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North Carolinians, We are on the list to be immediately Delicensed! NC Gear. I KNOW we are all busy covering our stores, looking to the next day off, and that's all about to change. I bet half of us NCLDOs work for a big box that has contributes to McCorys proposal. What to do, move to SC, GA, FL? .....as soon as we do that, that state will deconstruct because of our lack of a Union.:giggle:
Yes, we need some more unions! Detroit could use some to help them out as well!
Unions have long-ago outlived their real value, and not what Opticians need. We need a formal structure to make us mean something. Licenses in every state, and a mandatory education to ever be relevant again. I am fairly comfortable we will be able to save the licensing law here in NC for a while, but the truth is Opticians need to do more than measure ODs and Seg Heights if we ever hope to remain independent.
You are correct, however. Elimination of licensing is coming if we do not improve. It matters not where you work, really. Pharmacists work at WalMart, and they do not call them to the grocery department in slow times. Why? They are viewed as professionals. Us? We are labor. Whose fault is that? Not WalMarts.........it is ours for making the path into the field so easy that it can be done by virtually anyone. We must improve by getting folks who are like minded, with the same education and training and then all of these silly arguments we are always involved in will go away. It will not matter what the "national" practical looks like, and that is but one example.
One final thing........this was not the Governor's proposal. It came from within the General Assembly, and was based upon a study funded by the Obama administration.
Think a step ahead - not behind. If it's happening you had better be ready for the future. Anticipate what will happen instead of bemoaning what is in the past. People in North Carolina will still need glasses - how will you make your practice attractive? It sucks, it's medically diluted, it isn't right - but it is a reality you have to cope with. Look forward, not behind. Such is optical in 2015. There is no crying in optical.
you have been preaching this for years, and your right!Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcdonald
Entry level wages will probably drop due to the suddenly vast hiring pool of unlicensed potential optical dispensers. Sales and administrative skillset will probably become the most important to employers (they can train anyone to dispense if they do not have to be tested). Sorry
Wages will probably increase with the impending $15.00 an hour minimum wage!Quote:
Originally Posted by tx11
You can drop the "probably".Quote:
Originally Posted by tx11
Your right you can train a drunk monkey to sell and dispense, but only an Optician can fix or diagnose a problem when it arises. Only an Optician can understand and explain why the patient sees the way they see out of their glasses. The Optician, regardless of licensure will not disappear, there will just be fewer of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by tx11
Obama is in support of de licensing. He figures walmarts and the like can employ 3 or 4 unskilled, unlicensed kids for what one optician makes.
They do have rights, but having a right to train a monkey? Now I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy
(emphasis mine)Quote:
Originally Posted by tx11
Isn't it interesting that the "Advanced" ABO exam focuses on those aspects as much as optics?
Hmmmm...
I partially agree, if the sale and dispense were correct, you wouldn't need me too fix or undo, the simple crap.
This may be true but here in Ohio the attack on Opticians and licensure is happening while the right, Republicans, hold the vast majority of the seats in the house, senate and well as the Governor’s office. The attack is supported by retail merchants they are the ones writing the checks to whomever is in office. I don’t think POTUS have anything to do with it. Who is in control in NC?Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed
Republicans now control NC for the first time in 100 years. But President Obama has pushed the idea of eliminating barriers to employment. The Timmons study was commissioned by the WH. What we all should keep in mind is that we have made ourselves an easy target. No cooperation between states regarding licensing requirements, CL fitting, and this ridiculous ongoing argument about whether or not we need an education, etc., all have finally caught up to us! If what we do is so simple we do not need an education and/or a license in this complex environment, then one must ask.......does the license do any more than elevate salaries? So the enemy is not coming from outside, but within. Those who have argued against education and licensing, and seem to want the market to control the field are getting ready to see it happen, then we will see how they like it.
