Just when you thought it was safe.. Bush to veto ban on waterboarding

[rinselberg]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water.. President Bush is set to veto legislation that would restrict the CIA to only the [menu of 19] interrogation techniques in the Army Field Manual, effectively outlawing waterboardiing, sensory deprivation and other "enhanced" interrogation techniques.

"The bill would take away one of the most valuable tools on the war on terror, the CIA program to detain and question key terrorist leaders and operatives.."

• Deputy White House Press Secretary Tony Fratto (MSNBC).

Speaking of waterboarding, a new post surfaced recently on NBC's Deep Background:

The 9/11 Commission suspected that critical information used in its landmark report was the product of harsh interrogations of al-Qaida operatives--interrogations that many critics have labeled torture. Yet, commission staffers never questioned the [CIA] about the interrogation techniques and in fact ordered a second round of interrogations specifically to ask additional questions of the same operatives, NBC News has learned.

Those conclusions are the result of an extensive NBC News analysis of the 9/11 Commission’s Final Report and interviews with Commission staffers and current and former U.S. intelligence officials.

The analysis shows that much of what was reported about the planning and execution of the terror attacks on New York and Washington was derived from the interrogations of high-ranking al-Qaida operatives. Each had been subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques." Some were even subjected to waterboarding, the most controversial of the techniques, which simulates drowning.

• See the complete NBC report and accompanying comments from readers.

Review what OptiBoarders have already said about this topic:

• House ignores OptiBoard poll, passes ban on CIA waterboarding

[gemstone]

GW is privy to much information that we are not.

[chip anderson]

Who wants a "restricted" intelligence service other than those who wish this country to fall?

[DragonLensmanWV]

Who wants a "restricted" intelligence service other than those who wish this country to fall?

Used to be we at least had the high moral ground. I guess that's not important anymore.

[allanon]

Sucks to work in my office :)

[chip anderson]

Dragon:
In WWII we stuck the heads of Japanese on the aerials of our tanks to terrify the jap soldiers.
We fire bombed all the fire stations in Tokyo just a half-hour before we set fire to the entire city.
We took no German prisoners after "the great escape."
In Vietnam we took three prisoners at a time up 8,000 ft. in helicopters and tossed them out one at a time, until the remainder was willing to tell us everything we wanted to know. Usually we only had to toss one out.
In WWII we wanted to use Phosgeen and Nerve Gass on Imo Gima instead of invading. Only at the last minite did we allow the "sensitve British" to talk us out of it. Of course the sensitive British develped phosphorus bombs and projectiles.
We nuked Nagasaki, and Hiroshima.
We sank 90% of Japanese shipping (with our submarines alone).
Andrew Jackson once sacked a Canadian City just for "insulting the U.S. flag.

What kind of fairy tale world do you want to fight your wars in?

Chip

[rinselberg]

The Liberals are coming--spread the alarms:
No time to lose--shoulder your arms.
To every Middlesex village and farm:
Deadbolt ye’ doors and safe be from harm.

--The Midnight Ride of Paul “Revered”

During the run-up to and following the release of the 9-11 Commission's report, there was a certain handful of OptiBoard posters who were beating the drums (more or less incessantly) that President Bush was "dissing" the 9-11 report, or was out of step with the findings of the report, or was at fault for not having anticipated the findings of the report before the 9-11 attacks, or was too dumb to understand the findings of the report or was disinterested in implementing any of the recommendations of the 9-11 Commission; etc.

Where are these posters now, when it appears--as I posted here at the very top--that some of the key information in the 9-11 report was obtained by "enhanced" interrogation techniques (including waterboarding) and that this was known to the members of the 9-11 Commission..?

"We're shocked--shocked--to learn that enhanced interrogation techniques were being used.."


I was skeptical about these enhanced interrogation techniques--especially waterboarding--but I have been swayed by remarks from former CIA Director George Tenet and CIA case officer John Kiriakou that enhanced interrogation techniques have produced valuable intelligence about al-Qaida.

