Ok, I've got my boxing gloves on...

[karen]

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR GEORGE W. BUSH OR JOHN KERRY GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

My Fellow Americans:
As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed. Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.

This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq.* This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning.

Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there.

The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the worlds nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.

Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.

The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.

Need help with a famine?* Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France.

In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home.
On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize?* Try France, or maybe China.

To Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Yo, boys. Work out a peace deal now. Just note that Camp David is closed. Maybe all of you can go to Russia for negotiations. They have some great palaces there. Big tables, too. I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.
I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers, and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.

A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2.
President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em?* Yep, border security.
So start doing something with your oil.
Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty ---
starting now.

We are tired of the one-way highway.

It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens.
Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them be saying, "darn tootin."

Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America. It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America.
To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget. To the nations on List 2, a final thought. Drop dead.

God bless America.
Thank you and good night.

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

[For-Life]

A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2.
President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em?* Yep, border security.
So start doing something with your oil.
Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty ---
starting now.

I for one am extremely proud of my nation and of my government for standing up the US and saying that we will not fight in a war that we do not believe in, that we will not bend over and do what ever the US government tells us to do even if we believe it is wrong, and that my friends who are in the Canadian military were not forced to risk their lives for a cause that we do not believe in.

God Bless Sovereignty

[Spexvet]

well, while I agree with some of it, parts will make life worse for us. Imagine all the countries on list 2 ganging up on us. Eventually, we will run out of nukes, right Chip?;) The aggragate fallout may make mutations out of all of us. And do you really think that Canada is our enemy because they actually thought for themselves and dared to diasagree with W. (yet agree with about half of the American citizenry)? And who's going to buy our goods and services? And those third world "hell holes" you refer to - they're an awful lot like Iraq (an action you support) and they are filled with God's children.

[mrba]

Imagine all the countries on list 2 ganging up on us.

We'll just have to make the sausage and crossants in house.

[mrba]

Karen,

To reverse the neurosis in this place, one requires a base ball bat, not gloves.

[karen]

w And do you really think that Canada is our enemy because they actually thought for themselves and dared to diasagree with W. (yet agree with about half of the American citizenry)? And who's going to buy our goods and services? And those third world "hell holes" you refer to - they're an awful lot like Iraq (an action you support) and they are filled with God's children.

Now remember, I didn't write it- I just liked most of what it said. Canada should be able to do whatever it wants (they did and do !) and in all honesty if I had thought about the Canadians that post here regularly before I let my emotions get the best of me I would have at least put the I did not write this disclaimer first. For-Life is proud of his country and I am proud of mine, something we both get to talk about out loud because of where we live. If you want to get technical, Iraq is filled with the children of Abram's affair with his wife's handmaiden Hagar and I think they would prefer to be called the children of Allah. If you read my past posts I supported the initial Iraq "invasion" but have thought for some time that we need to get the heck out of there-I'm tired of the increasing body count and I don't think we can solve their problems-don't think they want them solved and especially not by us (just ask the Iraqi soccer team-did you hear about the article in Sports Illustrated?)

[fvc2020]

Karen


I thought the letter or speech was great;) I think we as a country do more than necessary for the entire world and then they(the world)p--ps on us.

I don't think anyone has the guts to attack us though(those on list), because even if we decide not to fund them through the government we as a people like to spend our money in those country(because we can)and enjoy the products they provide. I don't think France, Germany, and China would like to mess with the almighty dollar provided by the citizens of this country.

By the way Karen, thought your subject was great:D

Just a thought.

Christina

[chm2023]

The difference of course being this is not high school where blustering and bullying is a good strategy. Of course in lieu of no strategy it has some appeal I guess.

This is actually rather comical. The nations who did not support us turned out to be, oh what's the word, RIGHT. No WMD, no collaboration with AQ. Which of course, really pisses the administration off!!! "Not only are you French and know stuff about wine and can speak more than one language and have a rich, rich culture, but turns out you called this right!!! Only one thing to do, stick to our story and blame you!"

[mrba]

This is actually rather comical. The nations who did not support us turned out to be, oh what's the word, RIGHT. No WMD, no collaboration with AQ. Which of course, really pisses the administration off!!! "Not only are you French and know stuff about wine and can speak more than one language and have a rich, rich culture, but turns out you called this right!!! Only one thing to do, stick to our story and blame you!"

What a terrible country we live in. It should be abolished immediatly!

As far as sophisticated french wine knowledge, I welcome them to Sonoma.

[Spexvet]

What a terrible country we live in. It should be abolished immediatly!

As far as sophisticated french wine knowledge, I welcome them to Sonoma.

So we're perfect? No room for improvement?

[mrba]

Only one thing to do, stick to our story and blame you!"

It would seem no room at all.

[Shutterbug]

"I thought the letter or speech was great;) I think we as a country do more than necessary for the entire world and then they(the world)p--ps on us. "

I think it's OK to say poops here

[mrba]

Why is it we owe so much to the world? Is it because we have so much? Why do we have so much anyway? Could it be we worked for it, behaved ourselves, and had a good plan?


Hence, it is a good thing to help the rest of the world, but is it our obligation? And if so, who obligates us?

[Spexvet]

Why is it we owe so much to the world? Is it because we have so much? Why do we have so much anyway? Could it be we worked for it, behaved ourselves, and had a good plan?


Hence, it is a good thing to help the rest of the world, but is it our obligation? And if so, who obligates us?

No one makes us give, we don't owe anyone or have an obligation. But isn't it great that we have so much? Isn't it great that we give of our own free will? Isn't it a shame that in Thailand, people work as hard as we do, and yet still exist in abject poverty? Aren't we wonderful, that we aren't selfish and greedy, and we are able to give? Thank God we're this fortunate!

[chm2023]

What a terrible country we live in. It should be abolished immediatly!

As far as sophisticated french wine knowledge, I welcome them to Sonoma.

Oh I forgot it's either we are always right or we are a terrible country. How nice to live in a place where no subtleties are required. My brain refuses to operate that way, pity.

The whole tone of the initial post K quoted is sophomoric; that injured party, wise ***, cutesy approach is frankly nauseating to anyone who takes the world seriously.

[Pete Hanlin]

Neither we, Canada, the French, nor anyone else are always right or always wrong. In fact, I suspect we are often all partially "right" and partially "wrong" to some degree (interesting that an appeal to an action's correctness implies there is an authoritative "right," however...)

I think the whole concept of countries being "in support" of other countries is a bit of a stretch. Sovereign nations, as For-Life succinctly suggests- should do whatever is in their best interest. If it is not in the interest of Canada, France, Germany, etc. to invade Iraq, they shouldn't be made to feel guilty, or "wrong" for not supporting such an action.

At the same time, I believe invading Iraq was an action carried out in the best interest of the United States of America (understanding there are Americans who disagree with this assessment), so I'm not going to lose very much sleep over the fact that other nations disagree with our actions- since we are a sovereign nation as well.

Regarding the lend of support to other nations, part of charity is giving without expectation of return. Expecting other countries to reciprocate support to the US is unrealistic- given that there are currently no other countries in the world on an economic/military par with the US (i.e., they have neither the same resources to spend nor do they have the same interests/benefits/goals). This is not meant in a bragging way- its simply a fact of our current historical situation. One day- before too long- the Chinese will be the sole great power of the world and they will have the opportunity to bear the burden of being the world's "superpower." The rest of the world will then benefit or fare ill based on the expression of that country's national will... History has graced the world with various superpowers throughout history- Greecians, Romans, Germanics, Spanish, French, British- each had their good points and bad points.

Which brings us back to the biggest mistake made by this admin. We should have made our initial proposal- the invasion of Iraq- to the UN, accepted the fact that they "disagreed" with our intended course, and then politely thanked them for their input and simply went on in by ourselves (rather than trying to "convince" or "force" other countries to support our action- support which was strategically unimportant anyway).

[karen]

The whole tone of the initial post K quoted is sophomoric; that injured party, wise ***, cutesy approach is frankly nauseating to anyone who takes the world seriously.

Well, it was sort of a joke... I mean there were some underlying truths that peeked out at me but it's not like it would ever really happen. I thought we had all had enough of taking the world seriously (see: Was Jesus a Liberal?) Guess that makes me an 10th grade suicide bomber ;)

[Pete Hanlin]

This is actually rather comical. The nations who did not support us turned out to be, oh what's the word, RIGHT.
In Karen's defense (not that she needs it), I thought this observation was a bit "cutsey" as well. Talk about sophomoric and over simplistic...

Look, if you want to make the lack of WMDs a political tagline that's fine (and why not, its always great political play to armchair quarterback a policy from the relative safety of non-accountability and hindsight). Facts are, however, both Republicans AND Democrats saw Iraq as a credible threat, the regime there was doing neither the US nor Iraqis any good, Iraq was in material violation of the cease fire agreement which ended hostilities in the first place- hostilities which came about after Iraq invaded Kuwait, and some of the noble countries you seem so fond of had many less-than-objective reasons for objecting to an invasion.

[mrba]

Oh I forgot it's either we are always right or we are a terrible country. How nice to live in a place where no subtleties are required. My brain refuses to operate that way, pity.

Since you forgot something and then proceeded to state it, commenting on your brain's function would be commenting on the obvious.

Criticism of our country and president is so intense these days, I fail to see how anyone can find anything right with our country. That was the jist of my sarcasm.

Why is it that there are some that just can't accept that Iraq is better now than 1 year ago? Oh I got it, becaue the reason for making it better was in the end in error.

If we could always be so lucky.

[Spexvet]

Neither we, Canada, the French, nor anyone else are always right or always wrong. In fact, I suspect we are often all partially "right" and partially "wrong" to some degree (interesting that an appeal to an action's correctness implies there is an authoritative "right," however...)

I think the whole concept of countries being "in support" of other countries is a bit of a stretch. Sovereign nations, as For-Life succinctly suggests- should do whatever is in their best interest. If it is not in the interest of Canada, France, Germany, etc. to invade Iraq, they shouldn't be made to feel guilty, or "wrong" for not supporting such an action.

At the same time, I believe invading Iraq was an action carried out in the best interest of the United States of America (understanding there are Americans who disagree with this assessment), so I'm not going to lose very much sleep over the fact that other nations disagree with our actions- since we are a sovereign nation as well.

Regarding the lend of support to other nations, part of charity is giving without expectation of return. Expecting other countries to reciprocate support to the US is unrealistic- given that there are currently no other countries in the world on an economic/military par with the US (i.e., they have neither the same resources to spend nor do they have the same interests/benefits/goals). This is not meant in a bragging way- its simply a fact of our current historical situation. One day- before too long- the Chinese will be the sole great power of the world and they will have the opportunity to bear the burden of being the world's "superpower." The rest of the world will then benefit or fare ill based on the expression of that country's national will... History has graced the world with various superpowers throughout history- Greecians, Romans, Germanics, Spanish, French, British- each had their good points and bad points.

Which brings us back to the biggest mistake made by this admin. We should have made our initial proposal- the invasion of Iraq- to the UN, accepted the fact that they "disagreed" with our intended course, and then politely thanked them for their input and simply went on in by ourselves (rather than trying to "convince" or "force" other countries to support our action- support which was strategically unimportant anyway).

I think it's unfortunate that countries do "whatever is in their best interest", and don't take into consideration the wants and needs of others. Taking that attitude just a little too far - let's get rid of our waste (toxic, radioactive, refuse from last night's dinner) by dumping it all into Mexico. That would be in our best interest, and support from other countries would be unimportant.

Sovereign nations, as For-Life succinctly suggests- should do whatever is in their best interest

Does this mean that you feel Nazi Germany was justified in doing what they did? After all I'm sure they felt it was in their best interest.

I don't have a great liking or respect for many of the countries you list above, but I think that the esteem of the rest of the world effects how well we can achieve that which is in our best interest. I believe that a win/win solution is better than The US always getting our way, and everyone else getting the highway.

As you said, China is likely to be the next superpower. How we treat them, and the rest of the world NOW may very well influence how we are treated then.

[chm2023]

Well, it was sort of a joke... I mean there were some underlying truths that peeked out at me but it's not like it would ever really happen. I thought we had all had enough of taking the world seriously (see: Was Jesus a Liberal?) Guess that makes me an 10th grade suicide bomber ;)

Karen, I hope I didn't offend you, I certainly did not mean to. I just think that that sort of jingoism, we're smarter and tougher and better than anyone else rant that you quoted (I certainly realized this was not your rant!) is counter-productive. It allows for no ability to change for the better, coz if we're already perfect, what's to change?

[chm2023]

This is actually rather comical. The nations who did not support us turned out to be, oh what's the word, RIGHT.
In Karen's defense (not that she needs it), I thought this observation was a bit "cutsey" as well. Talk about sophomoric and over simplistic...

Look, if you want to make the lack of WMDs a political tagline that's fine (and why not, its always great political play to armchair quarterback a policy from the relative safety of non-accountability and hindsight). Facts are, however, both Republicans AND Democrats saw Iraq as a credible threat, the regime there was doing neither the US nor Iraqis any good, Iraq was in material violation of the cease fire agreement which ended hostilities in the first place- hostilities which came about after Iraq invaded Kuwait, and some of the noble countries you seem so fond of had many less-than-objective reasons for objecting to an invasion.

Sorry Pete, if you have time, go back and review the chats we had about this before the war. There were a number of folks, including me, who saw the folly in this policy beforehand. Bush et al now prefer to say we all saw this was the only course. Wrong.

And yes I am fond of France. Because I have spent a great deal of time there over the years and find it a beautiful, civilized culture. I can remember a time when leaders could disagree--deGaulle makes Chirac look like a lap dog--without people going nuts. I mean really, freedom fries? Let's try to act like grownups.

[chm2023]

Since you forgot something and then proceeded to state it, commenting on your brain's function would be commenting on the obvious.

Criticism of our country and president is so intense these days, I fail to see how anyone can find anything right with our country. That was the jist of my sarcasm.

Why is it that there are some that just can't accept that Iraq is better now than 1 year ago? Oh I got it, becaue the reason for making it better was in the end in error.

If we could always be so lucky.

I don't understand most of this, but as to the last thought, I frankly don't give a s*** if Iraq is better off now. I am concerned that we are less safe and less solvent.

[mrba]

I don't understand most of this, but as to the last thought, I frankly don't give a s*** if Iraq is better off now. I am concerned that we are less safe and less solvent.

Ah yes the american mantra... "Me Me Me"... Perhaps the real reason why "The rest of the world hates us."

Never mind, I was just channeling Jimmy Carter.

[chm2023]

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/000469.html

And keep in mind, these are the same guys who can't get through a meal without talking about the glories of democracy.