Online frame sales - dilemma

[allanon]

I have had 4 patients over the last year call my office wanting us to take their PD's for them so they can go get glasses online.

My first thought was liability - not necessarily product liability, but visual outcome (chair time for a rerefract is annoying). Next, to provide them with PD's or not (3 of them had no PD's on file) - followed by how much should I charge..

Like contact lenses and electronics, this industry is one television commercial away from an internet revolution. Agree or not, I really think my staff will have to field more and more calls about PD's for folks.

What's your office policy?

[Happylady]

I was told in Texas that a PD is part of the prescription so I give them a binocular PD.

Just wait, those patients are going to come in with their internet glasses and expect you to adjust them.

[Jacqui]

I charge through the nose for it.

[obxeyeguy]

My policy is no PD, period.

[specs4you]

Say what? Now I tho't I have heard it all! Never heard that one.
I guess I head it off when pts call for Rx's over the phone. Since that
is illegal I just tell them to have the shop or Dr making the gl. request it and I will be happy to fax to them. Without P.D.'s of course. I don't think pts have any business with this....and to top it off, how many times are the p.d.'s wrong............bad employees and co workers guessing half the time during the order because they forgot. I would make a policy that for their protection it must be done with the order wherever that is.

Good grief!~

[Barry Santini]

My policy would (I haven't been asked yet) No PD, period!

Barry

[For-Life]

Tell them to take their own. If they feel they do not need us, they they can do it themselves (note, I am no longer in the industry, so I can make statements like that).

[optical24/7]

Tell them to take their own. If they feel they do not need us, they they can do it themselves (note, I am no longer in the industry, so I can make statements like that).

Ditto. I couldn't say it better!

[Chris Ryser]

When I do a search for on line glasses you can find tons of them. Change the question a bit and others pop up. As the manufacturers and distributors of lenses and frames supply them there is nothing you can do.

Unless someone on the Optiboard publishes a list of these companies that do supply these outfits and then each individual optician or optometrist and also MDs in the retail cut them out as suppliers you will see no action

I believe the Optiboard has enough power these days by getting listed in Google for any optical question you have, to give a scare to these suppliers. This would be one way to go to put on pressure by making it harder to get supplies to the on line outfits.

In the meantime there is nothing you can do to prevent them from operating and advertise cheap jobs and the consumers going there.

One suggestion is, that all of you hanging up a price sheet for the 2 needed services and hang it on the wall in the shop. Agree to charge $5.00 to 10.00 to take the PD and $ 25.00 for verification of on line job including adjustment. (figures pulled out of my hat)

This way you can tell them that the job is OK or totally off, which of course is their problem. I believe that many people will get incorrect Rx glasses and that you can only end up making a profit by treating them nice.

Do not forget, that in a weakeniing economy lots of people will be looking for a better deal, specially glasses that have the reputation of being expensive.

You could always counter the on line place by purchasing rock bottom priced discontinued frames, give them away for free and only charge for the lemses at full price.

[For-Life]

When I do a search for on line glasses you can find tons of them. Change the question a bit and others pop up. As the manufacturers and distributors of lenses and frames supply them there is nothing you can do.

Unless someone on the Optiboard publishes a list of these companies that do supply these outfits and then each individual optician or optometrist and also MDs in the retail cut them out as suppliers you will see no action

I believe the Optiboard has enough power these days by getting listed in Google for any optical question you have, to give a scare to these suppliers. This would be one way to go to put on pressure by making it harder to get supplies to the on line outfits.

In the meantime there is nothing you can do to prevent them from operating and advertise cheap jobs and the consumers going there.

One suggestion is, that all of you hanging up a price sheet for the 2 needed services and hang it on the wall in the shop. Agree to charge $5.00 to 10.00 to take the PD and $ 25.00 for verification of on line job including adjustment. (figures pulled out of my hat)

This way you can tell them that the job is OK or totally off, which of course is their problem. I believe that many people will get incorrect Rx glasses and that you can only end up making a profit by treating them nice.

Do not forget, that in a weakeniing economy lots of people will be looking for a better deal, specially glasses that have the reputation of being expensive.

You could always counter the on line place by purchasing rock bottom priced discontinued frames, give them away for free and only charge for the lemses at full price.

Chris, they are offering glasses for $6.00, including AR. You cannot counter that.

One thing you can do, is let them duke it out. They are trying to reach critical mass, and are using a price penetration strategy to gain that mass. They will drive each other out of business.

[drk]

ForLife is right: "There will be blood". It's dangerous to get into an "industry" on the "upswing". Let them eat each other.

Realize that the reason frames can be "undersold" online is, like contact lenses, much service is packaged with the price.

If you de-link products and services, you will fare better.

It hasn't come to that, yet, but I'll be darned and you'll be darned if you give away professional services, such as providing a p.d. (in states that don't make it part of an Rx).

