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Thread: Attention Opticians: Please stop blaming organizations for our failings.

  1. #101
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Some of you may be old enough to recognize that what I'm about to say had real, tangible value on an optician's CV, and which would assurre a prospective employer that the job candidate in front of you had the right training, and that their skill set would represent exposure and experience at the highest levels of our craft back then:

    "I've worked for Lugene's Opticians for many years."

    Nothing today, no schooling or education, has the same resonance.

    THAT is what we need going forward to ensure that employess make a reasonable wage. THAT should be our goal. Education is definitely part of the recipe, but not the whole.

    B

  2. #102
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    Totally agree with you Barry.

    Working at Lugene Opticians was amazing training. As far as the education piece goes, it is not the whole, but a must have. As manager of Lugene I had to fire 2 opticians because, while they had great customer relation skills and fashion savvy, they did not have enough optical knowledge and it showed in how they presented products and in their redo rates. I hated to fire them (actually cried!), but it was necessary.

    There is no doubt that we (NFOS schools) can improve, and I think the representation at the upcoming summit is broad enough to give us up to the minute insight on what the market (employers) want and need.

    As Warren stated, it is not for us, but for America's next generation of opticians. Improving the profession for the up and coming is a great way to pay it forward.

    : )

    Laurie
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  3. #103
    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    I haven't heard that name (LUGENE) in a while. I worked with them when they had purchased Southern Optical/Kentucky optical in Louiseville a long time ago.

  4. #104
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Thanks, Laurie.

    But...with that said.

    Lugenes is gone. That tells us that skills alone are not enough. You must make money and adapt to changing times.

    B

  5. #105
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    The same held true when other professions sought to upgrade. Optometry was one of them. They will not be deregulated, because they have a solid education and licensing program in every state. Until Opticians can do the same, we face continuing decline.
    Sure, but who cares when you can go black market for the whole shootin' match? Download a refracto-app, and you're golden.

    It's precarious.

    Likewise, who's going to seriously go to opticianry college when optical services are on the wane?

    Instead of advancing the profession, we should be focused on saving our collective hineys.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    The same held true when other professions sought to upgrade. Optometry was one of them. They will not be deregulated, because they have a solid education and licensing program in every state. Until Opticians can do the same, we face continuing decline.
    Sure, but who cares when you can go black market for the whole shootin' match? Download a refracto-app, and you're golden.

    It's precarious.

    Likewise, who's going to seriously go to opticianry college when optical services are on the wane?

    Instead of advancing the profession, we should be focused on saving our collective hineys.
    I sooooo agree with you that I could kiss ya!

    Saving our own hineies indeed!







    I really wanted to stay out of this cluster fromage, but our resident articulate Od inspired me to speak up!

    Every time I read this thread all I hear in my head is:

    The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round!

    Thank you DRK for being the voice of true reason and sanity!

    I'll be saving my own derrière, thank you!

  7. #107
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Nothing today, no schooling or education, has the same resonance. THAT is what we need going forward to ensure that employess make a reasonable wage. THAT
    Keep in mind that it would be infinitely more practical to have "Lugene"-level instructors teaching a classroom of opticians than it would been to have every optician in America apprentice at one of their shops.

    I don't discount the value of learning the practical, hands-on side of opticianry from a craftsman. I started out learning the trade from my father, who in turn got his start in an old AO lab. And if he had been teaching dozens and dozens of opticians the trade, instead of the lucky few who worked under him, I can only imagine how much higher the average level of competency in surrounding areas would be right now.

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  8. #108
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    Great stuff Darryl, thank you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister View Post
    However, if I had to make a recommendation, not a plan, I would probably propose the following short list, just off-the-cuff:

    1. Unify opticianry organizations, in particular the ABO and NAO, and then strengthen this organization. Actively promote membership. Charge members enough to allow the organization to work towards our common goals, while showing members the results of that work.

    2. Seek the support of the American Optometric Association. The fact is, opticians and optometrists often have common interests and face common challenges. What opticianry has failed to do in the past is to convince optometrists that it is actually in optometry's best interest to have licensed opticians.

