The French

[optispares]

EyeManFla said.

PM Blair, who I was never a big fan of but I'm growing to like more each day

.
Fine we ought to parcel him and the wicked witch up and post them to your side of the pond. be more popular there than he is here.

United Nations

if anything was more inappropriately named !!!!!!!

[Jeff Trail]

Hey it's been a while since we had a rip roaring political debate :) might as well jump in this one, as usual I seem to be the odd man out on this side of the great devide..I'm as fed up with saddam is the next guy but I don't think it is a "war" with Iraq as much as it is a war with Saddam.. The way I see it all the saber rattler's are shaking it towards the one that is not really a threat to us.. the big debate now is the have a "missle" capable of going over 93 miles (by 5 miles) last I checked that is in no way hitting my back yard..NORTH KOREA is the one they all should be talking more about..they have the ability to HIT us NOW, developing nuclear capability NOW..and have a bigger nut running the place than Iraq...BUT since they are an "actual" threat than they are being more "diplomatic" ..sheesh, go figure
Shoot 3/4's of Iraq already hates saddam already...for a .25 of the cost we could have worked with them to over throw that whack job..
For the ones talking about "oh but look at the gas prices and oil"...right now crude is $34 a barrel and gas prices here in FL. (at least where I am at) just hit a $1.68 a gallon...three years ago crude was $38 a barrel and gas was LESS a gallon then than now.. by my book that is not Sadamm but our OWN oil companies that just committed an act of WAR!!

Jeff "I'm winning the lottery and moving to a cave" Trail

[John R]

Nice point on the oil prices Jeff...You could properly add the government into the equation on to high prices as i bet they are ripping off more in taxes...Just like over here.....

Sadam is a threat to his own people not us....As you say N Korea is the biggest threat, but then again thats just that bit to close to Vietnam for you yanks.
Jeff, you're not a lone voice as you seem to have a echo on your posts.......:hammer: twice now i've moved a duplicate post of yours.....
You sure you're not a politician...repeating your self all the time.....

[Pete Hanlin]

Many would agree that USA should be disarmed as should all countries of the world...
If I lived in a country other than America, I would- without a doubt- view Americans with attitudes like my own with a certain amount of distaste and disdain.

Just to pile wood on the fire in response to this statement, however... The simple fact is that America is the sole remaining superpower in the world. Why do we put our nose in everyone else's business? Because we are the only ones who can at this time in history.

Its annoying that America wants to take care of Saddam? Well, let's look at other periods in history where there was one superpower. What about the Greeks, the Romans, the Russians, and- dare we mention- the British Empire? In each case, the theme was the same- war and conquest. America isn't trying to "conquer" Iraq, we just prefer not to leave him with the potential to gas or someday possibly nuke someone.

If America were to unilaterally disarm today, the "new world order" would be a tie among all nations that have nuclear capability (China, Israel, India, the U.K., probably Korea and a few other countries). People like Saddam would become much more threatening in a world without America's military capabilities.

I accept that other countries tire of America's "butting in" on the rest of the world's problems. However, as an American, I'm sick and sure enough tired of the whinging and moaning of other countries over our actions. If some other country feels they could do the job better, fine- then do it.

[John R]

Pete Hanlin said:
The simple fact is that America is the sole remaining superpower in the world. .

Must be real lonely for the likes of Bush having all these pesky little dogs pissing on you all the time.
As you say history has shown superpowers end up back at the bottom of the pile sooner or later......

However, as an American, I'm sick and sure enough tired of the whinging and moaning of other countries over our actions. If some other country feels they could do the job better, fine- then do it.

Alas, this is something us brits are good at.....Could we do a better job, No thanks we dont want it.....
Personally i say leave well alone as in time his own will take him out.

[John R]

Something someone said to me this week over Iraq etc...

America has had one act of terrorism against it 9-11 and feels that the rest of the world should support them to squash these groups from the face of the planet.
Yet here in the UK we endured 20+ years of acts of terrorism from the IRA and what did America do.....FUND the terrosists.....to allow them to kill more Innocent, and prevent normal people living their daily lives in peace.
This has left us with a situation where a whole generation knows nothing but violence as a way of life.....

Why should we bother......

[hcjilson]

I would ask the author...

John,
I would ask the author of that peice to document the the fact that America has funded the IRA. American funds are expended through acts of our Congress, and I recall no such act authorizing funding the IRA.The USS Cole bombing, the USMC Barracks bombing in Lebanon, The African Embassy bombings etc were all acts of terror against America. America is just sending a message and that message is: We're not going to take it anymore ! We don't apologize for that and we don't much care who doesn't like it.


Secondly, more British citizens were killed in the Trade Center bombing than the total amount killed in IRA bombings. Somewhere in excess of 300 people if memory serves. Americans abhor the loss of innocent lives whether it be in America or anywhere else.

If British citizens are not as outraged as we are about acts of terror in both of our countries I would be greatly surprised.

After all is said and done, after all avenues for a peaceful solution to this problem (up to and concluding yesterday) what more would anyone have America do?........Wait until we are seriously gassed, bombed, or maimed?.................................
hj

[John R]

Hj. I wasn't implying that the government was funding the IRA (Though they have funded other terror groups in bids to oust governments) mealy many of their supporters who live in the states. Its a well known fact the after 9-11 the funds started to dry up as many irish-americans realised just where their money went and what it did....Who knows could have been a member of the ira who trained Bin-ladens lot in the first place..They sure have in other countries round the world.

You could also draw the parallel that the IRA have also killed many of their own for not toeing their line, would this be cause for America to invade Ireland...

Today we are seeing many people taking to the streets in anti-war marches....We even have one in our little town...
Sorry but over here public opinion is heavily against going to war with Iraq.

[Jeff Trail]

Maybe we should start a "history lesson" since Steve started going backwards :) ...I know most people are fairly surprised when they find out Iraq is only about twice as big as the state of Idaho ...only a population of 24 Mil. ...and you figure that it was created under British rule in hmm..it was 1932 or 38..I think 32..a coup in the late 50's and more or less "military" rule since..
Now everyone wants to keep saying "lets attack Iraq" ..well it is NOT Iraq but the Ba'th party who controls Iraq, which BTW if anyone wanted to do some digging the DAY that Saddam took power he gathered 3 or 400 (I forget the number) of the major players in the Ba'th party and as he read off a list of names a hundred or so were DRUG out and shot!! hmm don't remember much said about that?..shoot the literacy rate for Iraq is only around 60% ...In the Iran/Iraq war in the 80', and I do remember seeing it on the nightly news about the use of chemical warfare against Iran as WELL as his own people..don't remember an upsweep of "let's kick his a$$" then.. so if you actually want to break it down, when it was highly influenced under Bristish rule (the middle East) and they started pulling back and restructuring the "map" over half of Iraq (Sunni and Shiate) do not even like, more like hate Northern Iraq and so mainly it is the Ba'th party not the country you would want to battle.. I think we tend to (in the U. S) try to look at things through our own perspective.. which I think is not a very smart thing to do, you consider that those "borders" are not as important as the nomadic and tribal, wanting for another word to describe it, and the "borders" are not as important to these groups as the "blood lines" be it religion or relation...
Now, thinking we are a "super" power, I think is not really correct and if everything was considered I find it fairly scary to think that if some country gets a push from this "super power" and they figure that "might as well strike back" than just be beaten into the ground you are in for a VERY complicated and bloody world. (i.e. N.Korea)
I love it when people bring up the "super power" thing, especially when they refer to the Soviet Union as something that just "disappeared".. well where do you think ALL those nuclear arms went to that the Soviet Union had, disappeared as well? .. Now instead of a central control you have multiple warheads all over the place in a half a dozen "new" countries...makes ya think, huh?
Lets face the facts, the ONLY reason that anyone got involved with the previous "desert storm" was two things.. oil and the surrounding countries of Iraq was worried about stability in the region..
So I want someone to give me a VALID way that "Iraq" is a threat to U.S. soil? ..you can't use the "support" terrorism theory, or you would have to attack Saudi Arabia (who one of the royal family/diplomats gave MONEY to some of the 9/11 group), you would have to attack Turkey, lots of them fled there (or is it OK for them to harbor terrorist?) .. Egypt..shoot the majority of the 9/11 people were Egyptian. don't see them on the chopping block?
I just do not see the reasoning to actually INVADE a country that is so ripe for a coup it's beyond pathetic ..over half the population hates the other half...
The part that will stink, is when we do roll into Iraq (I don't think Bush will not) and they fight back everyone will say "see they are fighting, we have dead kids".. Think about it.. if you were sitting in your house.. A FOREIGN army comes rolling into your town, your neighborhood, your house.. you going to sit there or are you going to defend yourself?
Make no mistake WE are that "foreign" army that will be asking everyone to just "give up" and you think that is NOT a scary thing for ANYONE to do? .. I know I would not just give up if the tables were turned..
Taking some of Pete's argument, mixing in a little of John's and really if you think about it we already have the ways to defeat someone like Saddam..being a more well connected (computers and technology) and global society..NO one can afford to be disconnected or isolated any longer ..you see chemical weapons or nuclear..you do a surgical strike.. you take someone's technology, exports and money.. that's the end of the story..
Oh well, this was fun, but I can see everyone has already decided on what they are for or against so it is kind of a wasted debate.. was interesting to see some people's thought's on the subject though...