People must pay for services or services will dry up for lack of service providers. There's no free lunch.

I don't give handouts.



I suggest this transition, for private opticals: quit giving away separate services, like adjustments/repairs/parts. I know this is controversial, but it's a good place to start. Customers' glasses purchased in-house have a service contract built-in. Customers' glasses purchased elsewhere or non-customer: must pay a fee.

This is how optometry survives the online CL supply deflation: separating professional services. This is how opticianry will survive online frame and lens supply.

[Chris Ryser]

Chris, they are offering glasses for $6.00, including AR. You cannot counter that.

One thing you can do, is let them duke it out. They are trying to reach critical mass, and are using a price penetration strategy to gain that mass. They will drive each other out of business.

At that price I have to agree with you.................but have not seen any RX ones on the web myself. At that price they drive themselves out of business, I see them for less at the local flea market, but they are not RX

[For-Life]

Okay, let me ask you guys a question. As mad as I get from suppliers being offered on these sites, I go to them and see every single one listed. I do not know where these guys are getting their product from, but it is happening.

What can our suppliers do to better stop this problem.

Edit - and is there a way that we can report it to regulators

[drk]

Let's see...

Manufacturer sells frame to diverter "X". Diverter "X" calls onliner "Y" and offers product at few percentage points over wholesale...a nice side line business...

Manufacturer is happy, diverter is happy, onliner is happy.

It's called "eating your seed corn". Manufacturer and diverter risks incredible deflation. Onliner is a scumbag, like all online scumbags, and couldn't care less.

How could the manufacturers stop this? Sell direct to the scumbags themselves at prices lower than diverters can. You wait and see.

[HarryChiling]

Let's see...

Manufacturer sells frame to diverter "X". Diverter "X" calls onliner "Y" and offers product at few percentage points over wholesale...a nice side line business...

Manufacturer is happy, diverter is happy, onliner is happy.

It's called "eating your seed corn". Manufacturer and diverter risks incredible deflation. Onliner is a scumbag, like all online scumbags, and couldn't care less.

How could the manufacturers stop this? Sell direct to the scumbags themselves at prices lower than diverters can. You wait and see.

It's much more simple than that, if the manufacturer were to send a cease and desist letter to the online vendor to stop using their bands and or logo's then the problem would stop, but guess what they don't want to stop it. I listed a thread here with a few online vendors on it that were using "Zeiss, Transition, and Varilux" logo's and images all over their site, I contacted and receieve a response from every vendor and they were all the same, we'll look into it. These very same sites are still using the logos and names on their sites, had they been putting mp3's online from a music label they would have had their @sses handed to them on a platter a long time ago. These online vendors make them more money than we do, they have lower remakes, cause they don't care.

Also consider this many of the Lux frames have serial numbers on them, if they sol these frames to a vendor and they turned up in large numbers online then you guessed it easy to track. I just went to www.framesdirect.com and they have a ton of Lux product n their site as well as many of th other vendors.

Here was my previous thread on the manufacturers logo's being used and it was originally posted in december 07: http://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26452 (everyone of those sites still advertises major manufacturer's brands and these manufacturers market themselves as quality products to you and me).

Here is you list:

1. Luxxotica
2. Safilo
3. Zeiss
4. Sola
5. Varilux
6. Nikon
7. Seiko

Those are just the ones from the sites in the thread which is only 3 sites.

[For-Life]

Thing is, you go to framedirect and they have far more than Essilor, Lux, Nikon, Safilo, ect. They have a lot of small companies. Vanni, Silver Dollar, and Tag Heurer. It is not just a few big guys anymore.

[HarryChiling]

Thing is, you go to framedirect and they have far more than Essilor, Lux, Nikon, Safilo, ect. They have a lot of small companies. Vanni, Silver Dollar, and Tag Heurer. It is not just a few big guys anymore.

To me frames are a commodity just like contact lenses, I could care less who sells frame through which venue. The lenses are the items that are of importance, I do not respect a company that sells lenses through an online venue. I could care less where a patinet gets their frames, as long as the online vendor doesn't sell them lenses they ae not doing anything wrong in my eyes.

[LENNY]

Also consider this many of the Lux frames have serial numbers on them, if they sol these frames to a vendor and they turned up in large numbers online then you guessed it easy to track.

I heard that the only line that they realy can trace is Chanel. And its not hot anymore anyway!

[allanon]

We chared 3 people $25 for their PD's. I've decided the policy will now be that we only do PD's on in-house orders for "liability" purposes. Further explanation won't be offered.

[tonyl]

Why stop taking PDs?
Why not use it as a way to get more patients?

I think online dispensing is here to stay and it will always be only a small part of the overall market.