    3. Encourage either formal education or basic ABO certification and then advanced certification among opticians. Increase consumer awareness of the benefits of a skilled optician. Perhaps even seek a partnership or strategic alliance with paraoptometrics, ophthalmic technologists, and similar ancillary personnel.

    4. As progress is made, work with ophthalmology, optometry, and other organizations (such as the Vision Council) to secure minimal licensing requirements in more states, allowing current opticians to grandfather in where necessary. And, no, you will not get a bill passed, if you start throwing around words like "refracting" at this stage.

    Best regards,
    Darryl

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Sure, but who cares when you can go black market for the whole shootin' match? Download a refracto-app, and you're golden.

    It's precarious. Likewise, who's going to seriously go to opticianry college when optical services are on the wane? Instead of advancing the profession, we should be focused on saving our collective hineys.
    Every industry faces threats, ours in no different. Certified Financial Planners faced decline because of internet brokerages like E*Trade. They upped their testing requirements in response, it became harder to become a CFP, and they are still employed. Accountants were going to lose thier jobs because of Quickbooks, they upped their requirements as well, and they are still employed. Name your profession, it faced its threat. It upped its requirements in response.

    When I started, AO and B&L were going to destroy us, then it was Lenscrafters, then online contact sales, now its online glasses sales, or Essilor, or VSP. There is always a monster in the closet, and those monters may even be real.

    But that can't stop us from moving forward. Education is never a waste of time. Even if someone invented ATM like machines tomarrow that did both refractions and laser surgery in 5 minutes in the Mall, while you were waiting for your orange julius, the educated Optician or Optometrist will fare better in their next position than the uneducated one.

  10. #110
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    Great idea Stan, if I could elaborate longer I would even go for more levels than 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Tabor View Post
    I am not sure if this has been suggested. It seems logical to me that there could be 2 different optician certifications sponsored by an organization like the ABO. One would be a practical exam with no educational requirement. Maybe this certification should require experience or sponship by a certified member. The second would be a certification with a more difficult exam and an educational requirement (either an associate or bachelor degree). This would enable those with practical experience to be certified as well as those with additional education to also be certified, but at a differentiate level. Eventually, the educated level may be able to perform certain functions above and beyond the more basic level.

    Just an idea from a guy in the cheap seats. If we can't figure this out, I am going to start telling my friends to buy eyewear online.........just kidding.

    Regards,

    Stosh Tabor

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister View Post
    I disagree with your argument regarding the availability of optical programs, which I see as a circular argument. We don't have enough schools, because most opticians have not sought formal education. In fact, we actually had more optical programs in the past, although several have shut down over the years. Even now, accredited distance learning optical programs have made opticianry available to just about anyone.
    I wanted to look at some comparisons of another industry with Optical and school numbers.

    Dental Hygienists have an established 2 year degree program and good pay of about $33 an hour (over $40 an hour on the West Coast). Currently in the US according the US Department of Labor there are about 180,000 Dental Hygienists. There are 337 fully accredited 2 year educational programs for them in the US.

    According to US Labor statics there are 63,000 Dispensing Opticians, and 30,000 Lens Manufacturing Technician positions (we used to call Bench Opticians). What the Bureau of Labor statics does not track are the myriad of other people: Frame Stylists, Frame Consultants, Apprentices, Optometric Technicians, Optometric Assistants, Contact Lens Fitters, Billing Specialists, and Office Managers. They all perform at least some of the tasks of the Optician for part or all of their job. Each office is different in what people do what so it’s impossible to quantify with accuracy, but let’s take a conservative guess and say we have about 30,000 of those people. That gives us about 120,000 people who could be candidates for a 1-2 year Optical Degree program.

    I could only find 25 Schools in the US that have an accredited 2 year Opticianry Degree program (I didn’t count TOPS, or 2 schools in California because they were 10 months or less. Warren mentioned more but I could not locate them). If we use the 120K number for total Optical people, that would give us a need of 222 of Opticianry Programs we would need. If we use the more conservative 93K number we would still need 175.

    That puts us at about 200-150 schools less than we really need to actually educate Opticians. Let’s assume 4 instructors and one administrator for a comprehensive program. That means we also need about 500-800 qualified Optical instructors to staff those theoretical schools.