Jeff "you can have a steel fist, that does NOT mean you have to crush everything" Trail

[hcjilson]

And ANOTHER thing!

If anyone ever begins to THINK that this is not about OIL.........ought to buy a couple of gallons in Hyannis MA today! Reg 1.78 premium 1.92.

Heating oil is going to 1.73. Bumper stickers are seen in Texas saying....Drive 80.......freeze a Yankee.

It was no accident we have an oilman in the White House. It was CHAD's fault!

Will this winter ever end????

hj

[ioconnell]

On the way to War??

George Bush, an intelligent Man? I think not, but he sure has got many an able adivsor.


In the past month more than 180,000 american troops have passed through Shannon Airport en route to Iraq. This civilian airport is situated approx. 45 mins away from where I live. Peace activists set up camp at the airport and caused $500,000 worth of damage to two American jets. in general things were pretty peaceful but the Gardai waving their little stick's weren't quick enough to prevent these attacks. The army(who are armed) were called in and the activists disbanded.

But Why the U.S. choose Shannon? Why not the Uk, Frankfurt or other?

They chose Shannon because Ireland is a Neutral country. Any attack on Shannon by the Iraqi's would cause an international incident triggering a unilateral attack on Iraq by the UN which is what Bush wants.

As for French help, I know that the french have not been much help to Irelnad in the past when they were fighting for Independence against the British. When they did send help they were not able to dock in an Irish port.

Now the IRA, I am in no way defending the Ira. 9-11 may have made americans who were funnding the ira think twice about what they were doing but what about the British who fund the loyalists, the Uff and the UVF etc.

Each year loyalists kill more catholics than the ira kill protestants in paramilitary styled attacks. But these are more periodic and gangland style killings unlike the Ira's bombing's.

And what happens when loyalists feud among themsleves? They go to England and Scotland to those who provide them refuge.

Why should the British blame the the Irish and americans for aiding terrorists, they should take a good look at themselves before pointing their fingers of blame.

God bless Bill Clinton for what he did in northern Ireland to cool tensions. That he did without physical force.

However, I believe that if the terrorists in Iraq have weapons of mass destruction they must be taken out, by the UN

[John R]

Re: On the way to War??

ioconnell said:
And what happens when loyalists feud among themselves? They go to England and Scotland to those who provide them refuge.

Yea and we should have sent them packing back to ireland....

None of us are blameless in the war of terriosts...As someone said before One mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter

Now a new point what is a weapon of mass destruction ???
To my mind that is anything that can kill or destroy more than one thing.....
A quick answer that springs to mind is The human race As we are far more destructive than anything on this palnet.....

[Pete Hanlin]

However, I believe that if the terrorists in Iraq have weapons of mass destruction they must be taken out, by the UN.
Well, that's the problem... the only thing the UN seems capable of is empty posturing and toothless edicts.

Having shown some fervent nationalism, I will acknowledge that America doesn't have a particularly great record about choosing just when/if to get into a fight...

Maybe I'm the last person alive who thinks all this is about more than just oil, but I still believe Saddam's got something we haven't heard about yet (like an actual nuke). To those who argue that the U.S. doesn't have a right to choose who has and doesn't have nukes, that is a hard one to justify.

I would just hope that everyone could agree that Iraq is a country that doesn't really need to have them right at the moment.

[chm2023]

The discussion about the IRA is interesting and I think illustrates the long term solution to this whole issue of mid-east based terrorists against the west and the US specifically. What turned the tide against the IRA terrorists was primarily economic growth in Ireland--people with jobs and a stake in the society and economy are much less likely to resort to terrorism. That and some courageous leadership in Ireland, Britain and US. I cannot see any other outcome of bombing Iraz other than validating the very worst view of the US among the Arab/Muslim nations. And of course, the huge unanswered question remains, after Saddam is out of the picture, then what? I grow wearier each day of Bush, this guy has 2 answers to any question, bomb Iraq and cut taxes.

[BIG D]

THE FRENCH

LOOK, ANY PEOPLE THAT LIKE JERRY LEWIS THAT MUCH HAVE GOT
TO HAVE A PROBLEM.

DALE