If the interrogation techniques allowed by the Army Field Manual were sufficient to protect us, then we wouldn't need to have a CIA--oh, I forgot: "We don't need and shouldn't have a CIA." One of the cherished tenets (not a "George" Tenet) of the Church of Ultra-Liberalism.


Latest on the veto from MSNBC..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23526436/


And now a commercial message from Navy Patrol Boat, River..

[pong][/pong]"You may have been up the river, but you've never seen this!"

[shanbaum]

GW is privy to much information that we are not.

That may be the least true statement ever posted anywhere.

[DragonLensmanWV]

Dragon:
In WWII we stuck the heads of Japanese on the aerials of our tanks to terrify the jap soldiers.
We fire bombed all the fire stations in Tokyo just a half-hour before we set fire to the entire city.
We took no German prisoners after "the great escape."
In Vietnam we took three prisoners at a time up 8,000 ft. in helicopters and tossed them out one at a time, until the remainder was willing to tell us everything we wanted to know. Usually we only had to toss one out.
In WWII we wanted to use Phosgeen and Nerve Gass on Imo Gima instead of invading. Only at the last minite did we allow the "sensitve British" to talk us out of it. Of course the sensitive British develped phosphorus bombs and projectiles.
We nuked Nagasaki, and Hiroshima.
We sank 90% of Japanese shipping (with our submarines alone).
Andrew Jackson once sacked a Canadian City just for "insulting the U.S. flag.

What kind of fairy tale world do you want to fight your wars in?

Chip

I guess you're right - we never had the moral high ground.

[gemstone]

That may be the least true statement ever posted anywhere.

I refuse to argue that with you. You can't handle the truth.

[shanbaum]

I refuse to argue that with you. You can't handle the truth.

OK, but remember what happened to Jack in that movie.

[chip anderson]

The real world is far, far different from movies.

The only really important thing in a war is winning. Losing with honor is not an option, no matter how noble this may be.

Chip

[karen]

Shanbaum, while I agree that W is not the brightest bulb it is very likely that he knows (or shall I say has been told to make it more palatable) things that we as ordinary citizens are not likely to be privy too.

Dragon, I am curious as to what you think acceptable methods of obtaining info would be-not trying to be sarcastic or snotty here, just asking. I think our moral ground is still higher than lots of the other folks we are up against.

[braheem24]

We had the war won on sept. 12th 2001. The whole world stood behind us and was willing to help in our cause, looks like we may have to wait till the 2009 Inauguration for that to happen again.

We cant win this war by making dumb decisions that cause the world to hate us and think we can rectify the situation by torturing a few people.

We create more terrorists then we kill using current methods.

Torture, dont torture, I really dont care you're giving up your civil rights as much as mine just dont be shocked when the precident is used to take away the rest of your rights.

[shanbaum]

Shanbaum, while I agree that W is not the brightest bulb it is very likely that he knows (or shall I say has been told to make it more palatable) things that we as ordinary citizens are not likely to be privy too.

OK, I can agree with "has been told."

[karen]

Torture, dont torture, I really dont care you're giving up your civil rights as much as mine just dont be shocked when the precident is used to take away the rest of your rights.

could you clarify that please?

[braheem24]

Anyone who is ok torture, wiretapping, imprisonment without a trial is giving up thier rights as well as mine. Dont be shocked when it's used in court to take away even more rights.

[chip anderson]

Soon, very soon Big Brother will be watching like he is in England. Be afraid, be very afraid.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness.


If there is hope, it lies in the Proles.

Emanuel Goldstien

East Asia is at war with Eurasia

[rinselberg]

Anyone who is ok torture, wiretapping, imprisonment without a trial is giving up thier rights as well as mine. Dont be shocked when it's used in court to take away even more rights.

Waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques are not torture. Wiretapping--FISA, "packaged" court warrants vs. ala carte, the telecom companies--it's still being thrashed out among the three branches of the federal government. Imprisonment without trial? Noooooo.. the Gitmo boys are starting to get their due days in court, starting with KSM (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed).