    Then if we look more closely at those 25 schools, 9 of them are in only 3 states. That leaves 16 Optical schools to cover 47 States. There are only 5 Full 2 Year Optical Programs in the US west of the Mississippi River to cover an area larger than Europe. California with a population of 37,691,912 has no 2 year Optical program in the entire state, and those few there primarily serve Workers Comp retraining programs.

    Despite the increased prevalence of online education, most students still prefer to attend class, and most prefer something within 25 miles of their home. Although its a circular argument, we simply need a lot more schools if we want to educate more Opticians. Its just math.

  12. #112
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    I like sharpstick math.

    And...I am steadfastly against grandfathering *any* opticians into certification or licensure w/o formal education.

    B
    Last edited by Barry Santini; 04-16-2012 at 10:08 PM.

  13. #113
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    Look to the NFOS site and, if memory serves, there are close to 40 programs. The COA accredits only 25 or so. The link for the NFOS is www.nfos.org. I did look at it, and I see one additional program, Sharpstick, yours, that is not even a member. You really ought to do that.......it is not an expensive organization to join and faculty can share much.

  14. #114
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    I can't really imagine that online programs would be beneficial to the first two years of an optical program, since much of what we do is so hands on. However, I would love an online program that fills in the gap between the 2 year degree and a 4 year degree.

    Thanks for the post Sharpy, it was pretty interesting. FYI, I had looked into going to a hygienist program, and it was about 20 grand for the program. The optical progam I went to was, and still is within a couple hundred bucks, $1250/semester.

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    OptiLady,
    You do not have to imagine... Call Bill, Laurie, Yvonne, or some of the others who are faculty at these schools and learn about what they do. Having learned in the classroom, on the job and online with strong internet tools (GoToMeeting, Blackboard...), there is much to be said for learning on the net. Do it on your own schedule. No reason to miss a class, the same class can be gone through more than once, ask questions during and after the session and receive a response from the teacher, ask a question during class anonymously (in case you are nervous about asking it - we all know this happens)...
    I will be the first to say that distance learning is not for everyone. That said, it is a terrific opportunity for many.
    Remember that the online learning is supplemented with a hands on proctor who follows the course curriculum and reports back on progress the student is making... There is much more to it than this, and as I mentioned earlier, you do not have to imagine, just give them a call, and maybe ask to sit in on a class, from your home...

  16. #116
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Although its a circular argument, we simply need a lot more schools if we want to educate more Opticians. Its just math.
    I think you missed my entire point. Let's assume that your math is correct. Even with all of those 120,000 opticians who would need 150 to 200 more schools in order to seek education, we are still losing opticianry schools due to lack of interest, not creating them. And very few existing schools have so many students enrolled that they must turn many other potential students away.

    Take your example of California, for instance. At one point, the state had at least two schools of opticianry. Both have since closed due to declining enrollment. The problem is not the lack of schools, if existing schools do not even see enough enrollment to sustain their programs.

    And...I am steadfastly against grandfathering *any* opticians into certification or licensure w/o formal education.
    Barry, Don't you work in a licensed state? So what point is there in pursuing any course of action that could reduce the chance for an unlicensed state to increase their professional status?

    Without a grandfather clause, it would be virtually impossible for a state to push licensing legislation through. It's too easy for the opposition to argue that it will leave the industry without a sufficient labor pool.

    And what would be the point? You don't want to see uncertified or uneducated opticians grandfathered in as a licensed optician, but you will settle for seeing every optician in the state working as an unlicensed optician? Isn't that like "cutting off your nose to spite your face?"

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  17. #117
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister View Post
    Barry, Don't you work in a licensed state? So what point is there in pursuing any course of action that could reduce the chance for an unlicensed state to increase their professional status?

    Without a grandfather clause, it would be virtually impossible for a state to push licensing legislation through. It's too easy for the opposition to argue that it will leave the industry without a sufficient labor pool.

    And what would be the point? You don't want to see uncertified or uneducated opticians grandfathered in as a licensed optician, but you will settle for seeing every optician in the state working as an unlicensed optician? Isn't that like "cutting off your nose to spite your face?"