To refuse to provide a service makes us look unprofessional. It appears petty and disruptive - like a small man throwing a tantrum because he can't get his way. Customers who buy online still need optometrists and there will always be demand for retail glasses.

On another point: practitioners who keep buying frame brands that are sold as runouts online have only themselves to blame. If you stock those brands then don't complain. The general public don't understand that they are run-outs. Those companies show by their actions that they are not interested in the independents.

[Wes]

I had a guy come in last week with his wife. She got the exam, he was trying to talk her into getting her glasses online. He got his and they were wonderful. Well, he's a -1.00 ou. Not much to screw up there. Shes wanting a vertically narrow frame, shes a myopic presbyope looking to get a progressive. I told her the measurements she would need to have done in order to have functional progressives, and she asked if I could give them to her. Sorry, I can give her a pd, but theres no way I can give her a seg ht without the frame, so she can buy from me or take her chances with a guess. She bought her ar coated seiko proceed III from us...

Maybe these online guys can make single vision lenses and even possibly flat tops that might work for most people, but theres no way theyre going to have success with progressives.

[Johns]

Why stop taking PDs?
Why not use it as a way to get more patients?






To refuse to provide a service makes us look unprofessional.

Let me guess...oh yeah I see it now, you're an OD!

Use PDs as a way to get patients? What kind of patiients are you looking for? Patients that are clicking away looking for the cheapest deal? Do you honestly think that that type of patient is going to give a rat's pitooty as to what OD flips the lenses in front of his eyes?

If that's the case, get a big banner and hang it in your front window:

Internet Shopper Special
Highest Quality Exams $29!

Of course, you don't want to make it too big; you wouldn't want to be unprofessional.
:hammer:

[tonyl]

Do you honestly think that that type of patient is going to give a rat's pitooty as to what OD flips the lenses in front of his eyes?

:hammer:

Actually I see quite a few patients who come in for the script only. They are quite loyal as far as eye exams go. Often they get glasses by mail order from India. Recently I think scripts have been going to internet companies. The number of scripts is only a two or three per week, but it is part of life. I am mostly fully booked, so it may be justified to not see them - but I still do. They still sometimes buy glasses sometimes and I have done ortho-k on one of them.

Why say I should give discounted exams. The whole point is that online dispensing is here to stay and optoms can still make money out of exams and services. Giving discounted exams to online shoppers would be very stupid.

How would you feel if a service business refused you service (even for a fee) because you didn't buy something from them? Maybe even you would say it was unprofessional. I'm not saying to do it for free, but to charge a reasonable fee for it. eg. Car dealerships don't only service the cars they sold.

In the UK SpecSavers are going to sell glasses online, and provide adjustments, PD & height measurements etc in store.

[HarryChiling]

Actually I see quite a few patients who come in for the script only. They are quite loyal as far as eye exams go. Often they get glasses by mail order from India. Recently I think scripts have been going to internet companies. The number of scripts is only a two or three per week, but it is part of life. I am mostly fully booked, so it may be justified to not see them - but I still do. They still sometimes buy glasses sometimes and I have done ortho-k on one of them.

Why say I should give discounted exams. The whole point is that online dispensing is here to stay and optoms can still make money out of exams and services. Giving discounted exams to online shoppers would be very stupid.

How would you feel if a service business refused you service (even for a fee) because you didn't buy something from them? Maybe even you would say it was unprofessional. I'm not saying to do it for free, but to charge a reasonable fee for it. eg. Car dealerships don't only service the cars they sold.

In the UK SpecSavers are going to sell glasses online, and provide adjustments, PD & height measurements etc in store.

I am an optician and you are optometrist, if we were talkign about online eye exams I would be advocateing wh0ring your ervices out so I don't really understand why you are wh0ring my services out. You could take a different stance of telling them to go see a qualified optician to get a PD, but instead you charge for it as part of your services.

I can't wait till the expensive part of buying glasses is eye exams, then we'll see who starts cutting who's throat.

[rbaker]

I am an optician and you are optometrist, if we were talkign about online eye exams I would be advocateing wh0ring your ervices out so I don't really understand why you are wh0ring my services out. You could take a different stance of telling them to go see a qualified optician to get a PD, but instead you charge for it as part of your services.

I can't wait till the expensive part of buying glasses is eye exams, then we'll see who starts cutting who's throat.

Harry,

As we speak, two young nerds are working in a garage in Palo Alto, California on an inexpensive miniaturized phoropter that plugs into the USB port of any PC. The accompanying "number 1 or number 2" software will illicit an Rx from the end user in about a minute. The final implementation will go on line in a few years from some third world hell hole with no optometry laws and will lead to the demise of refraction as practiced by optometry and merchant opthalmology as we know it today. Getting a pair of glasses will be like getting a pair of shoes. You don't need no stinking help from a health care provider to get a good effective fit.

You just wait and see. He who laughs last, laughs best.
.