Opticianry needs leadership, and not tomorrow.......I mean right now! NC is not the only state facing this issue, and if we fall.......we have one of the strongest licensing laws in America, others will fall as well. I do not want to see that, but again, if all we are going to do is measure PDs and take Seg Heights, why is a license necessary? Who are we protecting? In a CE seminar this past weekend, I asked the audience to answer very simple, basic questions that relate to what we should be able to do. An individual who could not answer them has no chance of being able to analyze an Rx (especially one of any complexity), and most there had no clue. Try them for a week or so, and if it isn't better go back and see the doctor is not troubleshooting, it is ignorance. We can fix that with appropriate education and training. What we can't fix is stupidity.....and it is time we wake up. I have fought this battle now for 30 years, and quite frankly we lasted longer than I thought we would, but unless we act to improve ourselves.......and right now, Opticianry as we know it in those states where it takes more than a pulse to call yourself an Optician, is done. I have been preaching this stuff for 30 years, and it is often a lonely path, but I believe I am right, and my research proves most agree with me. Think folks. Where do you want to see this field in the future? Do we want to cut our own path, or continue to let outside forces drive us? Or is it too late?
I am afraid that it is too late...................much too late!Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcdonald
Give me a motivated person, licensed or not, and I can train them to be great.
B
I think you are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fezz
Apples to apples, Barry. You are describing individual accomplishment, and while that is an admirable thing, this is a more collective issue. NY has a license. Do you want to lose it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Santini
I suspect you are correct, Fezz and Ziggy. But I am still plugging away.Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy
Then why is it NOW that in NC and OH that Opticians face their greatest challenge? It’s not because not because of some mandate by the democratic president to eliminate barriers to employment. It’s because these Republican legislators have introduced bills that support retailers. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a big Obama supporter but you can’t lay this assault at his feet. These are Republicans that are doing this not the Democrats. If NAOO and other such organizations can influence a legislator to introduce a bill why has OAA not done so as well? I guess it goes back to the leadership thing that we have talked about for years. I’m really surprised that the national/state optical organizations have not been more active in supporting canidates.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcdonald
No, I do not. But license or no, skilled people will still shine.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcdonald
B
Paul,Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy
I thought I had addressed that. It is our lack of forward development over the years. I am not a big Obama supporter either, and most of the political BS is coming from the Republican leadership trying to reduce the size of government. We now have a better OAA......and they do have lobby support, but I have heard nothing here.
Warren
Right on. Whether we are referring to "licensing" or just about any other subject we have to learn to STAND ON OUR OWN TWO FEET rather than relying on the Government to protect our individual interests. You, as an individual, are responsible for your own education, your own ethics, and your own well being - not a group of pin heads in your State or Federal Legislatures and State Associations. While I do endorse your futile efforts to make a silk purse out of a sows ear let not these efforts interfere with your carrying out the best business model in the industry, just like the biggies have done and grown enormously successful by ignoring the establishment rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Santini
You are responsible for yourself.
As much as I would enjoy a conversation regarding the cloning of little Barry's, wmcdonald's, Robert's, Paul's and the rest. The reality is that there are not enough viable situations for clay to be shaped and molded by the optical artisans and that number is dwindling every year. Keep in mind the time it takes for a young optician to go out their own, about 8 to 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Santini
Without opposition then.Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/2015/...ing_24168.html
The Obama administration will take a stab in it’s new budget at important labor market impediment: occupational licensing. Econ blog readers will be familiar with these laws that set frequently overly burdensom rules for who can do certain jobs. They often require far more training than is necessary, expensive classes and tests, and sometimes even degrees before someone can legally do job. While economists have long argued these regulations are a serious problem in need of attention, it’s something that gets way too little attention from politicians.
http://watchdog.org/201019/occupatio...ure-consumers/
States’ varied and confusing occupational licensing requirements have come under increased scrutiny lately. Even President Barack Obama tucked $15 million into his budget proposal to study the rationale behind licensure requirements across professions
I don't think current opticians are overtrained...
Just wrongly trained. Or rather incompletely trained.
B
The Timmons study is directly pointing at Opticians because of this inconsistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed
As it is in most unlicensed states..its is only after several of the low paid "drunk monkeys" cant fix an optical problem after several attempts that an employer is willing to pay the wages for a skilled, knowledgeable optician. There probably will not be less of us, just fewer getting paid appropriately for the optician skill set. Sales and Insurance know how will slowly begin to take over the field. Dont get me wrong ..those skill sets are important but are not opticianry.Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy
They took over this field years ago. Unfortunate, but true. Most Opticians have no real idea what they do not know, and only base their understanding upon their training and education......or lack thereof.
Living in NC, and NOT being licensed, I am still not in favor of removing licensure. I am, however, greatly in favor of making it more accessible.