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    I do, and the testing has been dumbed down so far that it is a joke. I might grandfather the people in, but with the caveat that they'd HAVE to take the license exam and pass within 5 years in license commencement.

    B

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post
    I can't really imagine that online programs would be beneficial to the first two years of an optical program, since much of what we do is so hands on. However, I would love an online program that fills in the gap between the 2 year degree and a 4 year degree.

    Thanks for the post Sharpy, it was pretty interesting. FYI, I had looked into going to a hygienist program, and it was about 20 grand for the program. The optical progam I went to was, and still is within a couple hundred bucks, $1250/semester.

    Have you taken an online course? From your response, probably not. Online education has long been proven a valid educational delivery system, and there are several examples of fine programs for Opticians. I do have a question, however. You chose your field of study because of the cost? If so, that is a real shame. I would hope that at some point we can attract folks who want to study Ophthalmic Optics, not those who are looking to get into a profession on the cheap, ot those who can't get into other programs. There are a number of dental hygeine programs at community colleges all across America that charge the same tuition as any other program. I would encourage you to look further if that is really where your interest lies.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Have you taken an online course? From your response, probably not. Online education has long been proven a valid educational delivery system, and there are several examples of fine programs for Opticians. I do have a question, however. You chose your field of study because of the cost? If so, that is a real shame. I would hope that at some point we can attract folks who want to study Ophthalmic Optics, not those who are looking to get into a profession on the cheap, ot those who can't get into other programs. There are a number of dental hygeine programs at community colleges all across America that charge the same tuition as any other program. I would encourage you to look further if that is really where your interest lies.

    No, I have never taken an online course. However, during my two year program, I worked in a lab at LensCrafter's, where I had 40 hours a week manufacturing lenses. I marked up, blocked, generated, polished, inspected, edged, put together, and fixed thousands of pairs of glasses. In addition, at my school, I did minimal lab work (edged and blocked lenses), did a kajillion adjustments, keratometry, slit lamp evals, I/R's, dispenses, etc.

    I am well aware of how advanced the new online schooling is, and would be very receptive to taking classes that way. However, I don't expect that many students would be interested in buying their own Lensometers and demo lenses, in addition to all the things a classroom education can provide for hands on learning. This was my only reason for an opinion against online education for basic opticianry skills. I understand that many programs have lab hours required, where you learn at home and apply it in the class room. I suppose that would be acceptable. I'm slightly biased since for 2 years of my life I did nothing but eat, sleep, breath eyeglasses and contact lenses.

    As for the cost, no, I didn't base what I wanted to do when I was 19 on the fact that the cost of education at a community college was very reasonable. However, at this stage of the game, you bet I would consider what I chose to make my career on whether I could afford the schooling or not. Taking out a bunch of debt at this point in my life doesn't interest me in the least.

  20. #120
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    OptiLady,
    The distance learning students are not expected to purchase their own lensometers, lenses... They have the obligation to work with the faculty and connect with a qualified licensed optician to train/proctor them in the hands on skills section of the learning. This would be done in the proctors retail/lab location.

  21. #121
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Perhaps it's time for a representative from both NFOS and COA to jump in and provide some explanations to those OB'ers who have not been exposed to distance ed and the requirements for accreditation.
    Having been a commissioner on the COA, I am well aware of the requirements for accreditation for both on-campus and distance ed programs. They are significant. Those who continue to believe that graduates have no or limited dispensing experience have probably never walked into the well-run clinics that COA schools are required to operate or understand the concept of externships that are a requirement for graduation.
    As with any arguement, it is best to come prepared.

  22. #122
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    CC,
    Great point: Here is the link to the COA Essentials for those who have interest: http://www.coaccreditation.com/essen...dispensing.pdf

    Joe D.

  23. #123
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    About Distance Education:

    (Thanks CC for prompting me to jump in, I should have jumped in sooner)... We are gearing up for final exams, and I am on the Internet with my students more than ever. So, I occasionally pop-in here, but haven't written much. And, my increasing Presbyopia is giving me a headache! ; )

    We (Hillsborough Community College in Tampa FL) have been offering our Opticianry AS degree via distance learning since 2000, graduated our first class in 2002. We (NFOS) decided to develop our materials for online delivery at a meeting in 1998. We worked our optical tails off developing materials for two years prior to enrolling our first students.

    Yes, we do use blackboard and other learning management systems. We created videos in a studio-classroom for each and every lesson. And, we did not simply video-tape our live lectures, but created each and every lesson for each course looking directly into the camera, so the student feels engaged...it appears that we are looking right at them.

    When students in our live lectures asked great questions, I would create an additional video just for the online students with the questions, and the answers. (I actually pretended there was a live question, would pause, and say, 'that is a good question, let me repeat it)'...so that the online students would benefit from that as well.

    ALL of our students, whether campus-based or online, take their quizzes online. Then, the midterms are mailed to the sponsor/proctor, and mailed back to us, un-touched by the student.

    We have amazing technology that allows us to make videos of live lensometry (actually seeing in the reticle with movement), frame fitting/adjusting with real people, as well as edging, biomicroscopy, refracting and more. Our equipment allows us to have interactive smart-boards, and a digital overhead projection system that is like a virtual chalk-board. My college has sent in a camera crew to my labs on many occasions to shoot videos of hands-on competencies, focusing in on measurements, adjustments, and more.

    All students who do not take their labs on campus must have a sponsor/optician help them practice all of the hands on competencies. The sponsor signs off on each and every competency. Additionally, no matter where the student lives, they must travel to our campus for written and hands-on testing each and every semester, which is 6 semesters (Fall, Spring, and a short Summer semester).

    Our Opticianry degree is 72 credit hours, 60 of them are OPT and the remaining 12 are general edu courses. One of their OPT courses is 'Directed Research', where they must develop an entire business plan and show a portfolio for their 'business', including inventory, costs, bank loan, decor, an actual location, rent, and how many pair they must sell per day/week to survive. This gives them an appreciation for the bottom line as well. They must present their business with a white-board and back-up data on final exam day.

    We have an articulation agreement with the University of South Florida, where our students can enter as Juniors, take business courses, and matriculate through for a BS in Business Management.

    We primarily serve Florida residents, however, we have graduated students from South/Latin America, California, Texas, Ohio, Michigan...even Japan! Each student had to travel to our campus each semester for final written exams and hands-on practicals. I cannot tell you how many times a student has told me that they have been in the field for years already, and did not know what they did not know!

    I wish we could have this conversation face-to-face, as it is hard to project my passion for formal education through typed words, without being accused of acting high-and-mighty. For the people here who know me, they can attest that I am one of the most down-to-earth people you will ever meet (I was raised in Maine for goodness sake!!!) (yes, we had plumbing...indoors!)

    It would be great for opticians here to take just one course at any of the NFOS schools...I think you would be surprised. Optical education is not the 'old-school' that people think...we have evolved. Yes, we can always improve, but the base of an AS in Opticianry is a great start, and can be done!

    Sorry if this was too long of a response, I could actually go on and on...

    Bottom line... People who go through a curriculum as I described will have the base to be the best future opticians. Their redo-rates will be lower, as they will be well-versed in optical science and technology, and will have had many people check their work prior to graduating. Can we guarantee a super-star? No. The additional qualities of salesmanship, fashion savvy, communication skills, and all of the other qualities to be a super-star in ANY FIELD have alot to do with the person.

    I cannot imagine anyone being against formal education for our FUTURE opticians...it blows my mind.

    Big Hugs and Smooches,

    : )

    Laurie
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  24. #124
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    FYI ALL:
    The Summit is one week away. Does anyone have anything to add?
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  25. #125
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    Well, since you asked…
    Wes, the condensed private opticianry school option needs top be put on the table with respect to the 28 unlicensed States, regardless of those whose jobs hinge on the 2-year AAS model.
    It used to be that if you can find a way to do virtually anything either better or quicker, it would be acknowledged and the world would beat a path to your door.
    But, maybe not opticianry.
    IMHO, unlicensed States will never adopt any 2-year program, but maybe a 6-9-month intensive program can be a viable alternative.
    to having no regulation at all. The public deserves to be served by qualified personnel, and any formal training, followed by a rigorous Advanced exam will benefit both the public interest and the optical industry.

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    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-11-2000, 11:39 AM

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