Give me my PD Petition.....................................

[kcount]

I provide Volkswagons. Or as I like to say, Porsche-lite.


Yeah Santini its a Porsche 914 but it was a VW/Porsche design.
By the way the 911 turbo 6 fits very nicely in the back of this one too.

[Barry Santini]

If the customer doesn't recognize the value of the service offered by a B&M shop then that's the problem... not some nonsense over PDs.

Does the Porche dealership lose some customers because they'd rather just buy a Chevy? Yes. It's spelled PorSche, and pronounced 2 syllables.

Are there measurable differences that make the Porche a better car? NO. I've owned them. Take my word on this. On some factors, yes. Do all customers care about those factors? No. But they *still* want to own Porsches.

Would a dealership that sells Chevy's at Porche prices do well? Heck no. HEY! It's PORSCHE!

Those of us in the traditional non-chain B&M optical business are the Porche dealerships of the optical industry. ...however if customers perceive that we only provide Chevy's at Porche prices don't be surprised if they go elsewhere.

This is the truest thing ever said on the forum.

B

[EyeCare Rich]

Well said for both opt63 and Chip. I really like the Porsche analogy opt63. Right on the money there.

[opt63]

With a very complex (eg digitally surfaced progressive) or specialist lens a very accurate PD and proper vertical fitting can make a big difference for the customer.

However, for the basic single vision specs (which is the primary market for most online outfits) its really not rocket science and we should stop pretending it is.

Most frames move around on the face far more than the mm or so some are fussing about.

Also, let's not forget that with advances in smartphones it's only a matter of time until most online shops convert to a digital image based system that isn't all that different from what many brick-n-mortar shops do today anyway. Many online shops already send out the frames free for in-home fittings before purchase so they just need to have the customer use an app to take some pics with the frame on. The PD (mono or otherwise) and seg height or other measurements can be taken remotely.

With the right technology and records on the lens placed in the frame the same techniques could be used to verify final fit and alignment remotely as well to ensure then final lens lines up correctly on the face.

If the customer doesn't recognize the value of the service offered by a B&M shop then that's the problem... not some nonsense over PDs.

Does the Porche dealership lose some customers because they'd rather just buy a Chevy? Yes.

Are there measurable differences that make the Porche a better car? On some factors, yes. Do all customers care about those factors? No.

Would a dealership that sells Chevy's at Porche prices do well? Heck no.

Those of us in the traditional non-chain B&M optical business are the Porche dealerships of the optical industry. ...however if customers perceive that we only provide Chevy's at Porche prices don't be surprised if they go elsewhere.

[chip anderson]

What "visual health" is endangered if the PD is off, or the Rx for that matter (some strabismus patient's excepted)? If the glasses are wrong the patient just doesn't see until it's fixed. He doesn't develop an eye murmer, or go blind, or lose vision.
Now if you dispense the wrong drops for glaucoma or hypertension, or something you are endangering his "visual health."
Lets not over-rate the importance of a pair of glasses.

Chip

And no, I am not in favor of mail order glasses. I also don't think the patient should be locked into the prescribers shop either.

[EyeCare Rich]

Why do people think they have the right to other people's time and equipment? The reason a PD is not part of the RX is it is not a (made-up word here) a diagnosable condition such as presbyopia or PVD. If a consumer is shopping at "DIY Optical" on line then they should DIY their PD.

Not being a carpenter, if I screw-up a DIY project at my home by not having the proper tool, I don't go to the local carpenter and brow-beat him to use his expertise/equipment. Same is true in reverse, I don't go to the carpenter to get his tools and expertise before starting my project.

I completely agree here.

I do however feel, as many on here do, that online is here to stay unfortunately. We have to adapt and find a way to operate with it. I have set up a fee for measuring their PD, advising that they need an OC or Seg for accuracy that we cannot do without the frame, and asking that they return with the glasses to verify that my measurements were fabricated correctly. I've only had to do this twice in the last year and a half.

I find it interesting, and somewhat irritating though, when the patient comes to you asking for help to order their glasses online though. I tell them my policy above and send them on their way.

[Nikolay Angelov]

difference ... between PD centered eyewear and *frame* compensated/PD centered eyewear

When we talk about "PD centered" there are 2 options:

1. use total PD divided by 2 to get the mono PD
2. use measured mono PDs for both eyes (pupilometer etc.)

We routinely see differences of about 2mm between right/left monocular PD (pupilometer values).
So if we used the PD/2 equation for monocular centration distance (instead of measuring actual mono PD with a pupilometer) we will get a 2 mm total decentration.

If we got the mono PD with a pupilometer (option 2):
However the pupilometer sits on the front of the nose and eyeglasses tend to hold the sides of the nose.
Depending on how irregular the nose is the frame will be shifted differently than the pupilometer was.

What differences could we expect? I have no actual data.
However i will ask my colleagues to measure and attach pupilometer values to the video centration system printouts.
When i get a good amount of data i will share the file and do some simple statistics (mean value, standard deviation etc.).

how much significant difference in "comfort"/vision would you expect

On small RXs with standard spherical lenses i expect the differences to be negligible (when comparing a pupilometer mono PD and the actual frame horizontal centratrion distance).

If however we consider a calculated mono PD (total PD divided by 2) i thing the difference would be noticeable (as the error will be larger).

We do a video centration on medium and above RX's and any lens more special than a spherical. All aspheric, atoric, bi/trifocals, PALs and so on pass through video centration (mandatory).
The only reason we don't do moderate RXs with spherical lenses is because of time constrains (they get a conventional pupilometer measurement).

PS: The phoropter takes automatically the PD from the auto-refractor/keratometer (in our case).
PD could be fine-tuned in the "PD mode" where crosshair lenses are inserted and the eyes illuminated.

[Barry Santini]

Wait, what !?

How would you set up the trial frame without the PD?

For light to moderate power Rxs, by "eye"...roughly centering the eye

How do you setup the phoropter without the PD?

Same...

Also most auto-refractometers measure (reasonably well) the PD.

Yes!

On a different note:
The public obviously do not understand that the PD and the (monocular) horizontal centration distance are two different values.
The later one depends on how the frame sits on the face and varies for each frame.

But, Nikolay, exactly how much difference (I'm assuming we're takling tenths of a mm here) do you *rountinely* expect to encounter between PD centered eyewear and *frame* compensated/PD centered eyewear, and...

how much significant difference in "comfort"/vision would you expect clients would experience/recognize for the same Rx range?

B

[Aberdeen Angus]

Wait, what !?

How would you set up the trial frame without the PD?

How do you setup the phoropter without the PD?

Also most auto-refractometers measure (reasonably well) the PD.

On a different note:
The public obviously do not understand that the PD and the (monocular) horizontal centration distance are two different values.
The later one depends on how the frame sits on the face and varies for each frame.

Well, they put on the trial frame and twist the nobbly bits until the lenses are centred. Simples! We don't use phoropters or auto refractors, so can't comment on them. Some of the big chains do, which is great for independents because so often although the numbers might be correct, they don't take into account real life.

[Nikolay Angelov]

the optometrist does not measure the PD

Wait, what !?

How would you set up the trial frame without the PD?

How do you setup the phoropter without the PD?

Also most auto-refractometers measure (reasonably well) the PD.

On a different note:
The public obviously do not understand that the PD and the (monocular) horizontal centration distance are two different values.
The later one depends on how the frame sits on the face and varies for each frame.

[Aberdeen Angus]

I am not worried about online sales, in the same way I am not worried by Specsavers (big discount optical chain here). However I do not see any reason to aid my competitors. I suppose as well that the situation is slightly different here as the NHS pays for all eye examinations, and as such it would be rather hard to charge for a PD. Also, the optometrist does not measure the PD, except in very rare circumstances where the wish to produce prismatic effect, or in very high powers. It is the responsibilty of the dispensing optican here to ensure the correct measurements, and as I am not providing the eyewear I see no reason to do the measurement for who is.

[opt63]

In stark contrast to the logic put forth by some, the PD can't both be a:

- supercritical medical measurement that if done online will lead to blind masses driving over pedestrians

AND

- proprietary commercial data that is being 'stolen' by online optical shops

If its a danger to public health then it should be part of the exam and performed only by ODs... and if it's medical data it belongs to the patient, period, to take where they please. Regulators have long since written such in stone (there was a time when ODs argued that only if their people made and sold the glasses could the patient be properly treated... such arguments lost and now ODs must give the Rx to patients to take where they please).

[optical24/7]

For the one millionth time;

There are B&M right down the street from you that offer complete eye glasses starting at 39 bucks. There is a chain here offering 2 pair of PAL's with frames for 100 bucks. And you (*the collective you) really worry about online sales? Really?

I suggest you ( *the collective you) worry about that!






* Collective you; People that think online eyewear percentages will surpass online CL sales. ( Which is a whooping 8-10% of total CL sales).

[Opticianjw]

let's be honest with ourselves, the online business is here to stay and we need to see how we can compete. The lens companies and frame companies have not objected and now are getting into online sales themselves. Independents are not unified and can continue to complain till the cows come home but that will not change anything. So that being said, if you lose 20 % of your business to online sales you need to figure out how to increase your business either by taking on line sales yourself or coming up with other ways to maintain your business. Right now laws prohibit licensed professionals to offer online eyewear legally but every year more and more people are purchasing eyeglasses on line, that needs to be changed. Licensed professionals need to be able to compete for that same business if they desire to offer online eyewear. I would prefer going back to the way business was a few years ago but since that is not an option, we need to change with the changing ways or look for another career.

[Johns]

You can say that again!

Ok...if I can remember it all.

Are you serious????? Are you REALLY serious???

From what we are told, there are (I'm rounding up here) somewhere around 400 trillion pairs of glasses being sold every hour online. And (correct me if I'm wrong here) since January of 2010 (2 years ago right?) there have only been 6,561 people sign this stupid petition?? That's almost a whopping 7 people per day!!!! OMG!!, WTF!!!!!HHC!!! (that's Online My Glasses, Wife That's Fat, & Holy, Holy, Cow)

Heck we've had Optiboard polls that drew more responses than this PD petition has!

Really?