I moved from a non-licensed state (PA) to the remote wilds of far northeaster NC about three years ago. I had three years in the industry in PA, and tomorrow will be my 3-year anniversary at my current job. In PA, I was working for (initially) a large corporation that hired me as a retail manager. I had loads of managerial experience and people skills (a BA in Anthropology), but absolutely NO optical experience, except from that as a patient. My general manager was ABO certified (I believe), as was our Lab Manager and our Lead Lab Tech. We did on-site surfacing, and whenever there was an adjustment issue or issue our sales staff couldn't manage, one of the three of them took the helm. I was supposed to be trained by our General manager, who managed his way into a nervous breakdown about six months after I was hired. So my "formal" training was next to nil.
That said, I took it upon myself to observe, learn, dig for information, and ask questions. It was certainly not a true apprenticeship, and it was definitely trial by fire, most days.
I left there (partially due to the lack of training and support, especially at a mid-manager level), to work for a private practice, the owner of which was just named Optometrist of the Year in the county he practices, as well as for the entire state. I had significantly more exposure to a more medically based model, as well as the field of Vision Therapy and Low-Vision treatment.
The only reason I left that practice was to move to NC for my now-husband's job - he is a military contract specialist. My pay (well, and his, too) was cut dramatically, albeit the cost of living is much lower, too.
My current employer is a small corporation that operates throughout the state. We have (now, at least) two full time doctors, three doctor's techs (and I help out over there when needed), and three optical staff, as well as two receptionists and an Office Manager. When I first worked here, I was exclusively managing our insurance and billing - I did not come in as optical staff, although that was where my experience was. A year ago, our lead lab tech got herself terminated - she was not licensed, although she had taken the test multiple times and failed each time. I was asked to step into her role as the person in our office with the MOST optical experience.Yes, the MOST experience.
Our Office Manager is technically enrolled in the Apprenticeship program, but when she had her first check-in with an auditor, she didn't even know what half the things were that he asked her if we were equipped with. I refuse to allow her to inspect glasses or edge lenses - there are problems every time.
I have learned all that I know from a combination of hands on experience and my own pursuit of knowledge. I learn something new every single day - or at least I am to, and if I am confronted with a situation, term, or condition with which I am unfamiliar, I educate myself.
Without any of our actual optical staff being truly licensed, we are, of course, dispensing under our doctors' licenses.
I would LOVE to become licensed. But our doctors here refuse to sponsor us. The corporate manager that is sponsoring my Office Manager is over 120 miles away, comes up to our office 2-3 times a year, and is predominantly inaccessible. I have seen the "guidance and training" being provided to my Office Manager, and it is NADA. I would do the online classes, if I had a reliable sponsor/mentor, and had the money for the classes and the books. (We make ends meet, but with also caring for a schizophrenic mother in law and paying for fertility treatments, making ends meet is all we can do and sometimes that it tight!). I can't do classroom training (even though I would prefer it), because the nearest location is over 3 hours away. Also, with my husbands job, the possibility always exists that we might have to move on fairly short notice, and I would hate to put all the time and money into getting licensed and then lose it because we have to move. And if we were to ever move back to the part of PA we left, it would make more sense for me to try to get into Optometry school and just go that route, instead.
TL;DR - I wish training was more accessible. I wish I had the money to invest. I wish there were closer locations to obtain classroom training, or at the very least, a competent mentor within 3 hours distance. I wish there was someone to help me learn what I don't know I don't know - so much, at least in my situation, I can only learn about when presented with it for the first time, because I am unaware it even exists! I am thankful I have the drive to learn as much as I have, and to continue to broaden my information base. I just wish I had better access to a formal education in this field!!!!
Where are you? I can help find a mentor for you, if you like. Give me a call, and I will see what I can do. 910-818-1146
Also keep in mind there are online classes now available and education grants to assist you. I wish you the best, and love to see that drive!
I read with dismay that a licensed New York optician wishing to relocate to Florida found that no license reciprocity exists between these two (2) States. How is it that Boards of 22 licensed States cannot come to an agreement that ‘they all fit eyeglasses to patients in the same way’.
Is there any real difference being fit for eyeglasses in NYC and Tampa?
Until there is evidence that licensure reciprocity between all 22 licensed states can be achieved by regulatory opticians, opticianry will never achieve the cohesion needed to fight the giant chains and avoid deregulation.
You don't understand but the primary purpose of licensing is to control the number of practitioners (not the quality) in a given State. Back in the day Florida implemented its licensing laws with extreme residency requirements to keep all the retiring opticians out of the State.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmorse
NC does not reciprocate with any other state either, nc has waiver of exam, stupid , yes, your right you don't fit eyeglasses different in one state to anotherQuote:
Originally Posted by rbaker
But at least an Optician moving to NC can be granted a license IF the education and training is the same in the two jurisdictions. NC licenses Opticians to fit CLs. SC, for example, does not, so those folks coming into the state would have to take the CL portion of the exam, and have the mandated education and training in that area. It would not be feasible to give a license to an Optician from a state without similar requirements. This is an example of a real problem in the field I have been describing for many years.......the vast differences between states, and the lack of desire to collaboratively come together to make it easier to move from state to state. We have to fix this soon!
Bingo! We cannot agree on what or how much an Optician should know or even if they should know anything at all. Some days I think I should have become a plumber.Quote:
Originally Posted by tmorse
Warren, at this late point, when all seems to be crashing down at once on NC Opticians, how can we work to fix the issue on a state and national level?
I certainly don't think we should be lumped into the same studies on Licensing boards as hair braiders.
It is late, mariannie. In reality, if all we do is measure ODs and Seg Heights, what harm are we causing? Most Opticians today, despite a few of us loudly telling you this day would come, sat on their respective posteriors and now wonder what happened.......so it has not been all at once. It has been coming. In my heart, I really feel the legislature will pass the fee bill allowing us to remain in tact, but it is what we do after that we need to focus on once this hurdle is cleared. The national issue is one we have been working on as well, but the current NCOA folks do not participate. Opticians can and should be so much more, and we really need to band together to reach greater heights, not only in NC, but across the nation. It will be a hard battle, however, because if you read this very thread you will see vastly different opinions. My view, and I have stated same for 30 years, is to educate and train, expand our scope and make ourselves relevant again......and we can. But it will take work and some vision. Some here just complain and make negative comments. In reality they have no plan, just worthless input. Others feel the license is not an issue. They are in unlicensed states, and seem to do just fine. But notice that those in the licensed states......even Barry who made earlier comments, did not want his gone so they place high value on their credential. We need to develop a strategic plan in this state, and nationally, to move the field forward. The summit, or whatever it is called now, has been working on it, but largely in a vacuum. I am not sure where they are (I was not a participant), but it will be interesting to see the plan. Most of the folks there I know and they are good people, one of the leaders of the thing works for Luxottica, and organization that certainly does not support licensure or education, beyond the very basic levels. If these individuals have any personal integrity, and care about the profession, that should not matter. Those in leadership roles should have a fiduciary role to all of the Opticians across the nation and I can only hope put together a plan, and soon, to help us move forward. Right now, we in this great Tar Heel state wait to see the fruit of our labors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcdonald
Warren, the only country I know of that has a much older political system and is similar to the USA, is Switzerland with their 24 Cantons, that all have their own Governments and rules, but what concerns professions the Federal Government rules the Country. If you are an optician you, have the same certificate after your apprenticeship and be permitted to officially work in any part of the country and in 4 official languages if you did learn them.
After that you can then take a opticians master course that takes a few years and step up the ladder of knowledge.
However I do not see any agreement on this matter among OptiBoard member/posters, with the exception of a few high quality supporters in line with Barry Santini who will weather any outside disruptions.
On this Continent, Canada was well on the way to become a similar professional organization as there is or was, in most of European Countries.
However the recent deregulation of British Columbia shows now the new trend the profession is going.
All of us should not ignore the super fast growing new optical industry of on-line optical s, supported by over 400 optical manufacturing companies belonging to Essilor on a world wide basis and more to join them.
Overheard from a recent national sales meeting, they predicted that 20% of the indie doc practices will close/fail in the next 5 years.
B
Barry...SERIOUS or SARCASM. Hard to tell...:unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Santini
That has continued to happen over the past 15 years and will continue. There is no way an OD can run an office and make $100,000 when they only take insurance; it is not possible to survive if you get insurance reimbursement only on 100% of your work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Santini
Who do they really work for? Looks like a few insurance companies to me.
We are independent and growing because we are lucky to be in a growing area with older wealthy folks who appreciate nice things.
I always find it interesting what folks define as optical skills necessary to be a professional.
We are really making this harder than it is; my system almost eliminates the need for a highly skilled optician. If you control what lens goes in the frame and ensure some parameters in the computer, at least 85% of the orders can be done perfectly without any assistance or real skill.
There are some high power work that requires more skill at picking out the correct eyewear but if the lenses are built properly what special thing needs to be done other than bend the temples and adjust the pads?
The real issue is not controlling the lenses you use when building the frames and the equipment used to try and make it work.
Just another way of looking at things and yes the indi will go by by as they should if they live off insurance only.
So what do you use for your AccuFit System there, craig?Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig
We use a marker and check it twice; almost zero remakes for ht changes. We also dispense with dots on to ensure they fit at dispense. As long as the rx is good they can see and read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallboy
OK so that is something that requires skill right? It sounded like you were completely writing off your staff as a bunch of trainables, I probably read you wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig
Unfortunately I cannot only cater to the rich and older, we strive to be a true family practice and optician shop, and it works very well for us. I think my knowledge and training and my staffs are what seperate us from our competition, as well as the quality of the lenses we use. Especially in an unlicensed state full of hucksters and trained jewelry girls and guys taught to upsale at all costs. Because of the blue collar folks in town we do take insurance, but we also have budget and high end out of pocket options.
You just hit a nerve there, I was being a sensitive susan probably.
I think that this is just a natural adaptation of the business model of all medical practices. Where have all the solo practice physicians gone? How about your good old neighborhood druggists (oops . . . pharmacists?) Remember back in the day when you had to buy all your frames from a local wholesaler? No, you probably don't but that is the good old days that some of us refer to rather than some low level peddler six levels down the chain of command from a decision maker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Santini
Look, there is just too much financial gain to be made to leave the business of eye care in the hands of a whole bunch of unwashed individual minions. Besides, taking their customers away from them is like taking candy from a baby. The business is now in the hands of just a few corporations; manufacturers, retailers and insurer's who have the ability to change the way that people receive their eye care.
There are, of course, exceptions to this rule but they will pass into history when their entrepreneur owners tip over and pass on to their eternal reward or Mr. Big Corporation makes them an offer that they cant refuse.
Statements like that are usually made by companies (or their representatives) that are trying to sell you some information or product that will "prevent" you from becoming one of the statistics. They want to be your "partner" so the two of you can stick it out together...in which case, you aren't an independent anymore. (Un)fortunately there are too many companies like this in the optical field, although it is not unique to our field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Santini
True independent practitioners have disappeared in every field from auto mechanics to optical to medicine...so they are probably right when they say there will be a decrease. Online everything is becoming more common. Some have even started "online" or "remote" refractions...ostensibly to bring affordable eyecare to the masses, but in reality to bring profits to the investors.
So, its all about profits. Barry, correct me if I am wrong, but the company who made this prediction...are they selling something?
I asked one of my patients if it was okay to use quotes from his emails to me in a letter to the governor regarding Licensed Opticians Here is his response:
Hi Marianne, Sure that’s fine. Frankly, I was going to google to see if licensure was required in NC after my experience at the other place. I was thinking probably not as he was more about sales as opposed to trade knowledge and skill. His customer service also sucked as it pertained to follow-up and keeping lines of communication open. Seems like some really dumb legislation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbaker
Today it is the same in every field of commercial activity with the exceptions for actual maintenance companies, that are needed for work on the spot.
The power of the internet lets you reach every corner of the world in seconds, but most people do not care what is happening elsewhere in their field of work and income.
North America is the training ground for the big corporations because of the largest commercial freedom of any country. Then they use what they learned when setting foot into newly developing countries.
Did you know that one of the most populated countries as India is the next international industrial power house ?
A country where a few hundred million citizens still have never heard of flushing toilette's, they now make car parts for just about every brand world wide. There is also one of the largest weapons industries as the government owned Barhat (BEL), Search for the latest updates on ◾Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) which has today 47,000 employees.
The modern optical scene has already been set up as a full American copy of the Essilor system, from a full line of optical labs right to on-line optical s.
I am very glad these are my last years...
I had the honor of working for and with some fine people and they're all gone.
and so is this trade...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy