who are in sales would do everything possible to run up the price with all sorts of things we felt that the patient "needed."

Of course, if I were making reading or any other spectacle of high powers I would have the patient consider thinner materials. However if the glasses were "just to wear in the bedroom" before and after removing contacts I would ask the patient a if they wanted to save a buck or two with more standard materials. Why? Because people see better in corrected curve lenses! The expense is less. The lenses won't be worn long enough for weight to be a problem. And in some cases no one will see the patient with the glasses.

Now if the glasses are "Back up" and may occasionally be worn outside the home or specialized work environment, thinner materials are suggested.

Chip

I'll drink to that
:cheers:
Jarratt

[Eddie G's]

I just switched from Reg. Plastic to Polycarb Aspheric's for ALL my readers!
The lenses look amazing!!!
That way if our patient's go elsewhere they'll notice a difference in lens thickness/weight and they'll come back.

It's only a few bucks more for these lenses but worth it in my opinion.

I'm using the stock Fisher Price AS 68's and now trying the Airwear AS 65's.

:cheers: