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Thread: Look at Iraq war this way

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Look at Iraq war this way

    Imagine:

    One morning, you kiss your family goodbye, and walk out the door. Your neighbor, Bill, approaches you and tells you that he saw another neighbor, Frank, (who people call "the wife beater") sitting on his porch, with an assault weapon in his lap. Even though you didn't see any weapon, you walk up to Frank and tell him that he must get rid of his weapon or you will throw him out of his house and/or kill him. He tells you that he doesn't have a gun. You then report Frank to the police. The police come and try to find the assault weapon, but there is no sign of it. But you are sure that Frank is a madman and must have the weapon in his house. You go door to door through your neighborhood and try to convince others to join you in confronting Frank. You tell them that Frank's family is suffering due to Frank's behavior, and the neighborhood as a whole should help them. Some neighbors agree to support you, others don't. You take the neighbors who are willing and storm Frank's house, throw rocks through his windows, kick down his doors. His family fights you. So, you have to defend yourselves by hurting them. You look and look for Frank, to turn him over to the police. Finally, you find him, and he is held in jail. Now, you collect money from your family, and start to rebuild Frank's house, with Frank's family throwing stones at you the whole time.

    This is what W did, on a global scale. IMO this behavior is unacceptable in a civilized society.

    The US in the greatest country in the world - not perfect, but the best there is. It's up to us to be the world leader. Our present administration does not lead other countries, they push them around.


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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    Walt, mrba, chip? Speechless???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Walt, mrba, chip? Speechless???
    For sure. Indubitably. YaYaYa. You bet. At the simplicity of your observations. Just one tiny random example...

    "with Frank's family throwing stones at you the whole time."

    i.e., With the members of Frank's family ( excluding wife) and distant relatives who were holding his wife down while Frank was beating her, tearing out her fingernails, holding down his daughters as Frank raped them, etc etc etc...

    throwing stones at you because Frank had not yet chopped off their hands, etc etc etc... throwing stones requires still having hands..

    If I had more time, it would be fun to parse your whole post. Maybe later. :bbg:

    Poor ol' Frank as the victim? I hope for your sanity that you don't really believe your analogy. Surely you jest.
    Last edited by walt; 07-25-2004 at 12:31 PM.

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    Or view it thus, my beamish boy...

    JABBERWOCKY

    Lewis Carroll

    (from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

    `Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.






    "Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
    The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
    Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
    The frumious Bandersnatch!"


    He took his vorpal sword in hand:
    Long time the manxome foe he sought --
    So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
    And stood awhile in thought.


    And, as in uffish thought he stood,
    The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
    Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
    And burbled as it came!


    One, two! One, two! And through and through
    The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head
    He went galumphing back.


    "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
    Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
    O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
    He chortled in his joy.


    `Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.


  5. #5
    OptiWizard
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    Klinghoffer Family Says Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Imagine:

    One morning, you kiss your family goodbye, and walk out the door. Your neighbor, Bill, approaches you and tells you that he saw another neighbor, Frank, (who people call "the wife beater") sitting on his porch, with an assault weapon in his lap. Even though you didn't see any weapon, you walk up to Frank and tell him that he must get rid of his weapon or you will throw him out of his house and/or kill him. He tells you that he doesn't have a gun. You then report Frank to the police. The police come and try to find the assault weapon, but there is no sign of it. But you are sure that Frank is a madman and must have the weapon in his house. You go door to door through your neighborhood and try to convince others to join you in confronting Frank. You tell them that Frank's family is suffering due to Frank's behavior, and the neighborhood as a whole should help them. Some neighbors agree to support you, others don't. You take the neighbors who are willing and storm Frank's house, throw rocks through his windows, kick down his doors. His family fights you. So, you have to defend yourselves by hurting them. You look and look for Frank, to turn him over to the police. Finally, you find him, and he is held in jail. Now, you collect money from your family, and start to rebuild Frank's house, with Frank's family throwing stones at you the whole time.

    This is what W did, on a global scale. IMO this behavior is unacceptable in a civilized society.

    The US in the greatest country in the world - not perfect, but the best there is. It's up to us to be the world leader. Our present administration does not lead other countries, they push them around.
    BULLETIN: Saddam's house guest Abu Abbas disrupted by mean-spirited, freedom-bashing, home-wrecking and all-around insensitive U.S.Special Forces... moderator to close thread....

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...bbas.arrested/
    Last edited by walt; 07-25-2004 at 12:19 PM.

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    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Frank, (who people call "the wife beater") sitting on his porch, with an assault weapon in his lap.
    There is no doubt that Frank had to go; perhaps the timing should have been a little better thought out:
    (Warning - if you follow the link below, there are a few graphic images.)
    http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet

    The US in the greatest country in the world - not perfect, but the best there is. It's up to us to be the world leader.
    Oh dear. Suddenly I feel all anti American.
    Nuff said.

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    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    This is what W did, on a global scale. IMO this behavior is unacceptable in a civilized society.
    Hello, Spexvet. I think your statement is way out of focus. W and the other members of the coalitions (Afghan, Iraq) are not taking military action within the agreeable boundaries of a (global) civilized society. They are sending the two coalitions' soldiers to what have long been two of the most singularly UNCIVILIZED parts of the world.

    What we need as much as anything else at present is significantly more direct military support from Germany and more especially France. Also some of the more proximate countries such as Jordan, Turkey and Egypt. I am under the impression that NATO has not even fulfilled its earlier pledges on Afghanistan and (thanks mostly to France) has not honored the most recent request for additional security forces from Afghan President Karzai.
    Last edited by rinselberg; 07-25-2004 at 05:59 PM.

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  9. #9
    I compare uncivilized W vs uncivilized Afganistan and Iraq.


    I must be a fool. I own a gun. Shoot me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    I compare uncivilized W vs uncivilized Afganistan and Iraq.


    I must be a fool. I own a gun. Shoot me.
    You know, I was afraid you owned gun. Should have known. I'll read about you in the paper, some day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo
    There is no doubt that Frank had to go; perhaps the timing should have been a little better thought out:
    (Warning - if you follow the link below, there are a few graphic images.)
    http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
    Maybe Frank did have to go. But is it up to you and your neighbors to do it? Don't we have laws in place to handle these situations? Just because the UN doesn't agree with us doesn't mean that we do it anyway. Remember how we acted when the USSR did this in Afghanistan? Now we are them! How does it feel? We used to be the good guys. Now we are the same as The USSR rolling tanks into Yugoslavia - we are the outlaws in the eyes of the countries of the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo
    There is no doubt that Frank had to go; perhaps the timing should have been a little better thought out:
    (Warning - if you follow the link below, there are a few graphic images.)
    http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
    (Warning - if you follow the link below, there are a few graphic images.)

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm
    http://www.nvccom.co.jp/abomb/indexe.html

    Looks like we did that kind of stuff, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rinselberg
    Hello, Spexvet. I think your statement is way out of focus. W and the other members of the coalitions (Afghan, Iraq) are not taking military action within the agreeable boundaries of a (global) civilized society. They are sending the two coalitions' soldiers to what have long been two of the most singularly UNCIVILIZED parts of the world.

    What we need as much as anything else at present is significantly more direct military support from Germany and more especially France. Also some of the more proximate countries such as Jordan, Turkey and Egypt. I am under the impression that NATO has not even fulfilled its earlier pledges on Afghanistan and (thanks mostly to France) has not honored the most recent request for additional security forces from Afghan President Karzai.
    So, since they act that way, it's ok if we act that way? I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right. I believe we should take the high road.

    Are we them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by walt
    For sure. Indubitably. YaYaYa. You bet. At the simplicity of your observations. Just one tiny random example...

    "with Frank's family throwing stones at you the whole time."

    i.e., With the members of Frank's family ( excluding wife) and distant relatives who were holding his wife down while Frank was beating her, tearing out her fingernails, holding down his daughters as Frank raped them, etc etc etc...

    throwing stones at you because Frank had not yet chopped off their hands, etc etc etc... throwing stones requires still having hands..

    If I had more time, it would be fun to parse your whole post. Maybe later. :bbg:


    Poor ol' Frank as the victim? I hope for your sanity that you don't really believe your analogy. Surely you jest.
    Walt ,

    The simplicity was so that you could understand. And yet, you didn't.

    The point was not about Frank's guilt or innocence. The point is that we have a process in this country and this world to resolve these conflicts, and those who don't follow the process are acting against civilization. Imagine someone firebombing your house because you played music too loud. They would be following W's lead! After all, he didn't have to follow any conventions we have with the rest of the world.

    Broad brush: Every conservative that I know has the inability to be objective. They cannot look at a situation and evaluate it as though they were not absolutely 100% right and everyone else is absolutely 100% wrong. I punched you, I'm wrong - you punch me, I'm wrong.

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    As I keep trying to point out: W is president of the United States, sworn to protect and uphold the Constitution and the citizens. He is not elected president of the world, the U.N. or any other soveriegn state, or sworn to protect the doctrines or citizens of any other state or country outside the U.S.


    Chip

    And just for the record the US never signed the Geneva Convention.

  16. #16
    And just for the record the US never signed the Geneva Convention.
    Chip is dishing out the shut up today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    As I keep trying to point out: W is president of the United States, sworn to protect and uphold the Constitution and the citizens. He is not elected president of the world, the U.N. or any other soveriegn state, or sworn to protect the doctrines or citizens of any other state or country outside the U.S.


    Chip

    And just for the record the US never signed the Geneva Convention.
    But don't you think we should do the right thing? We could go in and use nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, but we haven't. Why? Because so far, that's the line W won't cross. My line is closer. You don't attack a country unless you have some kind of acceptence from the world community. That's what being a member of society is all about. We call countries that behave that way "uncivilized".

    Are we them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    Chip is dishing out the shut up today.
    Read my post. I didn't specify Geneva Conventions. There are many ways of behavior (conventions) that we adhere to.

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    We do but: Eisenhower offered our A-Bomb to the French to save Ben den pu, We were disposed to use poison gas on the islands in the Pacific but out of deferment to the English we wasted as many as 40,000 troops a day to invade "impossible" fortified beaches. You can't immagine what Kennedy was prepared to do in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

    Don't kid yourselves if we ever face a real threat, one that could result in our defeat or distruction we will use every nasty thing we ever developed to preserve the Constitution and ourselves.

    Chip

    Civilized war, what other jokes do you know? We are the dominant power on this Earth because we know how to kill better not because we are better at diplomacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spexvet
    Looks like we did that kind of stuff, too.
    I do know that the end does not always justify the means; however, our actions were an attempt to stop two governments from world domination, Hussein did it to try to wipe out a culture.

  21. #21
    You don't attack a country unless you have some kind of acceptence from the world community. That's what being a member of society is all about. We call countries that behave that way "uncivilized".
    I don't remeber electing the world community or their opinion. Our votes were cast for our represenatives in our government to look after our interests.

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    Objection! OptiBoard Gold Supporter shanbaum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    And just for the record the US never signed the Geneva Convention.
    Where did you get that (mistaken) idea?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson
    We do but: Eisenhower offered our A-Bomb to the French to save Ben den pu, We were disposed to use poison gas on the islands in the Pacific but out of deferment to the English we wasted as many as 40,000 troops a day to invade "impossible" fortified beaches. You can't immagine what Kennedy was prepared to do in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

    Don't kid yourselves if we ever face a real threat, one that could result in our defeat or distruction we will use every nasty thing we ever developed to preserve the Constitution and ourselves.

    Chip

    Civilized war, what other jokes do you know? We are the dominant power on this Earth because we know how to kill better not because we are better at diplomacy.
    Then we are them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrba
    I don't remeber electing the world community or their opinion. Our votes were cast for our represenatives in our government to look after our interests.
    You also didn't elect a leader of your neighborhood. But would attack Frank??

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    in·teg·ri·ty [ n-tgr-t ]
    n.

    1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
    2. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
    3. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.
    http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/i/i0177000.html


    IMO this is about integrity. Either W is the type of person who would attack his neighbor, rather than go to the police or courts, or he lacks integrity, in that his principle for dealing with a local conflict is not the same as his principle for dealing with conflict on a global level. He does not show a "Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code" - he has two.

    The arguement is not who was right, stonger, evil, needed to be removed from power. The arguement is that our means were too similar to those we've pointed out as wrong or bad. I want our coutry to stop the hypocricy.

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