We had the war won on September 12, 2001. The whole world stood behind us and was willing to help our cause; [now] looks like we may have to wait [until the next president in 2009] for that to happen again.

This is as pointless as it is glib. Give credit where credit is due, starting with the CIA--from the first day after the 9-11 attacks, forward.

We cant win this war by making dumb decisions that cause the world to hate us and think we can rectify the situation by torturing a few people.

"Dumb decisions"..? Cough-cough.. ahem..

We create more terrorists than we kill using current methods.

Why would anyone credit any more of these statements?

Consider the source.

[shanbaum]

Wow, rinselberg, what a relief to know that everything is going along just fine, there's no torture, the surge is working (that is, democracy will be blooming in Babylonia any day now), prosperity is just around the corner, and you were right all along.

Americans will spend at least the next century living down this clusterf*** (i.e., the Bush Administration and its neocon foreign policy) and you will be cheerleading the idiots responsible for it until they pry your cold, dead fingers off the keyboard, no doubt...

[chip anderson]

Actually prosperity is appearently present in Babylonia. At least I heard they expect 150,000,000,000 profit on oil for 07. Concidering the population they don't need any other "prosperity."

[gemstone]

OK, but remember what happened to Jack in that movie.

What movie? Who is Jack?

[gemstone]

We create more terrorists then we kill using current methods.

Let's get them all now. While we are there. Run them all out of the woodwork so they can kill themselves or we kill them ALL NOW! We should stay until they are all dead.

[rinselberg]

Actually prosperity is appearently present in Babylonia. At least I heard they expect 150,000,000,000 profit on oil for 07. Concidering the population they don't need any other "prosperity."

I'm hoping that this will translate into some better news for "us". As I posted here, about oil prices.. and for shanbaum et al: What should have been done about the U.N.-administered economic sanctioning of Iraq? Keep the sanctions in place, to the continuing benefit of Saddam and the continuing detriment of the more common people of Iraq? Or remove the sanctions, bestowing something of a "victor's laurel" upon Saddam, and disencumber the Iraqi regime to resume their WMD programs and other regional aggression?

Aren't you giving that other poster--braheem24--a free pass? I responded to his post. I went to some length to include a link to another recent post of mine, in which I responded to another one of his posts. I hope you followed the link that I included. I wonder if you find as much fault with what he posted (on that other thread) as I do. If we just take one post at a time, without looking at a series of posts from the same poster, we lose vital context, and nonsense can easily acquire a veneer that disguises itself as rational discussion.

Of course it's your privilege to dole out free passes as you see fit, but does that produce the most informative discussion?

[karen]

Anyone who is ok torture, wiretapping, imprisonment without a trial is giving up thier rights as well as mine. Dont be shocked when it's used in court to take away even more rights.

hmmm.....Ok here goes. As far as torture I am of the mindset that an enemy combatant that could give information should be persuaded to do so. Not pulling out his fingernails per se but if you can psychologically fool him into thinking he is drowning when he is in fact not and that causes him to tell you where the other enemy combatants are or what their plans might be than I have to say I am OK with that. Am I OK with it being done to our guys? Well, it sucks and I don't like it but it is preferable to killing them, right? I think that wiretapping is useful. I think in every case that it can be done with a warrant it should be-I don't like the idea of any government listening to my phone conversations but I also have nothing to hide. Sometimes you need the info and can't get a warrant. I think those situations should be handled case by case. If afterwards someone's rights were violated then due process should be expected. My friends at the ACLU (said with great and heavy sarcasm) could spend their time doing that instead of chasing after folks who are monitoring their teenage children's phone conversations in their own homes to try to keep them out of trouble......but I digress. Imprisoned without trial-I think we need to clarify if we are speaking of people we consider to be enemies and a threat or regular everyday citizens. Don't get me wrong, I get what you are getting at-that eventually it could be me or you imprisoned because some crackpot government thinks we are the enemy. But then what do we do when we run into a group of people that are likely terrorists and rounding them up keeps them from perhaps attacking us? What would be the solution to that?

gemstone-Jack Nicholson in " A Few Good Men" He was awesome in that role.